I've used the SB CAC's in two 3 way designs and I'm satisfied with them both. I haven't tried the poly coned ones. The first cac I used is the 5" in a tower paired with two Anarchy 7" woofers and a Mundorf AMT. I listened to them every night for the last two years and I'm still amazed at the sound quality. The second build are 3 way stand mounts with the 8" cac, the 4" mnrx mid and a Fountek ribbon. I put these in my office and listen to them all day, 5 days a week, they aren't as good as the towers, but they sound quite nice. So I would suggest you try the following.
Tweeter - Mundorf AMT19CM1.1-C Air Motion Tweeter (AMT)
Mid - SB Acoustics SB15CAC30-4 5" ceramic woofer- 4 ohms
Woofers - SB Acoustics SB23CACS45-8 8" ceramic woofer- 8 ohms in parallel
When I built the towers the Mundorfs were 285.00 each, it was a tough decision but worth it, at the current price of 485.00 each will make these some expensive speakers. At this price you could consider Ralls. It is so easy to spend someone else's money.
Tweeter - Mundorf AMT19CM1.1-C Air Motion Tweeter (AMT)
Mid - SB Acoustics SB15CAC30-4 5" ceramic woofer- 4 ohms
Woofers - SB Acoustics SB23CACS45-8 8" ceramic woofer- 8 ohms in parallel
When I built the towers the Mundorfs were 285.00 each, it was a tough decision but worth it, at the current price of 485.00 each will make these some expensive speakers. At this price you could consider Ralls. It is so easy to spend someone else's money.
Maybe worth searching out Javan Shadzi’s Ceramicos on the Facebook diy loudspeaker pad. These use twin 23cac in a sealed 2cu.ft box plus the 15cac mid and 26cdc tweeter.
It isn't a completed project, but I am building a large volume 3 way based on the SB26 SB15 2xSB23 ceramics. 3 Way w/SB Acoustics Ceramics (woofer choice?)
Don't know if you have considered a waveguide, but that was a must for me in my project.
Don't know if you have considered a waveguide, but that was a must for me in my project.
Thanks for all the input!
I did give a lot of consideration to many or Troels' designs. His website is always my #1 place to look although I have not built any of his designs yet. I am a bit hesitant to try the paper Satoris afraid they will not be different enough from what I have.
I did come across an interesting bit of info yesterday. At HiFiCompass I read an article where he was contemplating a build, and he had this to say about the 18/8531 which is what I have: "ScanSpeak 18W / 4531G00 - good midwoofer with very characteristic soft papery sound, rejected due to doubts about sound handwriting compatibility" (I'm sure by handwriting, he means sound signature) . Maybe that is what I am not enjoying. Just a thought.
I did go over that one a bit. I do wonder why Meniscus is not offering it as a kit. That made me suspect that it may have been not up to par or something.
With a couple people suggesting the cheaper SB line will not be as good as I think, I have been taken back almost to square 1 and am back in "analysis paralysis" mode. An option I could also consider is to just choose a new lower mid to replace the 18W/8531 pair. So many options. I can always do more than 1 idea here over time though.
I really want to hear a CAC or NBAC, and for a different sound, the MFC line. I do want to hear what an Audiotechnology mid and woofer would sound like... maybe an aluminum cone 18WU Illuminator? and a couple SEAS drivers although their recent models are priced way too high 🙁. The new Seas L19NRX1 looks interesting.
I did give a lot of consideration to many or Troels' designs. His website is always my #1 place to look although I have not built any of his designs yet. I am a bit hesitant to try the paper Satoris afraid they will not be different enough from what I have.
I did come across an interesting bit of info yesterday. At HiFiCompass I read an article where he was contemplating a build, and he had this to say about the 18/8531 which is what I have: "ScanSpeak 18W / 4531G00 - good midwoofer with very characteristic soft papery sound, rejected due to doubts about sound handwriting compatibility" (I'm sure by handwriting, he means sound signature) . Maybe that is what I am not enjoying. Just a thought.
I did go over that one a bit. I do wonder why Meniscus is not offering it as a kit. That made me suspect that it may have been not up to par or something.
With a couple people suggesting the cheaper SB line will not be as good as I think, I have been taken back almost to square 1 and am back in "analysis paralysis" mode. An option I could also consider is to just choose a new lower mid to replace the 18W/8531 pair. So many options. I can always do more than 1 idea here over time though.
I really want to hear a CAC or NBAC, and for a different sound, the MFC line. I do want to hear what an Audiotechnology mid and woofer would sound like... maybe an aluminum cone 18WU Illuminator? and a couple SEAS drivers although their recent models are priced way too high 🙁. The new Seas L19NRX1 looks interesting.
For your own sanity, leave no stone unturned. Get the poly SB17's as it's a small investment. Solen shows to have two in stock. Use them with the Scanspeak AirCirc tweeters and CSS SDX10 subs to build an active 3 way and decide for yourself if poly cones are what you're looking for.
I'm in the slow process of building speakers right now myself, they will have SB 26ADC, SB 15NBAC, Scan-Speak 26W/8534G00 in closed enclosures.
As I'm building the amp/dsp at the same time it's been dragging along, but the cabinets are done and waiting for paint, so I'm hoping to start measuring and test listen them soon.
I'm not sure if those Scan-Speak woofers will play loud enough for you, but I figured that they'll be enough in my small room and in worst case I'll add subwoofer later. But I read a lot of good reviews about them, that's why I picked them (the price helped as well). 🙂
As I'm building the amp/dsp at the same time it's been dragging along, but the cabinets are done and waiting for paint, so I'm hoping to start measuring and test listen them soon.
I'm not sure if those Scan-Speak woofers will play loud enough for you, but I figured that they'll be enough in my small room and in worst case I'll add subwoofer later. But I read a lot of good reviews about them, that's why I picked them (the price helped as well). 🙂
There was a time (90's-early 2000's) when I was convinced that poly cones were superior to everything else (mainly due to the nonsense I read in audio mags back then). I've had many many drivers since then in many different systems in many different environments (houses, apartments, dance clubs, cars....you name it), and I've come to a few sobering realizations, two of which I believe apply to your situation.
1. Motor design is infinitely more important than diaphragm material, so much so that diaphragm material is almost irrelevant in comparison.
2. The tune and the room are much more important than every other variable combined.
With that being said, I still have to acknowledge that yes, part of a driver's sonic signature is due to it's breakup behavior which is in large part due to the diaphragm material used. But I'd have to argue that the material used won't make or break a system. It's a very small part of the recipe. And if paper cones had no advantages over poly, aluminum, kevlar, carbon fiber, etc, high end driver manufacturers like Scanspeak and SB Acoustics wouldn't use it in nearly all of their drivers. But that's a whole other can of worms I'd rather not get into.
Although I strongly believe the Scan 6600 with the 12MU mid, and 18W Revelator woofers can satisfy anyone's path to audio euphoria, as I mentioned before, you need to go ahead and try out the poly cone drivers for yourself to decide how relevant cone material is.
Here is an article you might find useful.
SBAcoustics-61-NAC
Aluminium cones are more detailed compared to the rest. So I believe the ceramic one too... The ceramics are just aluminium coated with a layer of ceramic.
If I remember correctly, the Sb Acoustics line are also designed by the same guys who designed the Scan Speak Revelator series, hence the lines on the metal cones...
Oon
SBAcoustics-61-NAC
Aluminium cones are more detailed compared to the rest. So I believe the ceramic one too... The ceramics are just aluminium coated with a layer of ceramic.
If I remember correctly, the Sb Acoustics line are also designed by the same guys who designed the Scan Speak Revelator series, hence the lines on the metal cones...
Oon
It might not be that I don't like paper drivers. It might just be that I don't like the 18W8531. I would just prefer to try drivers that are more different than similar.
edit: and I'm not saying it's particularly bad. Just only okay.
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You are not alone in not liking the 18W8531 and know a few but personally I thought it was a good mid woofer (mine was coated). Can't say I've ever used it for bass duties only.
My only observation was it could do good bass or mids but not both at the same time hence I only used mine from 90Hz up which was much better than trying to push it below 40Hz.
My only observation was it could do good bass or mids but not both at the same time hence I only used mine from 90Hz up which was much better than trying to push it below 40Hz.
Maybe I just can't hear as well as others, which wouldn't be surprising because i am 80 years old, or maybe I'm just not so darn picky, or maybe it's due to the music I prefer (instrumental orchestra and ensemble works), but I've used the SS 18W/8531 in two builds, a 2-driver, 2-way and a 3-driver, 3-way and have no complaints about either. Both were TLs for the 18W's and both had f3s in the low 30s. Right now the 2-ways are the speakers in my audio-only setup and the 3-ways tend duty in my TV room, although either can be and have been used in either setup.
Paul
Paul
My suspicion is an issue with the huge lift in response in the 800-2000hz range that nearly all Revelator mids and woofers have, even the aluminum coned 22W's, although to a lesser extent. Illuminators don't have this characteristic. The human ear is extremely sensitive in this range so you absolutely have to iron out the response there or the midrange will sound objectionable. I almost gave up on my 15M/4531K00 mids until I figured this out.
So my question is, what frequency range have you used the 18W's in?
I will know next time there is an issue not to mention this driver ever again. This has been 5 years of people telling me I have to like it... Right now I am using it from 70hz to about 700hz or so. I have tried using eq on it since even before I had the minidsp.
I'm very interested to hear your opinions of the driver you replace it with. Please keep us posted.
I wonder how the aluminum 18WU/8747 would do. Specs would suggest that 1 of these is nearly as capable as dual 18w8531 making it a not so expensive option if I only need a single pair.
No matter what I will remain curious about those superb looking harmonic distortion plots of the SB17 and SB15 LOL. I may have to replace my woofers AND build an SBAcoustics 3 way.
No matter what I will remain curious about those superb looking harmonic distortion plots of the SB17 and SB15 LOL. I may have to replace my woofers AND build an SBAcoustics 3 way.
Hmmmm...? According to Scan's spec sheets from their website, compared to the 18WU/8747, a single 18W/8531 has a 1.5 dB higher sensitivity (2.83v/1m), a 2-mm larger Xmax and a tad more Sd.
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/18wu-8747t00.pdf
ttps://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/18w-8531g00.pdf
Paul
https://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/18wu-8747t00.pdf
ttps://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/18w-8531g00.pdf
Paul