Although that Dayton doesn't looks bad, but the distortion still peaks between 1-2kHz. H3 is -43dB, H5 is around -55dB at 2.83V. The SB15NBAC H3 is -65dB, H5 is -75dB in that region and without significant peaking.
I would note that I don’t want to look like an SB fanboy, but sometimes their numbers are impressive.
SB Acoustics SB15NBAC30-4 | HiFiCompass
Well.... if the data supports your point of view - then fair enough
Impressive that they got a cone of about 11 grams and still get good top end. The satori weighs half of that and seem to perform worse.
I have to rewrite my logic about midranges
I have read a bit more.... found this:
SoundImports | "Wave guiding" your favorite tweeter. - SoundImports
But I also found somewhere.... an explanation about domes being bad for waveguides.
Which should be why the old XT ring tweeter should be way better:
Test Peerless XT25TG-30 / 04 at Waveguide WG-300
But I want to go for a 4-5" midrange - so maybe the DXT is the easiest option.... decisions decisions
Cause - how easily can you hear a reduction of 5dB in distortion and is 40dB below sound level enough... is the dome in the DXT good enough to compete with an old Vifa XT.... are measurements all there is... og is implementation the most important.... hmmm
SoundImports | "Wave guiding" your favorite tweeter. - SoundImports
But I also found somewhere.... an explanation about domes being bad for waveguides.
Which should be why the old XT ring tweeter should be way better:
Test Peerless XT25TG-30 / 04 at Waveguide WG-300
But I want to go for a 4-5" midrange - so maybe the DXT is the easiest option.... decisions decisions
Cause - how easily can you hear a reduction of 5dB in distortion and is 40dB below sound level enough... is the dome in the DXT good enough to compete with an old Vifa XT.... are measurements all there is... og is implementation the most important.... hmmm
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Sometimes implementation can not save a concept. Putting XT tweeter in a waveguide can yield very surprising results. I am listening XT type of tweeter in wg148r as i write. I have listened Morel in that same configuration (same cabimet, wg, midbas, crossover point etc.) and it sounded better. That doesn't surprise me given that i realized i don't like as high directivity >8kHz as ring radiators have.
Ohh... that's a good point - thank you for that
My findings too - is that to much of a high directivity. Tends to be more "aggressive" to listen to - even though it's clean and at moderate volume. Also because we sit much closter to the speaker at home - than at a concert - where horns are at their best. So somewhere in between.... tweaking tweaking
Seas DXT in wide baffle?
I have a similar 'problem' choosing tweeter for a build. It's a build inspired by Troels PMS, so a wide rounded baffle. (garage pic attached)
They are under construction, and I'm running them with a stepped baffle to get time alignment to a Peerless DX25 dome tweeter, but the extra baffle for M13 mid and M21 woofer screws up the FR response of the mid and tweeter, and most likely the whole idea of the wide baffle (for mid), so I'm thinking I have to go back to mounting the mid flush with the baffle, and I would like to WG the tweeter instead to get more treble directivity and keep the time alignment with the mid. Aiming to XO LR2 at 2-3kHz.
I have two main candidates:
Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT
+fits the hole in the baffle
+seems popular and measures pretty good
-a little bit expensive(almost double)
-seems to need some extra work in XO to straighten the FR
Seas Noferro-900 + Visaton Waveguide WG-148R
+Tweeter is not expensive and I have the waveguides as leftovers from before
+Measures really good in the baffle used for testing
-could not find more info about this combination
-seems nobody built any well documented project with this combo
-Needs new hole in the baffle, so there is no going back if I mount them
-Maybe a negative point for looks compared to the DXT
Ref to both tested by Heissmann Acoustics: Heissmann-Acoustics | Tweeter with Waveguide | reviews
However, it's a bit unclear how these will behave on the wide curved baffle. It's been mentioned that the baffle has a significant influence, and I found measurements of them on infinite baffle and narrow baffle. Very hard to estimate if the tweeter will 'see' a 22cm (flat center part) wide baffle, or the full with, or something in between..
Heissmann seems to have used the DXT in many projects, but not the 900+WG, even if the later seems to measure better IMHO.
Any input, experiences, or suggestions of other suitable tweeters would be appreciated!
I have a similar 'problem' choosing tweeter for a build. It's a build inspired by Troels PMS, so a wide rounded baffle. (garage pic attached)
They are under construction, and I'm running them with a stepped baffle to get time alignment to a Peerless DX25 dome tweeter, but the extra baffle for M13 mid and M21 woofer screws up the FR response of the mid and tweeter, and most likely the whole idea of the wide baffle (for mid), so I'm thinking I have to go back to mounting the mid flush with the baffle, and I would like to WG the tweeter instead to get more treble directivity and keep the time alignment with the mid. Aiming to XO LR2 at 2-3kHz.
I have two main candidates:
Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT
+fits the hole in the baffle
+seems popular and measures pretty good
-a little bit expensive(almost double)
-seems to need some extra work in XO to straighten the FR
Seas Noferro-900 + Visaton Waveguide WG-148R
+Tweeter is not expensive and I have the waveguides as leftovers from before
+Measures really good in the baffle used for testing
-could not find more info about this combination
-seems nobody built any well documented project with this combo
-Needs new hole in the baffle, so there is no going back if I mount them
-Maybe a negative point for looks compared to the DXT
Ref to both tested by Heissmann Acoustics: Heissmann-Acoustics | Tweeter with Waveguide | reviews
However, it's a bit unclear how these will behave on the wide curved baffle. It's been mentioned that the baffle has a significant influence, and I found measurements of them on infinite baffle and narrow baffle. Very hard to estimate if the tweeter will 'see' a 22cm (flat center part) wide baffle, or the full with, or something in between..
Heissmann seems to have used the DXT in many projects, but not the 900+WG, even if the later seems to measure better IMHO.
Any input, experiences, or suggestions of other suitable tweeters would be appreciated!
Attachments
Just to answer my own question, after some reading and guesswork I took a chance and ordered the 27TDFC, and I will try it with the WG148-R. I was looking at the no FF version 27TDC, but I guess I can clean out the FF in case I'm not happy with this one.
I like the bigger chamber and lower resonance frequency of these (compared to the 900 mentioned before), even if I'm not planning to XO very low. Could give me the possibility to try 1:st order XO too.
I like the bigger chamber and lower resonance frequency of these (compared to the 900 mentioned before), even if I'm not planning to XO very low. Could give me the possibility to try 1:st order XO too.
I don't believe that 27TDFC in an improvement over DX25, quite the opposite. But that's just my subjective opinion. Heissman measured DX25 in Monacor WG300 and it behaves very good. If this is to big waveguide for you, i'd hire some company to make me a smaller diameter wg following the Monacor WG300 curve. Or WG300 can be just trimmed to a certain diameter and you can use Hessman's adapter plate.
I did the same (27TDFC and WG148-R). To mount the 27TDFC all you need to do is enlarge the 27TDFC mounting holes by 2-3 mm and the holes will align with the WG148-R holes. I also put some thin gasket material around the WG148-R cutout to seal any possible leaks. I initially tried LR4 @ 2KHz, but after a lot of testing and listening ended up at LR4 @ 2.5 KHz.
I have used the DX25 in the WG300 before(based on Heissmann measurements) in another speaker, but there is something about the treble of the DX25 I don't like. I still don't like it much without the waveguide either, so it was time to try another tweeter. I also suspect the WG300 is too deep to align well with the M13 mid.
After I replaced the DX25 with a XT25 in the WG300, everything was fine.
Good to hear! However I think I rather make new holes in the WG to fit the tweeter instead, in case I want to 'recycle' the tweeter in the future.
Did you make measurements of it in the WG?
That's why i wrote, subjective. I listened Seas 27TFFC (i removed ff) in wg148r and did exactly what Ernperkins suggested. Didn't like the sound althoug i couldn't find anything fundamentally wrong with the combination.
That's good to read because I planned to use that tweeter on that waveguide. Although many thinks it's an excellent tweeter, the conclusion almost always that "good for the price".
Maybe I lowering my expectations. I used that tweeter before without WG and found their sound irritating in long term, although I didn't removed the ff.
If it would be not so good in the WG either, then it's possible to exchange with a SS D2905/9700.
Sorry for offtopic, but maybe some find it useful.
Strange that PMC uses the 27TFFC in their most expensive passive speakers too. What they knows about that driver?
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Well, the 27TFFC + wg148r was a fail. I don't have space for a bigger diameter in the box. Tweeters have now been returned to the kind seller.
There is only room for the diameter of the magnet assembly in the box (collision with mid box). There is room for a bigger face plate though.
This means the DXT would be a good fit mechanically, but I'm hesitating.. Looking at the DXT and some designs I have found, they don't seem so deep that they would time align with the mid. XO's often seem to be higher order on the DXT to align phase with mid/woofer.
I have been looking around and thinking about going with a XT+some diy WG.. I know I like the treble from the XT, and I have one spare, so I would only have to buy one more to complete the project.
Rod Elliot had some examples of 90deg WG's that seem possible to DIY. I did some quick test with a piece of MDF and a router, and measured a std dome tweeter in it. It seemed worth investigating further. However the XT is a bit tricky for DIY WG, with the chamber protruding behind the face plate.
More suggestions?
There is only room for the diameter of the magnet assembly in the box (collision with mid box). There is room for a bigger face plate though.
This means the DXT would be a good fit mechanically, but I'm hesitating.. Looking at the DXT and some designs I have found, they don't seem so deep that they would time align with the mid. XO's often seem to be higher order on the DXT to align phase with mid/woofer.
I have been looking around and thinking about going with a XT+some diy WG.. I know I like the treble from the XT, and I have one spare, so I would only have to buy one more to complete the project.
Rod Elliot had some examples of 90deg WG's that seem possible to DIY. I did some quick test with a piece of MDF and a router, and measured a std dome tweeter in it. It seemed worth investigating further. However the XT is a bit tricky for DIY WG, with the chamber protruding behind the face plate.
More suggestions?
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@Rallyfinnen
Look at the WG300 instead... it seems to have way more options than the WG148R - which I also bought and tried with 3 different tweeters, but did not find any good use for.
I ordered the DXT and is waiting for it to come - hopefully tomorrow, so that I can play with it this weekend.
Time allign....? I just delay the thing in my DSP - done
Look at the WG300 instead... it seems to have way more options than the WG148R - which I also bought and tried with 3 different tweeters, but did not find any good use for.
I ordered the DXT and is waiting for it to come - hopefully tomorrow, so that I can play with it this weekend.
Time allign....? I just delay the thing in my DSP - done
I do have a pair of WG300's in their boxes, but not for this..
These tweeters will be paired with M13 mids, so the WG300 is a bit over sized I think. Too large diameter for looks, and most likely too deep for time alignment. I don't want to go active with these. I thought the WG148 would fit the bill, but failed due to space issues. What will you use the DXT with? Would be interesting to know the delay you get to align it, assuming you use symmetrical XO. (Just put a symmetrical filter on mid & DXT, run them out of phase, and adjust the delay until you get the deepest null with mic between tweet & mid centers)
These tweeters will be paired with M13 mids, so the WG300 is a bit over sized I think. Too large diameter for looks, and most likely too deep for time alignment. I don't want to go active with these. I thought the WG148 would fit the bill, but failed due to space issues. What will you use the DXT with? Would be interesting to know the delay you get to align it, assuming you use symmetrical XO. (Just put a symmetrical filter on mid & DXT, run them out of phase, and adjust the delay until you get the deepest null with mic between tweet & mid centers)
I found this, and it suggests pretty good TA with a small woofer with phase plug (like my M13).. www.audioexcite.com >> Prestigious Two – Monitor DXT
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