Seas Excel W18EX001 vs Scan-Speak 18M/4631T00

[3wayaddict]

For bass alignment you probably don't want the configuration that achieves the lowest F3 in simulation. In most smaller to medium sized rooms this will give you a booming one-note bass due to room modes. Only in very large rooms with the speakers positions significantly out from the walls (1m+ from rear wall, several metres from side walls) does the alignment with the lowest F3 sound balanced.

My experience is the same as many others - a practical alignment is about midway between a sealed box, and a ported box that achieves the lowest F3. This means slightly smaller box and tuned a bit lower than you would when trying to achieve the lowest F3. Of course, if you don't know what is going to be suitable build the box larger and add fill later to make it smaller if the bass is too much.

Are you sure you ment "smaller box tuned lower" and not tuned higher? Taking a smaller box and then tuning lower doesn't seem that logical to me but if you say so.

What would you recommend then? I can only guess what would a good box. I do want to go low though. The Seas woofers already don't go as low as previously considered drivers.

 

[3wayaddict]

Well believe it or not, I might be tending to change drivers again. When tuning a smaller enclosure for the Seas woofers I figured MW19P-4's go about as low as the Seas would go but will quite obviously do it with better quality because of their moving mass which is two and a half times lower and because they are Satori's. Thoughts?

 

[Jeroen Mantel]

The MW19's are an excellent choice, like the mw16, they are very low distorting drivers.

I use them in my second system, a 3-way with a 3 inch dome midrange (from the Neumann KH310 studio monitors) and a Satori TW29 tweeter.

They sound very natural, and the bass is very tight.

My good friend Robbin(Robbintip) also has 8 x Satori MW19, he wil soon combine them with his MW16's and SB26ADC tweeters.

Zoals Robbin al voorstelde mag je best een keer bij hem of mij komen kijken/luisteren als je dat wilt. Robbin woont in Hoofddorp en ik in Amsterdam.
Ik zou je eventueel ook kunnen helpen met metingen doen.
Heb een zeer hoogwaardige meetmicrofoon van Sennheiser en veel ervaring met diverse meetprogramma's en simulatiesofware.

Groeten, Jeroen

 

[3wayaddict]

The MW19's are an excellent choice, like the mw16, they are very low distorting drivers.

I use them in my second system, a 3-way with a 3 inch dome midrange (from the Neumann KH310 studio monitors) and a Satori TW29 tweeter.

They sound very natural, and the bass is very tight.

My good friend Robbin(Robbintip) has 8 x Satori MW19, he wil soon combine them with his MW16's and SB26ADC tweeters.

Zoals Robbin al voorstelde mag je best een keer bij hem of mij komen kijken/luisteren als je dat wilt. Robbin woont in Hoofddorp en ik in Amsterdam.
Ik zou je eventueel ook kunnen helpen met metingen doen en de geschikte crossovers/eq instellen.
Heb een zeer hoogwaardige meetmicrofoon van Sennheiser en veel ervaring met diverse meetprogramma's en simulatiesofware.

Groeten, Jeroen

Yeah, I've just changed drivers again but now it's definitive! I've already tuned an enclosure. In 80 L, which is over 7 L smaller than the intentional box, they go acceptably low enough and of course it's not just numbers which tell how bassy the bass sounds. In the real world bass coming out of the Focal Aria 948's also sounds more powerful than that coming out of a Buchardt S400's while the Buchardt's have an F3 of 33 Hz and the Focal's of only 37 Hz. Since the MW19P-4's don't move as much air as the Seas CD22RN4X's they don't need as big of a port and the the tuning frequency is also higher so the 9,6 cm port has to be just 18 cm long. This also saves space and because it is so short it can be rear ported instead of bottom ported. This also saves 2,5 cm height since there doesn't have to be a slot between the main cabinet and ground/foot. It is also way simpler to build and I can reach the port would I ever have to adjust something. In total the speakers could be 10 cm shorter which is nice because of the slanted walls of my tiny attic room. Then the drivers will be lower but the Scan-Speak tweeter is 4 cm smaller than the Fountek and because it's a dome it obviously has way better vertical dispersion and the MW19P-4's are also like 5 cm smaller than the SB23's or CD22's and the tweeter doesn't necessarily have to be at ear height (1,1 m for me). If you look up some of the best brands which have the mid woofer above the tweeter (Mission, Kroma, Magico etc.) (almost) none of them have speakers with the tweeter even above 1 m. Most Mission speakers are barely 1,1 m in total. I've also been to a couple of hifi stores for advice. At Chattelin they had the Kroma Audio Carmen's. The tweeters on those thing are at chest height, but Kroma know what they are doing quite well! At another store where they do a little but of diy (not much and mainly turntables) I asked what they thought and they found 1,1 m to be way to high.
Long story short. It's nice to save some room.

Naar Amsterdam zou een leuk uitstapje zijn. Misschien dat ik eens langs kom, ik heb toch vakantie. Als je me zo zou willen helpen met het maken van de crossovers zou dat echt supervet zijn! Met dit forum kom ik wel ergens maar met een ervaren iemand werken zal vast een stuk soepeler gaan. Het zal wel nog even duren tot we dat kunnen gaan doen, eerst de drivers maar bij elkaar sparen.

 

[3wayaddict]

I can't believe myself but I actually just discovered the WO24P-4's might seem better than the MW19P-4's. To my surprise they have an F3 of about a Hertz and a half lower than the MW19P-4 disregarding the lower Sd/Vb ratio, they in simulation have a better impuls respons than the MW19P-4's disregarding the more than double moving mass, probably because of the smaller Sd/Vb ratio, I saw they are actually less expensive than the MW19P-4's, I thought they are more expensive which was the main thing pushing me away from them and (and this is the least important consideration but anyway) even bigger 9,5" woofers obviously look even cooler than 7'5".
What would you say? A couple of people in this thread quite encouraged me to take the WO24P-4 earlier in this thread. Are they really as good as they seem and would they be a even better choice than the MW19P-4's?

left: WO24P-4
right: MW19P-4

 

[Robbintip]

Both Jeroen and I have both the WO24's and MW19's.
If you are making a threeway, definately choose WO24.
I used the WO24 as upper-bass unit, while it is much more suitable for subwoofer use. That's why I will exchange them for 4x MW19 per side.

In a 3-way, WO24 is the better choice, as you will cross lower to the MW16.
Distortion is lower on WO24 till about 85Hz than MW19 or MW16.
Between 85 and 180, MW19 will have lower distortion than WO24 or MW16.
Above 180, MW16 will have lowest distortion.

In practice, differences between all of these drivers at low volume will be difficult to tell, so don't stress too much about it.
That being said, my WO24P-4's will be for sale. So let me know if you are interested.

 

[3wayaddict]

They make 8" look tiny LOL

 

[tonza75]

A 10" or 12" 15" sub/bass can be more tiny. Depends on enclosure design in 3 or 4 way.

 

[3wayaddict]

Yesterday I was bord so I thought I should just cycle around and take a look in the hifi stores around town. I came to Chattelin, they were cleaning up and they threw away a pair of speakers. I asked what was wrong with them and all that was wrong was that one woofer was blown. I asked the fabricator if they could send me a new one. It will arrive tomorrow. So now I just got a pair of audio Physic Step 3's for free! They already sound pretty amazing if you ignore the railing of the woofer at certain frequencies. The "No loss of fine detail" phrase is right. This doesn't really have to do anything with the build but I thought you might be interested.

 

[Bill poster]

the mw19p-4 and WO24 are really for different applications.. one is a high sensitivity midbass for an enclosure of around 18-20 litres, limited bass extension. The other hits the mid 20s, needs a box 3 times as big

 

[system7]

Yesterday I was bord so I thought I should just cycle around and take a look in the hifi stores around town. I came to Chattelin, they were cleaning up and they threw away a pair of speakers. I asked what was wrong with them and all that was wrong was that one woofer was blown. I asked the fabricator if they could send me a new one. It will arrive tomorrow. So now I just got a pair of audio Physic Step 3's for free! They already sound pretty amazing if you ignore the railing of the woofer at certain frequencies. The "No loss of fine detail" phrase is right. This doesn't really have to do anything with the build but I thought you might be interested.

I am fascinated, 3wayaddict. You picked up a $3,000 pair of speakers for nothing beyond a replacement midbass due to a fortuitous bike ride! Since you are a newish member, I must tell you that audio legend Joachim Gerhard (an occasional member here) used to have a close association with Audio Physic.

These days he chooses his words carefully about a previous employer. This is life. He has moved on. Perhaps it's time to take stock of what Fate has dealt you?

Those little Audio Physic Step 3 might be an education. Spare them bass frequencies and they will doubtless sound better still. This is the 3 way principle in a nutshell. It's simple physics. Excursion and mechanical loss is the enemy of the clean sound.

 

[3wayaddict]

I know right. I already knew they were at Chattelin for a reason but when I looked up their price I was even more amazed! I already started getting ideas of using them as mains and build a very good sealed sub and spent a little more on a hifi stereo amp to go with tham but that's not going to happen. They sound amazing but I'm pretty sure that if I succeed to build a good crossover with the help of you guys my towers can sound even better. And not only that, I'm building those towers myself because I like it and do it for fun. If I weren't building speakers because I like it and it's my passion I would have already bought branded speakers a long time ago.
I'll use them until I've finished the towers. Then I will use them as secondary system at my dad's house (separated parents).

 

[3wayaddict]

I've redesigned the port a bit. I thought they would have 9,6 cm ID tubes at the hardware store but they actually don't so I had to go with the 10,6 cm anyway. Doesn't matter, it only makes for a lower port velocity. I tuned the port a little lower than the optimum as you said. The lowest F3 would be at a tuning frequency of around 32 Hz. I tuned it at 28 Hz for an F3 of 32,8 Hz. The box is 87 L again. The 9,5" can use/handle a little bigger of a box and they needed it to fit on the baffle anyway.

The woofers will no more be coupled with the additional stut around the magnet and the mid woofer will no more be decoupled because of the complicated basket going over the magnets.

 

[system7]

I think you remind me of my young great nephews.

The honest engineer, who is doubtless destined for Heaven, asks him or herself "What works?".

In the case of the home Hifi, the room is definitely the monster.

Alan Shaw of Harbeth discusses the matters that matter here: YouTube

I also like young Jack Oclee-Brown of KEF. YouTube

You might think I am going cheapish with this Visaton speaker:

But really, I have put my Heart and Soul into it. If you ask me why Britain won WW2, I have to say it was the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. Such engineering excellence. Suitably transcribed into the Mosquito bomber and the US Mustang B.

 

[3wayaddict]

Correction, I didn't accurately recalculate the volume because I was lazy and I assumed it would be about the same as with the previous version for the SB23's but I forgot that that was bottom ported with a way longer port and had way more bracing and bigger magnets in it. Now I recalculated it for the WO24P-4 version and it is well over 95 L. That is quite a lot bigger but I think I'll just keep it. The WO24P-4's can still easily handle such a bigger volume. The tuning frequency for the lowest F3 would be 31 Hz with an F3 of 30,2 Hz so I tuned it a little lower at 27,11 Hz for a port of exactly 30 cm which will give an F3 of 31,33 Hz. The impuls respons remains practically identical.

 

[3wayaddict]

Hello guys, back at it again. Is anybody stil alive in this thread?

I know, I can't believe myself but I'm questioning the drivers again. Do you think the Scan-Speak Revelator D2904/710002 is better than the Illuminator D3004/662000?
I'm asking this because I will be buying drivers over the next month and now Soundimports, my favorite speaker driver distributor of the Netherlands, recently added SB-Acoustics, Scan-Speak and Seas to their stock and the first two weeks or so there will be a lot of discount on those brands. This saves me a lot of money! And now that I saw al those low prices on Scan-Speak drivers I just went to Zaph and check if there still is a better Scan-Speak tweeter than the D3004 that I could take and I noticed the Revelator has slightly lower distortion in the intended range, some specs are better and it still seems to get the superior review from Zaph.

Another Question. The reason I still had the DSP on my wishlist was because Soundimports sells it and because I return so many products to them I still have like €220,- on a buffer which I can only spend at them. Now that Soundimports also sells other products I need and can spend that buffer on the drivers. I'm no more forced to spend €220,- on a DSP and I thought that if I tread my room or future room and place the speakers correctly, DSP is unnecessary and I could better spend that €220,- on the speakers or amp. I was also thinking to scrape the measuring mic of my wishlist as well because if I can design the crossover with the help and mic of you who offered that (I'm kind of counting on you ) and don't need it to measure my room for the DSP, it's a waste of €105,-.

 

[krivium]

Don t scrap the measuring mic. Maybe you ll find this is one of the most important tool you ll use. Especially now you admited that acoustic is an issue.

So you are going for a next run in circle about drivers? ;P

 

[3wayaddict]

I know but here the differences between the drivers seem quite obvious and there isn’t much discussion between which type or brand of driver is better since they are the same brand, same principle and measurement graphs and quotes from Zaph seem to quite obviously say the Revelator is better.

 

[Rokytheman]

In my experience a good crossover can take at least as long as building the cabinet. Typically it takes many iterations which equals many hours of fun and sometimes frustrations.

You most definitely NEED a measuring mic. This should be on the very top of your list. UMIK1 from miniDSP works very well and it is cheap.

There has been a lot of good suggestions in this thread in regards to drivers. You can get the same or 90 % of the performance or more with cheaper drivers.

But the one most important factor is to spend effort on diffraction and the crossover.

I would rather use cheap amplifiers and a good DSP than vise versa. Good amplifiers does not cost much these days. I suggest buying second hand.

I have a feeling that this has been proposed several times before.

 

[3wayaddict]

Okay so the UMIK-1 is back on the list and I’ll stick with the Crown XLI800 in stead of Emotiva A-100.
I know the Crossover is super important but buying the just slightly more expensive Revelator tweeter doesn’t go at the cost of the crossover. I’m working within a budget and trust me the crossover is all right. I already had calculated a few hundred euros for the crossover and with the discount on the drivers and €120,- I saved I can buy the Revelator tweeters and there will still be more of the budget left for the crossover than before. The price of the Revelator tweeters doesn’t go at the cost of the crossover AT ALL. The question here is if the Revelator tweeters are better than the Illuminator pure and alone, away from the crossover and all. The Revelator is a bit more expensive but relatively, with the discount really not that much. This is not a decision of paying more but just a better driver.
I’m gonna repeat the question: Is the Revelator tweeter better than the Illuminator, as a driver?!

My budget is around €2.000,-

Previous setup with DSP, Illuminator tweeters and without discount:
-4: WO24P-4 €664,-
-2: MW16P-4 €266,-
-2: D3004/662000 €415,40
-MiniDSP 2x4 €119,95
-UMIK-1 €104,95
-XLI800 €220,-
total left for crossover: €209,70

New setup without DSP, Revelator tweeters and with discount:
-4: WO24P-4 €632,55
-2: MW16P-4 €252,92
-2: D2904/710002 €467,92
-UMIK-1 €104,95
-XLI800 €220,-
total left for crossover: €321,66

So there is still a lot left for the crossover.