rnrss orates on Power Amplifiers

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#45
For me, there's nothing more rewarding (soundwise) than hearing a guy playing drums in front of me.
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Hi Carlos

Does it have to be drums ?! :bawling:

AKA: "When I'm grown up, I'm gonna be a drummer !" - "But Billy, you can't be both !!" 😉 😀

OK, a little off-topic but I couldn't resist ! But maybe no one's interested in the original topic anymore ?!

Regards

Charles
 
#47
Arghhh... Time to take a breather! Just thought I would pop on here to see whats happening...


GRollins [/i][B] Ah well said:

Well, I think he was more pointing out that you seem to be mostly using one particular type of music as an example: Very loud rock over live sound PA systems.
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Yep I know... Just like harley owners LOL They always tell me all they want their bike for is so they can cruise on a sunday afternoon... they could care less about speed... well until i join one of their rides... then the first thing they do is freaking race me LOL Of course I oblige... then they dont talk to me anymore LOLOL Nothing really to different in audio...

Variac said:

I do agree that dynamic range is very important to creating a realistic sound, and even if the overall volume isn't really loud.
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Yes exactly... and that is why I am willing ot go through this exercize with the scope and pics for you guys so you can get a "real" feeling for what is going on when driving a speaker and also to try and quantify things for you so you can get a feeling for how much is enough for you for instance... Unlike what you get from the other side I will give you hard data to work with not just babble about everthing that is insignificant...

Variac said:

I don't see how some scope pics are going to convince people that their approach is wrong. I suspect they will just continue to enjoy their systems whether or not you approve.
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Oh no its not intended for those people... try telling a ford owner to buy chev you know? Never happen... I could care less about these people who love their distortion let them love whatever they like... this is really for the new people who come on to this forum and would like to hear what it takes to get highly dynamic transiently clean music with real impact and rich depth, perfect image etc... everything you do not get in tubes and other low damped systems like ccs...

GRollins said:
I once thought that damping factor was really, really important. Then it was pointed out to me that it's a diminishing returns sort of thing and that a damping factor of 1000 isn't 10 times better than a damping factor of 100. Grey
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Since you are a ccs and tube person and prefer listening to the most distorted systems on the planet today I can certainly understand why you would not see any value in damping... Especially since the amps you guys push after matching have a .1 damping factor at the speaker... LOL!!

Now I noticed a big difference between 400 and 2700 df... Since you want to imply that diminishing returns makes this all worthless, then you would also need to apply that to a 5 dollar transistor radio... Acquiring a 5 dollar transistor radio that brings music into your life from having no music is a huge and major step with great returns... no music to music...

upgrading to any better system is also diminishing returns... So I am sure all you have a that 5buck radio right?

GRollins said:
Later came the realization (rather painfully, I might add) that some of the things you do to get a super-high damping factor--like huge amounts of negative feedback--have unfortunate side effects of their own and should be treated much the way you would treat a chain saw running at full throttle. If you're not careful, it'll be just a happy to take a chunk out of you as the tree you're sawing.Grey [/B]
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Rather painfully? you must have dropped one of them tube amps on your foot huh? Yeh sure rolins you run out and get the most poorly designed transistor amp that you can find... probably one you built yourself, and then gripe about negative feedback distortion... you are seriously living in the past... try comparing to a good amp for a change... Chainsaw? totally misrepresents feedback distortion...

GRollins said:
People besotted with high rates of negative feedback don't listen to much live, unamplified music. Otherwise, they'd realize the differences between what they think is "truth" and the sound of real instruments. And yes, it does matter, even if you listen to acdc at 135db.Grey [/B]
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So you are assuming and trying to impress us that my amp has high rates of negative feedback and therefore cannot sound as good as these trans amps or whatever a single transister amp whatever turns your crank? You think the only thing I listen to is rock? lol More like you dont think to much...

Tell us all how much negative feedback my amp has? Tell us all how much neg fdbk is to much. At what point does the evil negative feedback become audible? Tell us how negative feeback can cause distortion.... We would really like to hear your "expert" analysis on this... Maybe ALL neg fdbk is evil... I am sure it will be the same answer you gave for the damping question and the PA question, DUH you dont know!!!!

If you think that a tube or ccs system sounds like a real unamplified system you have never had anyone play their instrument, record it, and then you play it back through your speakers... Real instruments are ****EXTREMELY**** transparent... more of the same babble from you...

GRollins said:
Treat unamplified music the same way (assuming that it doesn't appeal to you). Use it to get your system set properly. Then you can listen to anything you want, secure in the knowledge that it will be in focus and with all the proper detail.
That used to seem like a wierd, complicated, and bizarre concept to me. These days, it seems pretty obvious. Just took a while for me to get there. Grey [/B]
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Well maybe I am just a little better at than you are... I can get my system set up to play anything using any music...

SY said:


Couldn't agree more on that. Every time I catch myself obsessing about fractions of a dB or hundredths of a percent, I remember my experiences walking down a city street, hearing music coming from a window or around a corner or down the street. No doubt horrible echoes, very non-flat response, scrambled eggs for a waveform, yet my ear-brain said, "Live!" I've just never heard anything like that in someone's living room. What's cuing me? I have no clue...
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Exactly my point thank you! Now if you take a stereo and put play it all back and you walk past that guys house it should sound "EXACTLY" the same way it sounded the first time you walked by "Live!" That is what I am pointing out here and will illustrate when I am done with this little project...

and with that peoples I am back to work for a few more days lol
 
#48
rnrss,

I have no interest in arguing about or decifering your knowledge of amplifiers but I am interested in your apparent need to jump on a soabox and tell the rest of the world that your way is the only way. You have taken the time to denigrate some of the more experienced and educated individuals on this forum. I've not ever found that to be be the right approach.
We all believe that our way is the right way, why are the other opinions not as valid as yours?

Cal
 
#51
One moderator already splitted the thread...and this was made to show

to more guys, the next one to receive the "Thor" justice Hammer.

It is just a matter of time...or the guy will put his foot over the brake pedal, beeing more kind, or will be send to Andromeda...one way ticket.

I will not visit this thread again...it is enought for me.

This comment is supporting your feelings Weldon.... of course i agree with you.... more interesting the way you name sounds to me Cal...... "Call well donne...The one has the capacity to adjust all things"...strange ocurrences realted to our own pre-destination in life.... may be a justice hammer....welcome Cal!

regards,

Carlos
 
#52
Re: One moderator already splitted the thread...and this was made to show

Cal Weldon said:
rnrss,

I have no interest in arguing about or decifering your knowledge of amplifiers but I am interested in your apparent need to jump on a soabox and tell the rest of the world that your way is the only way. You have taken the time to denigrate some of the more experienced and educated individuals on this forum. I've not ever found that to be be the right approach.
We all believe that our way is the right way, why are the other opinions not as valid as yours?

Cal
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You seem to feel that they have more experience and/or they are more highly educated than I am and therefore I am not justified to speak on these subjects? Even though I will support my statements with proof... where they will not?... and what do you know about me cal? Nothing! But you are about to know just a little more about me and my experience very soon when I start posting data...

You are about to know that, unlike these guys, I support my statements with data and math and I am really sorry if it shows these or any other guys out here to be less than what you think they are, or even less than truthful with us if that is the case...

Its just tough, I am not here to baby sit or hold anyones hand, or
pandor to the inaccuracies they make or butter anything up to avoid confrontation...

there is nothing that the ear can hear that is not measureable... I am sure there are many out here who would disagree with this... Nonetheless I am totally aligned with Julian Hirsch on that point... and

I am very sorry to inform you that there are no mysteries in
electronics or acoustics, although there are many out here who prefer people to believe there are fairies, ghosts and goblins in their systems that make mysteriously great sound... and
even better, the philosophy that a matched amp to speaker is somehow an accurate program reproducer...

I have heard many and as of yet I have not heard a Hi z system that I truly "liked" on all levels, I have heard a few transistor systems however that I like on all levels... my designs not included... The reason being that hi z systems do not accurately reproduce the program material...

Few people out here have the luxury of listening to a system of their dreams prior to buying it... No one sends out demo amps and speakers...

It seems that so many out here are afraid of loosing friends or they lack the education and tenacity to go head to head with these guys that just spout buzz lines, and frankly that has now changed and I am very sorry if you do not like it...

There are new audio builders coming up every day and I feel they deserve to hear more than one side of the story...

destroyer X said:
to more guys, the next one to receive the "Thor" justice Hammer.

It is just a matter of time...or the guy will put his foot over the brake pedal, beeing more kind, or will be send to Andromeda...one way ticket.

I will not visit this thread again...it is enought for me.

This comment is supporting your feelings Weldon.... of course i agree with you.... more interesting the way you name sounds to me Cal...... "Call well donne...The one has the capacity to adjust all things"...strange ocurrences realted to our own pre-destination in life.... may be a justice hammer....welcome Cal!

regards,

Carlos
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You never know in the end to whom and from whom the justice hammer swings... being nice is a 2 way street... I have respect for people who put up... I have no respect for people who spout inaccuracies or generalize to the extent of inaccuracy without putting up the their data or anyone elses to support their point... So far most of the people on this site have just been spouters with little and most often nothing to support their claims...

I may and do as a whole disagree with you because that is only tru in that particular example... but nonetheless you have already earned my respect because you are willing to put up your data, by that I mean you are willing to show the work that supports your statement, I respect that, and I will put up the data that supports my statements as well that will show you that there are other ways to achieve high negative feedback without the nasty effects that you have shown in your demonstration...

You did not take into account that I have yet to speak in that tone to you or anyone else who is reasonably congenial and straight up toward me, and I never will if you continue to be reasonably congenial... On the other hand if you change your tone to the same tone or make derogatory statements toward me like these guys have then of course I will happily go there with you and respond in kind...

That and since I offer the data to prove my statements I feel that it would be an injustice to the audio community to snuff out this information and continue to leave this a one sided debate... The people who spout the loudest, and just quote buzz words all day, never show their work or support how they came to their conclusion... I will not only support my work but I will also correctly answer the very questions I ask these gentlemen who obviously do not know the answer...

In any case, I will not be intimidated on here by them or anyone else... Any data I do not have I will obtain to support my points... Every engineer should be able to easily understand the importance of high damping and low distortion, if, and only if, they are interested in exactly reproducing the original material... On the other hand they may prefer to color it until it is no longer recognizable for all I care, to suit a particular taste or bent they have, but that has nothing what so ever to do with accurate program reproduction at any volume level... and I am sorry if it disagrees with what you believe in the audio industry...

I do not force these people to their keyboards to say what they do... but when it is directed at me they will certainly get an answer in kind...

I felt it is necesary to respond to your and to Cals post as to "why"... and with that I really must get back to this project, I have customers waiting, gotta git it done... be back in a week or so with data!!... Never know if you hang around you may like it, or at least find it entertaining... Well unless you are a hard core tuber or ccs'r, then you may not be quite as entertained...
 
#55
Re: One moderator already splitted the thread...and this was made to show

destroyer X said:
to more guys, the next one to receive the "Thor" justice Hammer.

It is just a matter of time...or the guy will put his foot over the brake pedal, beeing more kind, or will be send to Andromeda...one way ticket.

I will not visit this thread again...it is enought for me.

This comment is supporting your feelings Weldon.... of course i agree with you.... more interesting the way you name sounds to me Cal...... "Call well donne...The one has the capacity to adjust all things"...strange ocurrences realted to our own pre-destination in life.... may be a justice hammer....welcome Cal!

regards,

Carlos
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I believe our sixth sense gifted and warm-harted friend from Brazil got it, here is to "cold"! :cold:

And I second Dimitris words btw.

Cheers Michael
 
#56
GRollins said:
I once thought that damping factor was really, really important. Then it was pointed out to me that it's a diminishing returns sort of thing and that a damping factor of 1000 isn't 10 times better than a damping factor of 100. Later came the realization (rather painfully, I might add) that some of the things you do to get a super-high damping factor--like huge amounts of negative feedback--have unfortunate side effects of their own and should be treated much the way you would treat a chain saw running at full throttle. If you're not careful, it'll be just a happy to take a chunk out of you as the tree you're sawing.
People besotted with high rates of negative feedback don't listen to much live, unamplified music. Otherwise, they'd realize the differences between what they think is "truth" and the sound of real instruments. And yes, it does matter, even if you listen to acdc at 135db.
Consider this: When you go to the eye doctor, he tests you using eye charts with a nonsense string of letters. This allows the doctor to fit you with lenses that will allow you to look at anything you want, from business reports to pretty girls. It does not mean that the glasses are only good for looking at strings of letters. Treat unamplified music the same way (assuming that it doesn't appeal to you). Use it to get your system set properly. Then you can listen to anything you want, secure in the knowledge that it will be in focus and with all the proper detail.
That used to seem like a wierd, complicated, and bizarre concept to me. These days, it seems pretty obvious. Just took a while for me to get there.

Grey
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Hi Grey, Carls and others....

Just thought I would drop in for a moment and say boo..Blues is waiting for me to complete the Hot Rod Aleph so I better be quick.


Your post is spot on.

Last weekend I had the pleasure if hearing the B # Big band play at a local venue called the Black Cat in Brunswick (suburb of Melbourne Aust)..they are are played with James Morrison at the Crown Casino on Thursday night so its reasonable to assume they are a reasonable band.

Anyway, the reason for bring this up is that indeed the sound of real instruments, drums 10-15 feet way, brass and all sorts is what it is and may not appeal to the hifi nutter looked on snap bang tinkle tinkle sounds.

I was actually surprised at the way the drums sounded and at the time thought ...hey my speakers ain't boomy after all. What was obvious was that the average system might have trouble with the dynamics but scaled down so as not to offend your neigbours the results can be quite enjoyable.

Previously I have owned amp with 1000:1 damping factor and over 350 watts a side and the botom line is it was very sterile processed, lean bricks and motar bass removed of nuance and timbre.

This amplifier had very high feedback and distortion was 0.002 % as measured by Julian....I can't recall his name....

My current amp has damping factor of no more than 30 (an X Aleph.....your original schematic!) and the bass is incomparable to the above amp. I call it being there.....the sounds just arrive, they are what they are. The point is the amp in not in the picture.

Of course the other point here is its only 35 watts or so into 8 ohms...my speakers are 95 db sensitivity from 32 hertz to 20kherts so who cares. In terms of dynamics I am not beaten to death like I was with the musle amp above but instead the dynamics are spine tingling, the music has soul and captures the essence of the moment just like it did when I heard the big and live. I had had the same sensation when I heard the Passlabs Rushmore's in Mr Pass's lounge room......its was so impressive Jill started dancing. We had a ball that night.

Again referring to the previous larger amp....it always sounded like a T Rex stomping around in a 51. surround demo...no more need be said.

We, the diyaudio community don't need bible bashing by some class A/B nerd ...we know what we're about......

Ian


Attached the speaker system........while the system is very revealing of dcr in the way it modifies the total Qts of the speaker and the low end response (ref Bullocks on Boxes ref) there appears to be a special phenomena that comes into play with the X Aleph which does something more than just provide contol of the woofer as though more information in terms of actual LF detail is being reproduced without a sonic signature being stamped on it.

This is a low Qts system, about 0.29 from memory, tuned in accordance with the orignal design by Greg Timbers, JBL Northridge CA.
 

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#57
Real instruments

macka said:
Anyway, the reason for bring this up is that indeed the sound of real instruments, drums 10-15 feet way, brass and all sorts is what it is and may not appeal to the hifi nutter looked on snap bang tinkle tinkle sounds.

I was actually surprised at the way the drums sounded and at the time thought ...hey my speakers ain't boomy after all. What was obvious was that the average system might have trouble with the dynamics but scaled down so as not to offend your neigbours the results can be quite enjoyable.

Previously I have owned amp with 1000:1 damping factor and over 350 watts a side and the botom line is it was very sterile processed, lean bricks and motar bass removed of nuance and timbre.
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Yes, you look at a sheet of paper with (the deam) specs and it has big power, huge damping factor, very low output impedance, blah blah blah...
But then there's a bad internal layout that makes the signal go to the longest possible paths, there's unnecessary stages and/or duplicated (and bad quality) dc coupling caps, bad volume pots, balance, tone controls, weak PSU, lots of paralleled transistors...
And then you turn on the whole bazooka and... :bawling:

Do we really need that?
Mmmm... most really good amps I've heard were low power.

http://www.lavardin.com/lavardin-itE.html
 
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