lumanauw said:
Curious...
THX specs were pimarily made for home-cinema, and it's just another (expensive) sticker that some manufacturers put on the amps, just for marketing purposes.
That money goes to George Lucas' pocket.😀
He is very wise, indeed.
He invented some 'specs' that are not much more than smoke and collects the money.
It's a question of 'prestige' to have that sticker.
But some manufacturers refuse to pay it and to have that sticker.
It's like creating the necessity for a new detergent that housewifes suddenly feel they couldn't live without.
Now my washing mashine has a thing hanging on inside to give it 'good smell'.
I never heard a decent amp with a THX logo on it.
Maybe there is, but most can't play music decently.
Just screams and explosions...
Hello Carlos, if they disturb you too much, remember
Snuberize them.... snuberise sind...or snuberizezierts!
Mande os catar coquinhos, ora pilombetas!
Send them to have coconut juice!
Ou dê lhes uma cachapada na pinha que sairão à cata da rolha... shake their champagne bottle till the cork pull up....hehe..more or less translated.
Pilombetas!...small fish that enter river black holes..hehe, also called canjirú
regards,
Carlos
Snuberize them.... snuberise sind...or snuberizezierts!
Mande os catar coquinhos, ora pilombetas!
Send them to have coconut juice!
Ou dê lhes uma cachapada na pinha que sairão à cata da rolha... shake their champagne bottle till the cork pull up....hehe..more or less translated.
Pilombetas!...small fish that enter river black holes..hehe, also called canjirú
regards,
Carlos
Re: Hello Carlos, if they disturb you too much, remember
I'm creating a 'snubberized' logo.
It lights blue, it's wonderful.
destroyer X said:
I'm creating a 'snubberized' logo.
It lights blue, it's wonderful.
jacco vermeulen said:
Are you kiddin'? Ever since Carlos mentioned that fish, I've been walking hunched over.
carlosfm said:
I recall that the specs were created by Tom Holman. I could
comment further, but Lucas was very wise in requiring non-
disclosure agreements.
😎
My understanding is that if you don't pee you are OK. If you do, the cute little fish detects it and swims "upstream". We could use a few in public swimming pools to make sure the children behave!
I think it is you who misunderstand... I was not speaking from the employers perspective I was speaking from the enigineers perspective...Arx said:
Semantics, and that is why I said call the company for the rest...Arx said:
I said this already...Arx said:
Ok here is an example... technically great for an example is extremely high negative feedback with 1 pico second delay... combine that with extremely high damping say 50,000, and extremely low distortion say .0001, zero phase shift, temperature flat, all from 20-20k and that would not be technically great, that would be technically awesome!!... Who could deny that is a dream amp? I will take 10 site unseen, and unheard prior to purchase and spank anything you can put up against it, within the guidelines of accuarate program reproduction...
sure cheap, simple and convenient are all "part" of the reason but there are several more reasons as well... like stability, virtually no warmup needed, last virtually forever, lighter to transport, more accurately reproduce program material, and best of all they wont melt the ice in your igloo like tubes do... but as far as high watt rf amps go I love tubes...Arx said:
well a good amp sounds better regardless what kind of music you push through it, or how that music was processed...Arx said:
Well I would agree with that if accurate reproduction were not the topic here... Anything other than accurate reproduction is a disservice I agree...Arx said:
As I said accurate reproduction, so thanks but no thanks...Arx said:
That is correct...phase_accurate said:
Lucas went to a theater and was not happy because he did not hear the presentation in the same manner in which he produced it...
He was unhappy because of the ""Inaccurate"" reproduction of his hard work...
So in 1983, he and his chosen top 4 engineers: Tom holman, loyd fincher, tony grimani, and steve shenofield set out to create a "reference standard" that defines "the listening environment" in theaters... The main objective is to create more than a one person sweet spot and extend that sweet spot as much as possible to the edges of the theater, ideally so everyone regardless of seating position will hear the same as the best spot in the house..
That is the sole purpose of thx... of course through necessity extended into "minimum" equipment specs to achieve these ends... and later into the home as well...
As far as amps go, the only thx specs I am aware of is that the amp must have enough power to create 85db average and sustain peaks of 105db... and be free of hiss and hum...
So manufacturers send in thier products to get the thx stamp that shows they meet the "minimum" thx specs, and that stamp indicates that your equipment possess the "ability" to provide you with the sound field described by lucas... thx has nothing to do with implying high quality in equipment...
Well it tells you worst case throughout the range, usually 20-20k... or in the good ole days whatever it was at 1000 hz lolphase_accurate said:
No it cannot tell you "exactly" to the letter, right down to the very last minute detail "exactly" how an amp will sound, but if you have the ability to relate what you hear to a spec and you know and have the ability to weigh and prioritize each spec according to its importance to your ears, and the manufacturer did not cheat, then you certainly can pick the best amp of x number of choices and be correct everytime... but you must have a thourough understanding of your capabilities and limitations to do this successfully...phase_accurate said:
Most people out here have no clu whatsoever what specs are audible and are not... or at what point does any particular spec become audible... which ones really count the most and which do not... which are most important to what they want to hear... TIM and SID for instance were proven to be measureable but unhearable in even the worst designs... So if you bought your amp because of of low tim you got screwed...
Oh and a very prominent engineer, Leach I think it was pushed low tim and sid...
That is why you see people waste big money for speaker wire when the main concern is mass for instance... Few people out here are even remotely aware that they can buy single wires and spread them apart by a foot and have vitually zero capacitance... and that is the way it is with most equipment...
so sad and such a waste...
The same goes for most equipment and accesories..
I champion accurate reproduction regardless of topology... time's up back to work for now...
rnrss said:
It seems only the top(?) dog got the credit...THX (Tomlinson Holman's eXperiment). I had initially thought Tomlinson was another last name.
NP did you also have a hand at these costly decals? The PASSDiy decals look better.
No, I was hired by Adcom to listen to the technical presentation.
Adcom did not choose at that time to be THX certified. As I have
no interest in home theater or car audio, I went to get the nifty
carry-bag they give you. I did, however, have to sign an ND to
get the bag.
😎
Adcom did not choose at that time to be THX certified. As I have
no interest in home theater or car audio, I went to get the nifty
carry-bag they give you. I did, however, have to sign an ND to
get the bag.
😎
Hey, if you and cyclotronguy are here posting, who's building the damn amplifiers?!?! Get back to work!
rnrss said:
This is sooo wrong... I mean the second part of the sentence, because yes, an amp must be able to play any kind of music.
A bad recording replayed on a good source, good amp and good speakers sounds just as crude as it is: horrible.
It can sound half acceptable on the car or on cheap midi 'hi-fi' because they heavily rely on EQs and bass boost.
There are even recordings that are 'optimized' for these environments (!), through dynamics compression, 'vicious' equalization, and all the sorts or tricks.
Put that disc on a good system and you'll gormitate.
The better the amp, the better it shows the defects of the source component and the recordings.
This is basic.🙄
out of control
rnrss,
I agree with what you have to say on many levels (your stance on the 'mystique' of high priced, high distortion amplifiers) but the way you respond (read..attack) people is not going to gain much respect for your views even if you make valid points..
If you were 'slighted' by someone else earlier in the post, you have a right to defend your views, but you might find you'll get a few more allies if you take it down a notch.
I must admit, it has been quite entertaining reading some of the posts from this thread, you even got Mr. Pass to drop in.
rnrss,
I agree with what you have to say on many levels (your stance on the 'mystique' of high priced, high distortion amplifiers) but the way you respond (read..attack) people is not going to gain much respect for your views even if you make valid points..
If you were 'slighted' by someone else earlier in the post, you have a right to defend your views, but you might find you'll get a few more allies if you take it down a notch.
I must admit, it has been quite entertaining reading some of the posts from this thread, you even got Mr. Pass to drop in.
Yeah, especially when it started out with some guy asking for a suggestion for a good beginner amp.
I'd say, build a zen.
Who cares if rnrss thinks it's bad. Who cares if he's right. You'll get something that still kicks the **** out of anything you'll find at the local wal-mart, and you'll probably learn a whole lot more than you will with a more complicated design or a chipamp.
I definitely learned a lot, and I'm not even finished building mine yet.
Maybe once it's done, I'll build a basic chipamp with some of my leftover parts and see how that compares.
Simply put, if you have a good **** filter and can see through the exaggerations and imaginations of some of the audiophile whackos (you don't need expensive caps and resistors), and can be open minded enough about accepting some distortion along with some possible benefits (unlike the spec sheet whackos), then I think that the passdiy amps are darn fine and reasonably simple projects for a relative beginner.
P.S. Don't be offended if you're one of the previously mentioned whackos. I'm not trying to start any arguments here. I'm just saying that you'll probably be best off starting with basic parts, and then experimenting after.
I'd say, build a zen.
Who cares if rnrss thinks it's bad. Who cares if he's right. You'll get something that still kicks the **** out of anything you'll find at the local wal-mart, and you'll probably learn a whole lot more than you will with a more complicated design or a chipamp.
I definitely learned a lot, and I'm not even finished building mine yet.
Maybe once it's done, I'll build a basic chipamp with some of my leftover parts and see how that compares.
Simply put, if you have a good **** filter and can see through the exaggerations and imaginations of some of the audiophile whackos (you don't need expensive caps and resistors), and can be open minded enough about accepting some distortion along with some possible benefits (unlike the spec sheet whackos), then I think that the passdiy amps are darn fine and reasonably simple projects for a relative beginner.
P.S. Don't be offended if you're one of the previously mentioned whackos. I'm not trying to start any arguments here. I'm just saying that you'll probably be best off starting with basic parts, and then experimenting after.
Just popping on here real quick like...
I picked up a niel diamond dvd on the way home yesterday and had this thing up kinda loud while I was eating dinner, maybe peaking around 113db with an average of 102ish or so and with the tone they made I thought for sure I was going to be wearing those bass drivers at the end of I am I said, as they hit roughly a 28 cycle bass note on the key boards that peaked at the same volume as the rest of the music and you would swear your woofers are going to drop in your lap... another good one for that was the first time I played harold faltermeyers axel
So as a matter of course I grabbed the headset to verify if what I heard was real or if I managed to get something really out of wack or what... turns out it was real...
Getting to the point, that inspired an interesting thought about tubes, ccs and headsets...
What do you tubers and ccs guys use to drive your headsets?
Do you use tube preamps for driving your headsets too, or just tube amps on your speakers? Does it matter what you use for a headset or?
should be wrapping this up on monday or tues the way it looks and then I will blow the dust off of this test equip and take sum pics for ya all...
I picked up a niel diamond dvd on the way home yesterday and had this thing up kinda loud while I was eating dinner, maybe peaking around 113db with an average of 102ish or so and with the tone they made I thought for sure I was going to be wearing those bass drivers at the end of I am I said, as they hit roughly a 28 cycle bass note on the key boards that peaked at the same volume as the rest of the music and you would swear your woofers are going to drop in your lap... another good one for that was the first time I played harold faltermeyers axel
So as a matter of course I grabbed the headset to verify if what I heard was real or if I managed to get something really out of wack or what... turns out it was real...
Getting to the point, that inspired an interesting thought about tubes, ccs and headsets...
What do you tubers and ccs guys use to drive your headsets?
Do you use tube preamps for driving your headsets too, or just tube amps on your speakers? Does it matter what you use for a headset or?
should be wrapping this up on monday or tues the way it looks and then I will blow the dust off of this test equip and take sum pics for ya all...
.
.
.
Response at the listening area about 14 feet from source is reasonably flat from about 22hz to 18khz:
Distortion vs Freq, approx 95db
Distortion vs volume, 1000hz, Best Vol between 75 - 90db
Couple buds dropped by the other day and just for kicks we did a few sound tests on my horn system using a behringer 8000 mic.
All measurements taken with no integration, (averaging) or time delay.
Bass: Eminence/Klipsch
Mid: Jbl/altec 511 horns
Tweet: Eminence/altec 511 horns
Bass Amp: Crown k2 (.1 distortion) 3000 damping.
Mid/Tweet Amp: Carver 500, (.05 Distortion) 350 damping.
Bass Wire: 15ft Awg00 Ultra Flex 600 amp welding cable.
Mid/Tweet Wire: 15ft Awg 1 Ultra Flex 300 amp welding cable
Electronic bass crossover is final at 1300.
Electronic midrange crossover is final at 400.
All measurements were taken using sweep tones and the rta bandwidths were set to 1/24th octave because any wider averages it to much and tends to hide errors.
It would be nearly perfectly flat using 1/3 octave for instance and not show the combing effect that is occuring in the 200 - 600 region.
i should really straighten that area too some day if i ever decide to spring for another equalizer but since the combing is pretty fine, (narrow), it still sounds pretty brite, just not quite as brassy and pure sounding in that area as it could be.
The biggest thing a person will notice with this kind of setup is that the speaker will sound more live.
If you play a guitar through a good guitar amp and speaker, (marshal/fender etc), you will notice that no matter how quiet you turn it down, it still sounds like it is extremely loud and brilliant, yet when you turn it up it just gets big and eventually huge sounding.
That is the effect you can expect with this kind of speaker set up, and with the crown amp or any high damping amp you do not need a loudness contour to increase the bass as you reduce the volume as it retains the bass linearity with virtually no dropoff like soft amps do.
Instruments tend to sound more real and begin to have that natural sibilance and ambience even down into the bass regions that is typically lost in most systems.
An interesting observation is that the distortion drops below .1 and as low as .05ish in the midrange bass driver region which is driven with a .1 distortion amp.
The next best thing to being there...
.
.
Response at the listening area about 14 feet from source is reasonably flat from about 22hz to 18khz:
Distortion vs Freq, approx 95db
Distortion vs volume, 1000hz, Best Vol between 75 - 90db
Couple buds dropped by the other day and just for kicks we did a few sound tests on my horn system using a behringer 8000 mic.
All measurements taken with no integration, (averaging) or time delay.
Bass: Eminence/Klipsch
Mid: Jbl/altec 511 horns
Tweet: Eminence/altec 511 horns
Bass Amp: Crown k2 (.1 distortion) 3000 damping.
Mid/Tweet Amp: Carver 500, (.05 Distortion) 350 damping.
Bass Wire: 15ft Awg00 Ultra Flex 600 amp welding cable.
Mid/Tweet Wire: 15ft Awg 1 Ultra Flex 300 amp welding cable
Electronic bass crossover is final at 1300.
Electronic midrange crossover is final at 400.
All measurements were taken using sweep tones and the rta bandwidths were set to 1/24th octave because any wider averages it to much and tends to hide errors.
It would be nearly perfectly flat using 1/3 octave for instance and not show the combing effect that is occuring in the 200 - 600 region.
i should really straighten that area too some day if i ever decide to spring for another equalizer but since the combing is pretty fine, (narrow), it still sounds pretty brite, just not quite as brassy and pure sounding in that area as it could be.
The biggest thing a person will notice with this kind of setup is that the speaker will sound more live.
If you play a guitar through a good guitar amp and speaker, (marshal/fender etc), you will notice that no matter how quiet you turn it down, it still sounds like it is extremely loud and brilliant, yet when you turn it up it just gets big and eventually huge sounding.
That is the effect you can expect with this kind of speaker set up, and with the crown amp or any high damping amp you do not need a loudness contour to increase the bass as you reduce the volume as it retains the bass linearity with virtually no dropoff like soft amps do.
Instruments tend to sound more real and begin to have that natural sibilance and ambience even down into the bass regions that is typically lost in most systems.
An interesting observation is that the distortion drops below .1 and as low as .05ish in the midrange bass driver region which is driven with a .1 distortion amp.
The next best thing to being there...
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