At the limits for sure. Every vented sub exhibits vent noise IME. One vent was by far the worst and showed up as more vent compression. 2 vents wasn't bad. Sub wasn't really designed for 1 vent use. It's not enough vent area.
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There are a few guys who have requested these plans and are having a go at building these and at least 2 other people besides myself have Skhorn's already. Hopefully they will post some of their builds or opinions on it.
May as well throw in a measurement graph or two for good measure. Distortion limited and maximum burst output using a Speakerpower SP1-6000 amplifier with all vents open and with 1 vent blocked per side.
May as well throw in a measurement graph or two for good measure. Distortion limited and maximum burst output using a Speakerpower SP1-6000 amplifier with all vents open and with 1 vent blocked per side.
Hi, I got curious today how my 18sw115-8 would work in the skhorn cabinet and compared it to a few other drivers in various simulations. Note that I'm very newbie with Hornresp and I'm sure anyone could point out any mistakes made if so.
Thought it could interest somebody
As of now I've got my two drivers loaded in Keystones and wonder how one Skhorn would compare to two keystones with them. If it's possible to get hold on CAD files for CNC I might be interested in giving it a go, would it be possible Ricci?
Other than that I must say I'm surprised they keep up well with the 21ds115. Also you can clearly see the cabinet are designed with 21Ipal in mind! Real beasts
From left to right:
18sw115-8(black) vs 21sw152-4(grey)
18sw115-8(grey) vs 21ds115-8(black)
18xl1800-8(grey) vs 18sw115-8(black)
21ipal(black) vs 18sw115-8(grey)
Thought it could interest somebody
As of now I've got my two drivers loaded in Keystones and wonder how one Skhorn would compare to two keystones with them. If it's possible to get hold on CAD files for CNC I might be interested in giving it a go, would it be possible Ricci?
Other than that I must say I'm surprised they keep up well with the 21ds115. Also you can clearly see the cabinet are designed with 21Ipal in mind! Real beasts
From left to right:
18sw115-8(black) vs 21sw152-4(grey)
18sw115-8(grey) vs 21ds115-8(black)
18xl1800-8(grey) vs 18sw115-8(black)
21ipal(black) vs 18sw115-8(grey)
Attachments
Hi!
If you compare drivers with Hornresp look for OHMs and Volts with different drivers
8 ohm = 2,83 Volts
4 ohm = 2,00 Volts
2 ohm = 1,41 Volts
21ipal(black) is 2 ohm, so you should put in Hornresp (1,41 Volts) vs 18sw115-8(grey) is 8 ohm, so you should put in Hornresp (2,83 Volts) to compare simulations!!
Oh, thanks!
I now used 2P for 18sw115-8(2 Eg), 21sw152-4(with 1,41 Eg) and 18xl1800-8(2Eg), for the 21Ipal 2S(1,41 Eg). Hope this is correct
Left to right:
18sw115-8(grey) vs 21sw152-4(black)
18sw115-8(grey) vs 21ds115-8(black)
18sw115-8(grey) vs 18xl1800-8(black)
18sw115-8(grey) vs 21Ipal-1(grey)
Attachments
Will the TD18H 8ohm work in this design? Interested in home use 30-150hz range.
Thanks.
Qms: 5.9
Vas: 390 L
Cms: .19 mm/N
Mms: 165 g
Rms: 5.03 kg/S
Xmax: 14 mm(peak)
Xmech: 25 mm(peak)
Sd: 1218 sqcm
Vd: 3.42L (p-p)
Qes: .23
Re: 5.6 ohm
Le: .41 mH
Z: 8 ohm
Bl: 27.06 T/m
Pe: 1000W (cont.)
Qts: .22
1WSPL: 98.15 dB
2.83V: 99.7 dB
Thanks.
Qms: 5.9
Vas: 390 L
Cms: .19 mm/N
Mms: 165 g
Rms: 5.03 kg/S
Xmax: 14 mm(peak)
Xmech: 25 mm(peak)
Sd: 1218 sqcm
Vd: 3.42L (p-p)
Qes: .23
Re: 5.6 ohm
Le: .41 mH
Z: 8 ohm
Bl: 27.06 T/m
Pe: 1000W (cont.)
Qts: .22
1WSPL: 98.15 dB
2.83V: 99.7 dB
I don't know how a Skhorn would compare with the keystone sub. I have not used those or modeled them. I suspect that a double 21" version using the 21ds115 or 152's should compare well against 2 keystones while using less overall cabinet. Most of that I'm basing off of comparison to the Othorn.
What the 21" drivers do is not provide more small signal voltage sensitivity, but provide greater power handling, less output compression, probably lower distortion due to less driver excursion for the same output SPL and higher maximum output before reaching xmax. This type of cab is expected to be hit with signals having large voltages often. The 21's should help the cab to respond in a more linear manner for a bit longer than the 18's. That type of thing does not show up in a 2 volt simulation. Other than that yes there are a number of 18's and 21's that appear to work well in this cab.
I haven't modeled it. It may.
I personally would not choose that driver for this application though. (I have a pair of 4 ohm Apollo version.) The reasons why are that the drivers have a 2.5" diameter coil and I do not think they will handle large amounts of long term power, in an excursion limited cab such as this, as well as some of the pro drivers with higher AES power ratings. I don't know if the 1000w TD18 rating is an equivalent rating to the AES test or how it was derived. A bigger factor for me is that the suspension is very soft on them and the cone is very lightweight. I have doubts about how well it will handle high pressures such as seen in a cab like this.
Again it may be perfectly fine but my gut would lean towards something a little more rugged and abuse tolerant.
What the 21" drivers do is not provide more small signal voltage sensitivity, but provide greater power handling, less output compression, probably lower distortion due to less driver excursion for the same output SPL and higher maximum output before reaching xmax. This type of cab is expected to be hit with signals having large voltages often. The 21's should help the cab to respond in a more linear manner for a bit longer than the 18's. That type of thing does not show up in a 2 volt simulation. Other than that yes there are a number of 18's and 21's that appear to work well in this cab.
I haven't modeled it. It may.
I personally would not choose that driver for this application though. (I have a pair of 4 ohm Apollo version.) The reasons why are that the drivers have a 2.5" diameter coil and I do not think they will handle large amounts of long term power, in an excursion limited cab such as this, as well as some of the pro drivers with higher AES power ratings. I don't know if the 1000w TD18 rating is an equivalent rating to the AES test or how it was derived. A bigger factor for me is that the suspension is very soft on them and the cone is very lightweight. I have doubts about how well it will handle high pressures such as seen in a cab like this.
Again it may be perfectly fine but my gut would lean towards something a little more rugged and abuse tolerant.
Thanks for the response! The fact that the 18sw115 simulate with good sensitivity should mean they are a good match for the cab within its own limits atleast.
I have an amp that can push 2300w in 4 ohm cont. and it can drive two 18sw115-8 each channel, not sure if it would be able to push two 21ds115-8 each channel, which might make the upgrade in drivers somewhat pointless.
However I'm in the position to decide whether to get two drivers and use them for two additional keystones, or if there is a possibility to try the skhorns(get the cnc files)? Not that I'm not satisfied with th but trying new is always fun
If it's possible, my e-mail is osse1987[at]hotmail.com
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Thanks! I did simulate it and to me, applying power and full excursion, it seemed to put out 1.5-2 db more if I simulated correctly. I don't know what to expect of the real life difference due to power compressions and losses.
If I end up using other drivers I might just make the upgrade to 21ds115 instead of 18ds115. With the same diameter VC they should be able to take roughly the same long term power and I'm able to heat up my 18sw115 to about 100°C if I want
Well since it is your money and you are buying drivers... I would go for the 21DS115.
(I should be testing the cab with those drivers in the next few months.) But seriously...Even if you do not have a big enough amplifier to "push" them all of the way, that just means that the output remains clean and easy up until the amp gives out. The extra 3dB or so worth of displacement from the 21's goes further towards lowering distortion than you would think.
Whatever you decide I look forward to your build and thoughts on how the cab sounds.
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@ Josh Ricci
Interesting project !
I've stayed away from 6th etc orders, due to Lots of people on forums saying they didn't sound good. Plus i've heard quite a number of "pro" ones over the years that sound one note & tiresome ! I realise that the T/S & box build is more critical with these designs, so it "might" be due to mismatches ?
Anyway, i'm looking forward to seeing how this build matches the sims etc when tested
I figured I would revisit this subject. Bandpasses and other types of high order compound loadings often get a very bad rap as far as sound quality goes. We've all heard the way they get described as sounding: One note, booming, sloppy, notes over hanging, smeared, tubby, etc. A lot of us have heard terrible sounding subs that do just that so it is no surprise they have this type of stigma. All of that goes back to subpar, compromised or flawed designs in my view.
To me the Skhorn cab or MAUL sounds nothing like any of those descriptors commonly used to describe BP or compound designs. The measurements bear that out as well. In my experience it comes down to using powerful, well damped drivers and spending time during the design phase to produce a system that responds smoothly over a large bandwidth, remains linear to very large signals and does not store too much energy in the bandwidth of interest for the device. It all comes down to the individual design. There can be excellent 6th order subs.
Somehow my post got deleted.
Josh it was not my intention to 'attack' your bandpass SKHorn design. I know you have designed excellent bass-bins. It is just my experience with BP designs from a couple of well know pro brands all sounded meeeh. So this is where my skepticism comes from. I am sure your design will proof otherwise. Maybe I will build a prototype later this year. I do not have time now since the outdoor festival season is in full swing.
Josh it was not my intention to 'attack' your bandpass SKHorn design. I know you have designed excellent bass-bins. It is just my experience with BP designs from a couple of well know pro brands all sounded meeeh. So this is where my skepticism comes from. I am sure your design will proof otherwise. Maybe I will build a prototype later this year. I do not have time now since the outdoor festival season is in full swing.
No worries. I never thought that you did at all.
I only quoted those comments because I was reading back through the thread and came on the brief discussion about it. Count me as one of the guys who has heard many crappy BP or other odd sub designs.
The point of my comment was simply that high order BP, horn, or compound designs do not inherently sound bad. They can perform very well. It takes a bit more care during the design phase, versus something like a direct radiator, IB or big FLH though.
Josh, Nice build! What tooling did you use on your router? Looks really clean! Do you have a vacuum hold-down pump or ?
I can't take credit for the build. Thankfully I've had a couple of DIYers with access to cnc shops who've helped me out on my last few cab designs. This one was cut and assembled by a guy named Ti.
Fantastic! It looks like a really clean route. How long did it take to machine 1 sheet?
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