I have been itching for a new project and I've been considering a lot of ideas. I keep coming across rave reviews of the SB acoustics SB15 and SB17 drivers with their various cone materials. I understand that the SB23 size motors are not quite as good. I am planning a 3-way (+sub).
I use a miniDSP 4x10 active system and also run 4 mono CSS SDX10 subwoofers which I am keeping. I like to use sealed woofers on the mains with a 2nd order electrical high pass that coincides with the natural rolloff of the woofers if possible so a 60hz to 80hz sealed box f3 is actually ideal but the subs play quite cleanly up to even 150hz if needed.
I think for this project I would really want to try the MFC cones. My thoughts were to use a pair of SB17MFC as woofers with a single SB15MFC as a midrange. What I am not so sure of is where to go for a tweeter. I would hope that the midrange would play nice up to 2.5khz. I could use a steeper crossover if necessary of course.
Since these drivers appear to punch well above their price point, I don't really feel the need to be stingy with the tweeter. But looking at the SB acoustics tweeters, I don't see anything that stands out as great at a glance until I get to the Satori line. I might also consider some kind of ribbon because I would love to give one of the better ribbons a try some day... and well...you only live once.
Here are a couple tweeters I would like to try mostly just based off of other peoples' reviews. Would like to hear your thoughts on all of this or other suggestions that you really think would be a good fit.
BlieSMa T25S-6 or T25B-6
Scan Speak D2608/913000 (Formerly Peerless HDS 810921)
Viawave SRT-7
I use a miniDSP 4x10 active system and also run 4 mono CSS SDX10 subwoofers which I am keeping. I like to use sealed woofers on the mains with a 2nd order electrical high pass that coincides with the natural rolloff of the woofers if possible so a 60hz to 80hz sealed box f3 is actually ideal but the subs play quite cleanly up to even 150hz if needed.
I think for this project I would really want to try the MFC cones. My thoughts were to use a pair of SB17MFC as woofers with a single SB15MFC as a midrange. What I am not so sure of is where to go for a tweeter. I would hope that the midrange would play nice up to 2.5khz. I could use a steeper crossover if necessary of course.
Since these drivers appear to punch well above their price point, I don't really feel the need to be stingy with the tweeter. But looking at the SB acoustics tweeters, I don't see anything that stands out as great at a glance until I get to the Satori line. I might also consider some kind of ribbon because I would love to give one of the better ribbons a try some day... and well...you only live once.
Here are a couple tweeters I would like to try mostly just based off of other peoples' reviews. Would like to hear your thoughts on all of this or other suggestions that you really think would be a good fit.
BlieSMa T25S-6 or T25B-6
Scan Speak D2608/913000 (Formerly Peerless HDS 810921)
Viawave SRT-7
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Simulate peak excursion at rated power to max out each driver pair (with appropriate enclosure and filter in place aka WinISD).
I can see the potential for MTM to keep up with the pair of CSS per side with the SB17MFC and tweeter... but unsure why you think you need an SB15 for midrange as well. the tweeter should be perfectly capable of meeting the SB17MFC pair (depending on CtC spacing goals).
I can see the potential for MTM to keep up with the pair of CSS per side with the SB17MFC and tweeter... but unsure why you think you need an SB15 for midrange as well. the tweeter should be perfectly capable of meeting the SB17MFC pair (depending on CtC spacing goals).
Thanks for the tweeter suggestion. I had missed that one. It looks to measure quite well.
As for skipping the midrange and going for a 6+1, I have yet to find a 6+1 that I truly enjoy. You see them left right and center and yet I am just left wanting. I had Zaphaudio's ZRT Revelator/Illuminator 2.5 way previously. I never found it more than just okay. I now run those drivers in a 3 way with a 4" mid and it is no doubt improved to my ears.
I have the channels available in amplifiers and DSP, so I don't really see much down side to adding a mid. I might rather use an 8" + 5" + 1" or 6"+4"+1" but from what people say, the SB15 and SB17 models are a bit better than the other sizes. I am still considering other sizes though as well as a few other drivers from other brands. It's just hard to ignore the apparent value from these.
As for skipping the midrange and going for a 6+1, I have yet to find a 6+1 that I truly enjoy. You see them left right and center and yet I am just left wanting. I had Zaphaudio's ZRT Revelator/Illuminator 2.5 way previously. I never found it more than just okay. I now run those drivers in a 3 way with a 4" mid and it is no doubt improved to my ears.
I have the channels available in amplifiers and DSP, so I don't really see much down side to adding a mid. I might rather use an 8" + 5" + 1" or 6"+4"+1" but from what people say, the SB15 and SB17 models are a bit better than the other sizes. I am still considering other sizes though as well as a few other drivers from other brands. It's just hard to ignore the apparent value from these.
The cone material will have a large sonic effect. In the SB_line of drivers, there are a few posts which compare both the sonics and the measurements of cones constructed with: polyplastic like the MFC you are considering, paper, aluminum, and ceramic coated aluminum. In one word adjectives:
MFC plastic = smooth
Multi-fiber paper = natural
Ribbed aluminum = detailed
Ceramic coated Aluminum = detailed+
A pair of 8" SB23NBACS45-8 woofers can produce -F3 ~32Hz and save building plus itegrating a subwoofer. SB's ribbed aluminum cones have raised the first main cone breakup to ~4kHz. Can you fit a 3.5cuft cabinet to build stereo 3-way TM-WW, 1-6-(8-8)
MFC plastic = smooth
Multi-fiber paper = natural
Ribbed aluminum = detailed
Ceramic coated Aluminum = detailed+
A pair of 8" SB23NBACS45-8 woofers can produce -F3 ~32Hz and save building plus itegrating a subwoofer. SB's ribbed aluminum cones have raised the first main cone breakup to ~4kHz. Can you fit a 3.5cuft cabinet to build stereo 3-way TM-WW, 1-6-(8-8)
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I agree with all of this however the subwoofers are already built and singing! I do have the dilemma of whether I want MFC CAC OR NBAC line. I am not interested in paper. I already have a great set of paper drivers so I am wanting something different. I can fit a large dual 8" cabinet which would be fun although not entirely necessary. The biggest thing keeping me from that is that the 8" of these series don't quite measure as good (and also the 8" MFC is more of a subwoofer.)
I agree, sealed bass drivers will have superior transients compared to ported designs.
1.6cuft sealed 8" SB23NBACS45-8 -F3 ~45Hz.
3.2cuft sealed cabinet for two.
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Geddes: “The mains should be designed for the best possible direct field with as flat a power response as possible. Equalization of the mains could only make them worse.”
So, if your new speakers have limited bass(> 60-80Hz) two CSS SDX10 subwoofers would be part of your stereo mains... with as flat a power response as possible.
The front "main" speakers should not be used to control room resonances. Properly placed and equalized subwoofers around the room should be used to reduce the room resonances.
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Low-Frequency Optimization Using Multiple Subwoofers*
TODD WELTI AND ALLAN DEVANTIER
... position the subwoofers around the room to reduce room interaction and allow equalization of room generated bass effects.
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Which 4" mids?
The drivers you already own (Scan Revelator 18W's, AirCirc tweeters) have higher potential then the ones you're considering. No need to spend more money on drivers that won't fix the problem. Your path to audio bliss is all in the tune (this includes room set up). Put that miniDSP 4x10 to work.
Not knowing what the mid is, I'll leave it out of the equation for now. I'd configure the 18W's and AirCirc in an MTM configuration and run all of it active with your subs. If you get the tune right, there's no reason this can't sound phenomenal.
You can't make a paper driver sound like a poly driver. I have been playing and playing with the DSP for years and in 2 different rooms with the 2.5 way+subs and for months with the (12mu Illuminator) mid added. It's pretty good and I could live with the system. I am not getting rid of it, I just want to play with new speakers. Isn't that what most of us do around here?
I do worry that the standard line of SB Acoustics might be a tad inferior, but when you look at the numbers, objectively they seem vanishingly close in quality so long as you aren't pushing high power to them. I have been considering some far more expensive drivers as well though.
I should also mention that I have tinnitus so the finest details could be lost on me. The bigger issue is that certain things just sound grating to my ringing ears. I have tried 2 different boxes and both sealed and ported with these speakers and there is something that just bothers me a little about them. I know this doesn't have to be as I have heard speakers that are less aggravating.
For years everyone has been telling me that I should love my current speakers. It's time to give up on that myth. It's not that they are BAD, but we all have different tastes.
I do worry that the standard line of SB Acoustics might be a tad inferior, but when you look at the numbers, objectively they seem vanishingly close in quality so long as you aren't pushing high power to them. I have been considering some far more expensive drivers as well though.
I should also mention that I have tinnitus so the finest details could be lost on me. The bigger issue is that certain things just sound grating to my ringing ears. I have tried 2 different boxes and both sealed and ported with these speakers and there is something that just bothers me a little about them. I know this doesn't have to be as I have heard speakers that are less aggravating.
For years everyone has been telling me that I should love my current speakers. It's time to give up on that myth. It's not that they are BAD, but we all have different tastes.
If 18W revelator + 12MU + 6600 done properly with good crossover, anything based on SB17 cannot come even close. Judged by measurements only - yes, but sonically NO. You would need to pick from Satori line.
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I feel you are arguing that the achievable level sound quality cannot be fully envisioned by the measurements, yet the Scan-Speaks must sound good. Even if you don't consider subjective tastes, this doesn't make a lot of sense. I do appreciate your opinion though that there is some subjective value in the more expensive lines to many of us and I will give that heavy consideration again. I am not married to these choices for sure.
Everyone keeps insisting that I must be doing something wrong to not like the Scans very much. I am not interested in pursuing that route any longer. I have done multiple boxes, rooms, amplifiers, sources, room treatment and countless crossover iterations, equalizing 'till the cows come home. This horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp. They sound OK enough. I am looking for something different.
I could just try changing 1 driver in the current speakers. For example just replacing the 18W revelators. I am in the process of finishing up modular boxes so the 12mu and 6600 are in their own separate cabinet.
Everyone keeps insisting that I must be doing something wrong to not like the Scans very much. I am not interested in pursuing that route any longer. I have done multiple boxes, rooms, amplifiers, sources, room treatment and countless crossover iterations, equalizing 'till the cows come home. This horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp. They sound OK enough. I am looking for something different.
I could just try changing 1 driver in the current speakers. For example just replacing the 18W revelators. I am in the process of finishing up modular boxes so the 12mu and 6600 are in their own separate cabinet.
My opinion is based on experiences with all mentioned drivers. For me the difference between mentioned scan speak drivers and SB17 line is not "about the tastes".
The more projects I finished and listened to, the more difficult it is for me to create new better sounding project. Too many times I experienced moments when I connected the first crossover to new speaker and it did not sound good at all. I usually have to make several changes to come to good sounding version. But all of these versions can be called good measuring versions. So definitely measurements do not tell everything.
One example, several times I had to change amount of damping inside bassreflex enclosures and could very well judge the influence on overall sound and balance, changing from boomy and hollow to firm and punchy. Required changes of the amount of damping material were surprisingly low. 18W in Ekta Grande was one of the cases. So crossover is just one part of the equation, same as drivers, acoustic properties if cabinet and front baffle, damping,.....yes it is not easy to make good sounding speaker with such a many variables.
Anyway, we can only speculate. You did not show your crossover and measurements. I just wanted to express that 18W+12MU+6600 is good combo and has potential. If it is not up to your tastes I would recommend to try Satoris, not standard line.
The more projects I finished and listened to, the more difficult it is for me to create new better sounding project. Too many times I experienced moments when I connected the first crossover to new speaker and it did not sound good at all. I usually have to make several changes to come to good sounding version. But all of these versions can be called good measuring versions. So definitely measurements do not tell everything.
One example, several times I had to change amount of damping inside bassreflex enclosures and could very well judge the influence on overall sound and balance, changing from boomy and hollow to firm and punchy. Required changes of the amount of damping material were surprisingly low. 18W in Ekta Grande was one of the cases. So crossover is just one part of the equation, same as drivers, acoustic properties if cabinet and front baffle, damping,.....yes it is not easy to make good sounding speaker with such a many variables.
Anyway, we can only speculate. You did not show your crossover and measurements. I just wanted to express that 18W+12MU+6600 is good combo and has potential. If it is not up to your tastes I would recommend to try Satoris, not standard line.
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Thanks for the input. There could be something with how my boxes behave although the 2 were quite different other than in overall volume. I have been running them sealed now for quite some time as I prefer that ever so slightly.
I do have a cheap speaker that I put together with an old 6.5" SEAS woven fiber midwoofer and a 27TDFC. While obviously not able to achieve the same resolution that the Revelator and Illuminators can, there is some charm to it. This is what leads me to avoid paper drivers to minimize the similarities with what I have in my main system.
I feel that there is no point for me to share my measurements. They have varied a lot over the years and by now I have found that I prefer a very heavily tilted response, so it is certainly not going to look good to others. I have tried the range of crossover points and slopes, flattening broad humps, small humps, measuring from 1 meter distance and from the listening position (the latter of which I find has little to offer). Some of the issues are just my personal taste, others are likely my tinnitus making things sound harsh.
I do have a cheap speaker that I put together with an old 6.5" SEAS woven fiber midwoofer and a 27TDFC. While obviously not able to achieve the same resolution that the Revelator and Illuminators can, there is some charm to it. This is what leads me to avoid paper drivers to minimize the similarities with what I have in my main system.
I feel that there is no point for me to share my measurements. They have varied a lot over the years and by now I have found that I prefer a very heavily tilted response, so it is certainly not going to look good to others. I have tried the range of crossover points and slopes, flattening broad humps, small humps, measuring from 1 meter distance and from the listening position (the latter of which I find has little to offer). Some of the issues are just my personal taste, others are likely my tinnitus making things sound harsh.
What are the CSS SDX10 subwoofer cabinet dimensions?
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The "Telegrapher Studio 20" speaker uses ScanSpeak Illuminator 1+4+7 drivers in a cabinet design you could put on a stand above your front subwoofers for your mains.
Telegrapher Loudspeakers
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The "Taipuu" speaker uses uses ScanSpeak Illuminator 1+4+7 drivers in a ear-level cabinet shape which you could use next to your CSS SDX10 subwoofers for your main front speakers. You can locate your other two subwoofers around the room, and add equalization to reduce deep bass resonances.
Taipuu Speakers - Taipuu Speakers
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The "Telegrapher Studio 20" speaker uses ScanSpeak Illuminator 1+4+7 drivers in a cabinet design you could put on a stand above your front subwoofers for your mains.
Telegrapher Loudspeakers
=========
The "Taipuu" speaker uses uses ScanSpeak Illuminator 1+4+7 drivers in a ear-level cabinet shape which you could use next to your CSS SDX10 subwoofers for your main front speakers. You can locate your other two subwoofers around the room, and add equalization to reduce deep bass resonances.
Taipuu Speakers - Taipuu Speakers
I just finished a 3-way built around a set of SB Acoustics drivers. I am super pleased with the result. It is a sealed design and I extend the bass down to 30 Hz with a DSP. I find no need for any sub-woofers, especially since the bass quality from the SB23NRXS45-8 is great extended this way.
The build is fully documented on my blog:
The build is fully documented on my blog:
As Has been mentioned, Satori line is a grest alternative to the high end Scans, but if budget allows and paper is out of equation then perhaps You could consider the Textreme version of Satoris, based on numbers few drivers come close, there is a review withdetailed measurements on the HiFiCompass site
2.3 cubic ft. sealed, about 27" tall, 12" wide 20" deep (4 separate cabinets.)
I will go check it out.
I would like to see what a 9.5" Textreme would look like price and performance wise. I find it hard to consider the 7.5 at the price it is at, especially when people say the bass performance is lacking. It is one to consider but once you get to that price level, there are a few other choices that interest me also.
I have ZRT 2.0's. Ended up tuning them using some of the guidelines from Zaph's website and now they sound really good. Maybe not a direct comparison to yours but they are "polite" and not so engaging (hard to describe).
Been playing with a 12"+5"+Dome MTM and the sound is more to my liking. Still a beginner so may be due to the drivers (lighter paper?) or just how I have the crossover set up (difficult with MTM).
So to your question; not sure a new set of similar drivers in a similar configuration is the answer. Hard cones may make a difference; can't say, but why not make the jump to pro drivers. Maybe you are looking for the big midrange sound so an 8 to 10 inch midbass and horn (with your subs for now) may be an answer.
Been playing with a 12"+5"+Dome MTM and the sound is more to my liking. Still a beginner so may be due to the drivers (lighter paper?) or just how I have the crossover set up (difficult with MTM).
So to your question; not sure a new set of similar drivers in a similar configuration is the answer. Hard cones may make a difference; can't say, but why not make the jump to pro drivers. Maybe you are looking for the big midrange sound so an 8 to 10 inch midbass and horn (with your subs for now) may be an answer.
I can modestly recommend in the list of tweeters Raal 70-10 and in list of mids Scan Speak 12MU. Mine is crossed active at 4100hz and sounds amazing with 12MU...
My thoughts are to go for the ceramic or NBAC. Simply because it is so different from your present system. The aluminium drivers are also very unusual with a frequency response at 10-20kHz higher than at 1kHz... even though it is called mid woofer.
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