rnrss
I 20%-agree about the technical specification.
The specifications could ne used for introduction of the products or for the advertisement.
By the way, let's take a look at the audio market.
Practically, who buy the audio amplifiers based on the technical specification? And, who sells them based on the specifications?
As far as I understand, the deal is always based on listening test and its impression . . .
I'm really wondering whether your argument is valid in the current audio market . . .
Regards
jH
I 20%-agree about the technical specification.
The specifications could ne used for introduction of the products or for the advertisement.
By the way, let's take a look at the audio market.
Practically, who buy the audio amplifiers based on the technical specification? And, who sells them based on the specifications?
As far as I understand, the deal is always based on listening test and its impression . . .
I'm really wondering whether your argument is valid in the current audio market . . .
Regards
jH
rnss:
This post was not only long but also boring ! Do you really believe that the AMOUNT of distortion is the sole indicator of it's audibility.
You really sound like those know-alls that come directly from university !
Regards
Charles
This post was not only long but also boring ! Do you really believe that the AMOUNT of distortion is the sole indicator of it's audibility.
You really sound like those know-alls that come directly from university !
Regards
Charles
No moreso applies to your inability to read, where I specifically pointed toward the majority which means NOT YOU if you are not one of the majority... here try reading it again only this time very very slowlyOriginally posted by AKSA
This sounds very like a designer intent on delivering his techno-centric perception of what the market needs and be damned with what the customer actually wants........
The key word is understand... Like i said you need to understand them... again understand the specs... again it is something you must learn... no one can "really" teach you how to make this interpretation... It must be experienced through practice.... and AGAIN provided the manufacturer is reputable...Originally posted by AKSA
I would stress that decades of engineering masterpieces and wonderful specs have still not given us measurements which can be predictably and easily relied upon to tell the consumer exactly how it will sound.Hugh
so think UNDERSTANDING, think MAJORITY, think REPUTABLE... then maybe you will begin to grasp what I was trying to convey...
The only thing you are absolutely gauranteed in life is taxes and death
rnss,
It's a great pity that you come across as arrogant, dogmatic and coarse with the language, it really is. I'm sure you are very clever indeed.
You must not assume that criticism always comes from people who have absolutely no background in your chosen field of expertise. To do so is to underestimate them, lose credibility, and so put yourself in a weakened position. When you make categoric, generalist statements this inevitably follows.
I won't comment further; this is inflammatory already.
Cheers,
Hugh
It's a great pity that you come across as arrogant, dogmatic and coarse with the language, it really is. I'm sure you are very clever indeed.
You must not assume that criticism always comes from people who have absolutely no background in your chosen field of expertise. To do so is to underestimate them, lose credibility, and so put yourself in a weakened position. When you make categoric, generalist statements this inevitably follows.
I won't comment further; this is inflammatory already.
Cheers,
Hugh
Ha,
Methinks you are all victims of audio marketing bias by the inferior manufacturers. They tried building low distortion products and either couldn't or didn't like the sound because it was too revealing of their evaluation chain weaknesses that they, in frustration, reverted to previous, naive, designs that veiled better. I worked for one such well known overhyped US company.
So what could they do but invent the hype that THD is meaningless - gives them open slather to sustain their 'black art' at fanciful prices as if they were beholden of some higher knowledge! It's all ********.
Of course THD is not the whole story and we need to analyse the makeup for more associative analysis but hey, that's progress.
Cheers,
Greg
Methinks you are all victims of audio marketing bias by the inferior manufacturers. They tried building low distortion products and either couldn't or didn't like the sound because it was too revealing of their evaluation chain weaknesses that they, in frustration, reverted to previous, naive, designs that veiled better. I worked for one such well known overhyped US company.
So what could they do but invent the hype that THD is meaningless - gives them open slather to sustain their 'black art' at fanciful prices as if they were beholden of some higher knowledge! It's all ********.
Of course THD is not the whole story and we need to analyse the makeup for more associative analysis but hey, that's progress.
Cheers,
Greg
jh6you said:
Well as I elluded too many times in my previous posts... I am all about "accurate" reproduction of the program material...
If it is common practice for all the manufacturers to lie about there specs then I suppose it is not valid...
Before I picked up my crown I called them up amd asked them for the rest of the info on the amp and they rattled it right off the top of their head and of course verified it to be sure....
When I actually got the amp it performed to my expectations formed from the specs...
Now I bought this as well as several other amps based solely on specs... but then I have been playing with this stuff for over 35 years...
Specs tell you what your ears will or will not hear... based on hearing tests done on each item...
You seem to use a K-amp, aren't you ? And you think its bass authority arises from its high damping factor only ?
If this is the case I definitely question your technical knowledge !
Regards
Charles
If this is the case I definitely question your technical knowledge !
Regards
Charles
The ability to reproduce clean, powerful and effortless bass (accurate in a single term), independant of level.
You still haven't answered my question about the amp you use !
Regards
Charles
rnrss said:
I admit that you are . . .
I also like to require to get tech sepcs whenever I buy something.
By the way, in my opinion, the audio market is far away from the persuit of the precison sound. The market wants the products having emotional attraction.
If you are satisfied with the amplifier and in addition if the spec is by chance also well aligned with your satisfaction, you are a lucky guy.
By the way, you are demonstrating us your successful case, just one case. Based upon it, should I apply the same principle for all other products? I don't think so.
Regards
jH
rnrss said:
A classic statement every student of engineering schools for the last 25 years has be warned for.
Shouldn't this be split off again, to the Engineering Humor thread, Mighty Mods ?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7181&highlight=
jh6you said:
There are some (less serious) companies that spec PMPO power ratings. 😀
And some customers love it.
'Cool, my new midi system has 1000W PMPO'.
What?
10W?
😎
Yeah, these are junk components, but some still say 'hi-fi' on it.
I must stress that the 'high-fidelity' term was for serious equipment, up to the late 60's.
Now the word is too banalized and disrespected and we have to call 'high-end' to a product that should be plain hi-fi.
moamps said:
I recall that John Horgan's "The End of Science" (required
reading) explored the attribution of that quote and decided that
Kelvin had been misquoted.
It is also not true that the head of the patent office at the
turn of the century (1900, that is) quit his job, citing that
everything had been invented.
The latter legend is particularly delicious, since the out-of-context quote was lifted from the Commisioner's request for increased funding for the patent office to handle the huge flow of inventions.
Rnrss, you seem to be misunderstanding a lot of what some people are trying to say here.
Most engineers (good ones from the perspective of those paying them), are less concerned with technical perfection, and more concerned with giving the people paying them something that meets the customer (meaning their employers) wishlists. This doesn't mean that they aren't able to design a better amp, just that their design goals aren't necessarily ideal to all end customers (me for example).
Specs are important. Noone with any clue whatsoever will deny that. The specs, as you say, are based on what's coming out of the amplifier. That doesn't mean that the specs tell you everything you need to know. Some of us do want the most realistic and accurate reproduction we can get, but that doesn't necessarily mean the spec sheets are the place to start.
The average spec sheet on most amplifiers doesn't really give you that much of an idea what it will sound like. There's always a limited selection of specifications in a limited range of test conditions. Most common of course being thd at 1watt/meter/kHz into a resistive load (or maybe several different ones)., Power output (into the ideal resistive load), damping factor, probably frequency response, etc.
All in all not a bad list to narrow down your candidates, but it's certainly not going to make me buy an amp without a listening to it a bit first.
You say "Specs determine performance" I think you have it backwards. An amp with bad specs is a bad amp, and an amp with good specs may be a good amp, but only if the things you aren't measuring are just as good as the things you are.
"Technically great is in fact the number 1 priority in an engineer's eyes"... Hmm, not so sure about this one either. A good engineer knows what can be done, but if he knows what's good for him, he'll do what the man who signs the cheques is asking him to. That's generally going to be whatever satisfys the marketing and sales people within the allotted budget.
As far as your comments about the majority wanting low distortion, and that's why we use transistors, I don't think I've ever heard something so stupid in my whole life.
They use transistors in everything because they are cheaper than tubes. I would tend to agree that they are better, but that's not why they get used. They are cheap and convenient, plain and simple.
The majority wants to turn it up real loud, hear thud thud thud with a ticka ticka high hat on top.
The majority are happy just to have their brainwashed in overcompressed overprocessed manufactured music played back in a somewhat recognizable fashion with enough thump that they can tell where the beat is.
Even that sounds better than listening to amplifier specs and test tones to me.
People on both sides of this thing are "doing the audio community a disservice"
Come join us in the middle. The tunes are best here.
Most engineers (good ones from the perspective of those paying them), are less concerned with technical perfection, and more concerned with giving the people paying them something that meets the customer (meaning their employers) wishlists. This doesn't mean that they aren't able to design a better amp, just that their design goals aren't necessarily ideal to all end customers (me for example).
Specs are important. Noone with any clue whatsoever will deny that. The specs, as you say, are based on what's coming out of the amplifier. That doesn't mean that the specs tell you everything you need to know. Some of us do want the most realistic and accurate reproduction we can get, but that doesn't necessarily mean the spec sheets are the place to start.
The average spec sheet on most amplifiers doesn't really give you that much of an idea what it will sound like. There's always a limited selection of specifications in a limited range of test conditions. Most common of course being thd at 1watt/meter/kHz into a resistive load (or maybe several different ones)., Power output (into the ideal resistive load), damping factor, probably frequency response, etc.
All in all not a bad list to narrow down your candidates, but it's certainly not going to make me buy an amp without a listening to it a bit first.
You say "Specs determine performance" I think you have it backwards. An amp with bad specs is a bad amp, and an amp with good specs may be a good amp, but only if the things you aren't measuring are just as good as the things you are.
"Technically great is in fact the number 1 priority in an engineer's eyes"... Hmm, not so sure about this one either. A good engineer knows what can be done, but if he knows what's good for him, he'll do what the man who signs the cheques is asking him to. That's generally going to be whatever satisfys the marketing and sales people within the allotted budget.
As far as your comments about the majority wanting low distortion, and that's why we use transistors, I don't think I've ever heard something so stupid in my whole life.
They use transistors in everything because they are cheaper than tubes. I would tend to agree that they are better, but that's not why they get used. They are cheap and convenient, plain and simple.
The majority wants to turn it up real loud, hear thud thud thud with a ticka ticka high hat on top.
The majority are happy just to have their brainwashed in overcompressed overprocessed manufactured music played back in a somewhat recognizable fashion with enough thump that they can tell where the beat is.
Even that sounds better than listening to amplifier specs and test tones to me.
People on both sides of this thing are "doing the audio community a disservice"
Come join us in the middle. The tunes are best here.
John Curl once wrote that when he designs an amp, he is stuck with the specification required (eg. for THX amp requires 0.0....%THD limit threshold). Makes him to use feedback (while he personaly likes non-feedback)
If the specs (THD) doesn't show how an amp will sound, so what is the main purpose of the "minimum specification" like THX amps requires? And who makes those specs?
Those standards are there to guarantee that a piece of equipment fulfills some minimal quality requirements - but these will not say how an amp will SOUND.
Just one hint:
Measurements are usually taken into a resistive load. An amp will not necessarily show the same behaviour (i.e. offer the same measurement results) into a real speaker. There are amps out there that do behave almost the same way and those are usually (but not always) very fine amps.
Furthermore THD figures don't tell you what spectral distribution the added harmincs have. But spectral distribution of harmonic content has a great impact on how THD is perceived.
Even with more specs shown than usual and a lot of experience you can't tell from the datasheet alone how an amp will sound.
Apart from that:
You look at the data-sheet with your eyes and listen to the amp with your ears.
Regards
Charles
Just one hint:
Measurements are usually taken into a resistive load. An amp will not necessarily show the same behaviour (i.e. offer the same measurement results) into a real speaker. There are amps out there that do behave almost the same way and those are usually (but not always) very fine amps.
Furthermore THD figures don't tell you what spectral distribution the added harmincs have. But spectral distribution of harmonic content has a great impact on how THD is perceived.
Even with more specs shown than usual and a lot of experience you can't tell from the datasheet alone how an amp will sound.
Apart from that:
You look at the data-sheet with your eyes and listen to the amp with your ears.
Regards
Charles
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