Be careful who you listen too. My good friend wilbur-x who lives just over the Fjord from the SEAS factory at Moss is a great enthusiast for SEAS metal drivers. But frankly his current idea crashes and burns:
Some work needed there, IMO.
Robbintip talks a lot of experienced sense. wallacefi is right about ribbons that can dig low to 1.8kHz. That is what I was talking about here:
With the bass taken care of elsewhere, this type of speaker is exceptional. The scanspeak example I heard was wall-mounted with 4" of gyproc lining the room.
But really, three-ways have a good theory (BELOW!) behind them. It's all about the midrange freed of duties high and low. And currently there are many exceptionally good 4-5" optimised mids. Shorter voicecoils, lighter cones, flat response. Probably running from 500-3500 Hz. Everything else is then just easy.
Some work needed there, IMO.
Robbintip talks a lot of experienced sense. wallacefi is right about ribbons that can dig low to 1.8kHz. That is what I was talking about here:
With the bass taken care of elsewhere, this type of speaker is exceptional. The scanspeak example I heard was wall-mounted with 4" of gyproc lining the room.
But really, three-ways have a good theory (BELOW!) behind them. It's all about the midrange freed of duties high and low. And currently there are many exceptionally good 4-5" optimised mids. Shorter voicecoils, lighter cones, flat response. Probably running from 500-3500 Hz. Everything else is then just easy.
Attachments
Be careful who you listen too. My good friend wilbur-x who lives just over the Fjord from the SEAS factory at Moss is a great enthusiast for SEAS metal drivers. But frankly his current idea crashes and burns:
Some work needed there, IMO.
Robbintip talks a lot of experienced sense. wallacefi is right about ribbons that can dig low to 1.8kHz. That is what I was talking about here:
With the bass taken care of elsewhere, this type of speaker is exceptional. The scanspeak example I heard was wall-mounted with 4" of gyproc lining the room.
But really, three-ways have a good theory (BELOW!) behind them. It's all about the midrange freed of duties high and low. And currently there are many exceptionally good 4-5" optimised mids. Shorter voicecoils, lighter cones, flat response. Probably running from 500-3500 Hz. Everything else is then just easy.
My good gentleman: I pointed out that this XO is not verified, and for a good reason: This xo is a protype from Wilmslow Audio aimed for just this combination of specific drivers. We will for sure test and measure the XO in duty, keep it if good, maybe modify it or--- scrap it. I'm also a bit worried about the inductor coils quality, leads thin as those from resistors. Please tell me about your objections regarding this prototype, I will listen in a humble way (over a cup of tea)
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Agreed. You have a DSP - where it is easy to control the breakup and still take full advantage of all the good performance in the Seas. I did the same with my Accuton C82-T8. In the beginning I didn't know this and thought I needed a differnet driver. But after I learned to measure and control the driver, it sounds great
Almost all drivers have some kind of problem that needs to be taken care of - so it's not only hard cones - everything breaks up at some point and directivity/beaming, is directly related to size - not price or special materials.
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These sort of threads always turn into a wish list from members of drivers that promise the moon...
Often full of schoolboy crossover mistakes and a plain lack of understanding of the basic principles.
Wilbur-x, your trial crossover is an 8 ohm jobbie with no rolloff on the mid, wrong phase and no breakup attention. And TBH, I can't imagine why anyone would want 4X 6" drivers and a tweeter working at 2kHz.
The 3-way idea works like this:
Bit of time alignment can help. But all built around the smallish flat specialist mid.
I have a take-away for you, 3wayaddict. This design is doable for you: Ellam-FLEX-3W
4 ohm bass! Reasonable 400Hz and 2.5kHz XO. You can fiddle with the whole thing to your taste. But built around a concept that works.
Often full of schoolboy crossover mistakes and a plain lack of understanding of the basic principles.
Wilbur-x, your trial crossover is an 8 ohm jobbie with no rolloff on the mid, wrong phase and no breakup attention. And TBH, I can't imagine why anyone would want 4X 6" drivers and a tweeter working at 2kHz.
The 3-way idea works like this:
Bit of time alignment can help. But all built around the smallish flat specialist mid.
I have a take-away for you, 3wayaddict. This design is doable for you: Ellam-FLEX-3W
4 ohm bass! Reasonable 400Hz and 2.5kHz XO. You can fiddle with the whole thing to your taste. But built around a concept that works.
for the bass dual SB23MFCL45-4's still seem better to me, especially in terms of price and value but is see he uses a transmission line. I've been looking into those because they seem to be a very good principle but I have no idea how to make them. Would a transmission line be an option with two SB23MFCL45-4's? I've got quite some space in the cabinet to work with. I could also just take a bass reflex and tune it a little higher so the resonant frequency is above 300 Hz. If take my 88 L box with a 11,8 cm tube and tune it to 26 Hz. the tube will be 45,5 cm, resonant frequency 339 Hz and I would still have an F3 of 24 Hz. So I could cross at 300 Hz taking practically anything that could be considered bass away from the mid.
I couldn't really find any reviews of it but it's still flat at 300 Hz. I know right? They're just amazing subwoofers with some very good specs including Xmax for a very good price. They, as subwoofers, are pretty much the best option for me out there, disregarding their price. There are very few subs out there that will go deeper but they are twice as expensive at a minimum but I really don't seek any better performance than these. In my system at full volume they will move like 10 mm of the 24 mm they can take!
I actually found an even cheaper website than that Belgian one: Loudspeaker freaks Home page . Here four SB23's are €400,01. They were €472,- at that Belgian site! I was considering taking the D3004/660000 instead of the 662000 to save some money because the slight difference in respons between them is just a case of correcting with the crossover but at loudspeakerfreaks the 662000 cost even less than the 660000's would on speaker en co. so I will take them for sure, it's slightly better sound for less! Loudspeakerfreaks saves me so much I could afford two Crown XLS 1002's so I have the DSP for both the subs and top would I need it.
I at first wanted the XLi because they are class AB so the NeoX3.0 won't sound to bright but now that I have domes class D should be acceptable. The XLS series gets reviewed as sounding amazing, being a big bang for the buck and is often used as a budget hifi power amp.
I actually found an even cheaper website than that Belgian one: Loudspeaker freaks Home page . Here four SB23's are €400,01. They were €472,- at that Belgian site! I was considering taking the D3004/660000 instead of the 662000 to save some money because the slight difference in respons between them is just a case of correcting with the crossover but at loudspeakerfreaks the 662000 cost even less than the 660000's would on speaker en co. so I will take them for sure, it's slightly better sound for less! Loudspeakerfreaks saves me so much I could afford two Crown XLS 1002's so I have the DSP for both the subs and top would I need it.
I at first wanted the XLi because they are class AB so the NeoX3.0 won't sound to bright but now that I have domes class D should be acceptable. The XLS series gets reviewed as sounding amazing, being a big bang for the buck and is often used as a budget hifi power amp.
But now I realize that Crown XLi's with a MiniDSP 2x4 are still less expensive but class AB amps are still superior over class D and DSP wise the MiniDSP will probably be easier to use and setup than the DSP's on the Crowns because the DSP's on the Crowns are individual and I'll have to set the gain so that one won't be playing louder than the other. The MiniDSP is one unit and this will all be handled automatically or at least easier. So then I think if I won't use the MiniDSP as the main crossover for the high-pass but just as an additional EQ (if needed at all) and use the MiniDSP as the crossover just for the subs and then take XLi amps that would save even more money, the class AB amps will probably sound even better and the DSP will be easier to use. I think that will be a better setup.
In fact the Ellam Flex uses a purer heavy coned 4 ohm bass by the look of it: Ellam-FLEX-3W
I like having some idea how it looks. The SB bass can't be much different. But really the whole mid and tweeter section is a moveable feast IMO.
Couple of splendid mids here:
4" SB12MNRX25-4 :: SB Acoustics
B 100 - 6 Ohm | Visaton
Interesting waterfall at Visaton. It tells you why this sort of speaker goes to pieces at 7kHz, even if you don't see it on the frequency response. It will also show in the phase.
I must go briefly off topic to help Wilbur-x with his project. The schematic has a basic error which I have corrected. It also only works with single 8 ohm drivers, hopefully in separate 20cm wide enclosures. Then it is rather good of its sort. 5kHz Notch is optional. I don't like them personally. Mucks up the load to the amplifier as often as not.
Directivity and power response is interesting. We can see how the tweeter comes over as overly bright due to the abrupt dispersion change from 2-10kHz. This is always an issue with the small domes crossed from big mids, and makes tweeter level difficult to get right. The 6dB directivity rise to 700Hz is just bafflestep.
I like having some idea how it looks. The SB bass can't be much different. But really the whole mid and tweeter section is a moveable feast IMO.
Couple of splendid mids here:
4" SB12MNRX25-4 :: SB Acoustics
B 100 - 6 Ohm | Visaton
Interesting waterfall at Visaton. It tells you why this sort of speaker goes to pieces at 7kHz, even if you don't see it on the frequency response. It will also show in the phase.
I must go briefly off topic to help Wilbur-x with his project. The schematic has a basic error which I have corrected. It also only works with single 8 ohm drivers, hopefully in separate 20cm wide enclosures. Then it is rather good of its sort. 5kHz Notch is optional. I don't like them personally. Mucks up the load to the amplifier as often as not.
Directivity and power response is interesting. We can see how the tweeter comes over as overly bright due to the abrupt dispersion change from 2-10kHz. This is always an issue with the small domes crossed from big mids, and makes tweeter level difficult to get right. The 6dB directivity rise to 700Hz is just bafflestep.
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The SB23MFCL subwoofers have no shorting rings.
I have seen some distortion measurements, and it was quite high.
Altough i am a big fan of SB Acoutics, i would not recommend this driver.
If you want high quality bass, and also the option of a high crossover frequency (300hz), my advice would be the Satori WO24P
Don't buy anything at Loudspeakerfreaks.com, it has very bad reviews.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/loudspeakerfreaks.com
Groeten
I have seen some distortion measurements, and it was quite high.
Altough i am a big fan of SB Acoutics, i would not recommend this driver.
If you want high quality bass, and also the option of a high crossover frequency (300hz), my advice would be the Satori WO24P
Don't buy anything at Loudspeakerfreaks.com, it has very bad reviews.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/loudspeakerfreaks.com
Groeten
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That's too bad. They saved me like €80,-.
I've emailed them and asked them how and if my order will be delivered properly I were to order something now. Just as an experiment to see if and how bad it is. The people writing those reviews might not have been answered the phone because they only have very short office times from 16:00 to 18:00.
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I've again simulated a lot of woofers and (away from the SB23) surprisingly the Satori MW16P-4 is the best. It even outperforms all of the bigger Satori's in my enclosure volume. In 90 L tuned to 28 Hz it has an F3 of 27,5 Hz. The only bigger 8" that came near that in this enclosure is the Seas CD22RN4X with an F3 of 27,8 Hz but since this is a bigger woofer and is still very good quality but nowhere near as high quality-aimed as the Satori, the Satori obviously has a better impuls respons, tighter bass and definitely the lowest distortion.
They are a bit more expensive though but since these aren't real subwoofers anymore but just woofers I might consider just crossing them over passively.
They are a bit more expensive though but since these aren't real subwoofers anymore but just woofers I might consider just crossing them over passively.
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The MW16P is a great choice, go for it!
I would combine it with the SB26ADC tweeter and Satori WO24P woofers
These are all very low distorting drivers.
Crossover frequencies : 150/250hz between woofer/mid and 1700/2000 between mid and tweeter.
Use the WO24P in a closed box, and apply some boost to get -3db to 25/30hz.
A closed box sounds al lot tighter, and has lower distortion than a bass reflex.
I would combine it with the SB26ADC tweeter and Satori WO24P woofers
These are all very low distorting drivers.
Crossover frequencies : 150/250hz between woofer/mid and 1700/2000 between mid and tweeter.
Use the WO24P in a closed box, and apply some boost to get -3db to 25/30hz.
A closed box sounds al lot tighter, and has lower distortion than a bass reflex.
HaHa. You are right of course. I think the longest thread we had was about 100 pages on some Wilmslow Audio kit. Nobody did anything much in the end!
I think 3wayaddict should just buy a kit from Troels Gravesen. Any kit.
DIY-Loudspeakers
Why reinvent the wheel?
I think 3wayaddict should just buy a kit from Troels Gravesen. Any kit.
DIY-Loudspeakers
Why reinvent the wheel?
Because he is 15 yo and this is how most of us 'built ourselves'.
A kit may yield better results but you don t have the pleasing feeling/result of giving 'life' to an idea.
' dr Frankenstein spirit, get out of this body!'
3wayaddict go forward make some choice whatever it is and let the 'bug' express itself. We (i) believe in you!
This isn't going to be your last project for sure.
And check your pm please.
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I was talking about using the MW16P-4's as woofers, not midrange. As a midrange I will use the W15CY001 because the magnesium Excel drivers supposedly are some of, if not the best drivers out there which is a fact that can no more be busted by now since we've previously already discussed this a lot. The tweeter will be the Illuminator D3004/662000 because it also has very low distortion, a butter smooth response and gets some of the best reviews. Two MW16P-4's will be the woofers because they obviously have very, very low distortion and they obviously are a lot faster and tighter than the SB23's because they have a like four times lower moving mass. I'm working on slightly changing the dimensions of the cabinet because two, in comparison tiny, 16,5 cm woofers look quite out of place on a 28 cm wide cabinet that was initially designed for 23,4 cm subs.
I know sealed enclosures are faster and tighter but the lower distortion depends because in general drivers reach their limits faster but we're not gonna discuss that here.
I don't really want to buy a kit because I want to build and design my own thing completely and Troels Gravesen might obviously be very good at this stuff and his designs are as good as it can get for the drivers used but the kits are still very expensive. I can already see the price reaching over €1.000,- per speakers when I see pictures of the stacks of Superior Z-Caps he uses. If I succeed in properly designing, tweaking, building my design I'm pretty sure I can still get some better value and sound depending on which kit I compare it to.
I know sealed enclosures are faster and tighter but the lower distortion depends because in general drivers reach their limits faster but we're not gonna discuss that here.
I don't really want to buy a kit because I want to build and design my own thing completely and Troels Gravesen might obviously be very good at this stuff and his designs are as good as it can get for the drivers used but the kits are still very expensive. I can already see the price reaching over €1.000,- per speakers when I see pictures of the stacks of Superior Z-Caps he uses. If I succeed in properly designing, tweaking, building my design I'm pretty sure I can still get some better value and sound depending on which kit I compare it to.
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Is it a joke with two MW16P-4 in 90 Liter and reflex loaded? One driver requires much below 20 Liter. Maybe closer to 15 Liters. Cant Remember. Some must be wrong in your simulations.
Have you considered the SB29 woofer ? Requires only 37 Liters in a closed box. With room gain it goes plenty low. I consider it on par and maybe even better than the 26W revelator bass. And the sensivity is around 90 dB. Try simulate how much power you can feed it. Quite some Watts!
Have you considered the SB29 woofer ? Requires only 37 Liters in a closed box. With room gain it goes plenty low. I consider it on par and maybe even better than the 26W revelator bass. And the sensivity is around 90 dB. Try simulate how much power you can feed it. Quite some Watts!
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