I am going to hazard a guess that mixing oil types essentially means you contaminated/compromised the original oil. While it's possible in some instances to safely mix oils, but generally it's not a good idea, particularly not when sintered bronze is being used.
If I remember right, the kit you are talking about uses a little cup that fits over the idler shaft. Correct? If so, you filled that with oil, and the idler runs in that oil bath. If that's Simone's idler, then as it runs, some oil from the bushing will through capillary action, come out of the bushing and mix with the oil in the bath. When the idler is at rest, as it cools down, the oil will retreat into the bushing. The comings and goings of oil to the pores of the bushing may be very small, but still could explain the black in the oil that you are seeing.
Hi Erocka2000,
This is slightly off so I hope you don't mind a few questions. Did you send your Td124 to schopper just for the installation of the idler wheel noise reduction kit or did you have other mods done as well on your table? More importantly, could you give us a review of the mod? I want to know if and how this mod had changed your 124's performance.
Regards,
David
I sent my table to Schopper for a complete restoration. It was not a pleasant experience. First, they told me to ship the table without the heavy iron platter; telling me to remove it from the spindle. I asked them how I was supposed to reattach and align it and they said it was self-aligning, which it was not.
When the table came back to me (after a very short period of time - I was expecting and wanting them to take a little bit longer on it), the main bearing cap they installed was already bent from them over tightening the screws and it had no seal, so oil would drip out. When I attached iron platter back to the spindle to lower it in to the bearing, it would just drop right down, with no resistance. Because they didn't have the heavy platter, they also didn't adjust the clutch so that I had to re-adjust it myself.
They also rebuilt the motor, which I think is okay, though it's very sensitive to the voltage it receives (I'm currently pondering buying the Phoenix Engineering Roadrunner tachometer and 25W Eagle PSU to help). There was just a bunch of other little things that were not up to par especially for the price they charge. I kept emailing them, but the owner of the company refused to answer any of my questions.
I ultimately sent the table to Jim Campbell to realign the platter on the spindle and to add a heavy brass bearing end-cap. I also had him change the bushings in the main bearing, as the originals had become a little long in the tooth.
Overall, I would not recommend Schopper to anyone. They're service is subpar regardless of what they charge. They should not be considered the authority on the TD124 as far as I'm concerned. And the arrogance of their owner is very off-putting.
When the table came back to me (after a very short period of time - I was expecting and wanting them to take a little bit longer on it), the main bearing cap they installed was already bent from them over tightening the screws and it had no seal, so oil would drip out. When I attached iron platter back to the spindle to lower it in to the bearing, it would just drop right down, with no resistance. Because they didn't have the heavy platter, they also didn't adjust the clutch so that I had to re-adjust it myself.
They also rebuilt the motor, which I think is okay, though it's very sensitive to the voltage it receives (I'm currently pondering buying the Phoenix Engineering Roadrunner tachometer and 25W Eagle PSU to help). There was just a bunch of other little things that were not up to par especially for the price they charge. I kept emailing them, but the owner of the company refused to answer any of my questions.
I ultimately sent the table to Jim Campbell to realign the platter on the spindle and to add a heavy brass bearing end-cap. I also had him change the bushings in the main bearing, as the originals had become a little long in the tooth.
Overall, I would not recommend Schopper to anyone. They're service is subpar regardless of what they charge. They should not be considered the authority on the TD124 as far as I'm concerned. And the arrogance of their owner is very off-putting.
The other thing I should mention is I tried to buy one of the new main bearings that Schopper sells, but they refused to sell it to me. Not sure why. Maybe they're not as good as they're touted to be.
Depending on when this was it could be as simple as the agreement they have with whoever is the current U.S. Schopper distributor.
Sorry to hear about the other experiences you had.
Apparently Mirko now has an improved bearing assembly and spindle for the 124 which from all accounts is very nice. Might want to look into that.
I'm not sure about the Schopper idler oil bath, shouldn't be necessary IMVLE.
Possibly user510 has some further thoughts about this issue.
Sorry to hear about the other experiences you had.
Apparently Mirko now has an improved bearing assembly and spindle for the 124 which from all accounts is very nice. Might want to look into that.
I'm not sure about the Schopper idler oil bath, shouldn't be necessary IMVLE.
Possibly user510 has some further thoughts about this issue.
I don't think so, as I believe they manage everything directly these days. Either way, if that was the case, they could have just pointed me towards the proper dealer.
There is quite a lot to sort through in the above post.
You say you sent your td124 to Schopper for a full restoration and that it was not a pleasant experience. I'm guessing part of that unpleasantness was about a disagreement regarding the removal of the main brg shaft from the platter due to concerns about alignments being lost and that they (Schopper) say that the bearing self-aligns to the platter.
I have encountered this with other folks who have had dealings with Schopper. My experience is that you can lose or gain .005" in platter runout (off center, platter to bearing shaft). I've been able to get the machined ring that is engaged by the idler wheel to run true to shaft center within .001 inches. Without working at this I have seen as much as .005 runout at the same feature. But, when you get the ider path to run true other parts of the platter may show some small amounts of deviation from shaft center. Usualy less than .005. I'm guessing factory spec for platter to bearing centering must have been close to the .005" I'm seeing.
In the end, the Schopper philosophy of removing the bearing shaft from the platter for shipping may be a valid and safe practice. Perhaps others have seen exceptions to my observations. It is worth gathering more data. Otherwise, the practice of removing the platter from the shaft simplifies shipping quite a lot.
re: main bearing caps. This piece is thin metal and is commonly bent into a slightly convex shape (looking from the outside) due to the flimsyness of the thin metal and the forces being exerted upon it even during normal operation.
re: Phoenix roadrunner/and Eagle. (tach and PS) . How about some input from KevinKR on this. I also think it has been discussed in recent years the advantages afforded by specialized power supplies with frequency generators on this hybrid belt/idler deck.
The work done by Jim Campbell seems without fault.
re: black oil at the idler carrier, the Audiosilente idler wheel and the noise reduction kit from Schopper.
The Schopper kit pictured above comes with lube. If Schopper, who appear to have installed it, used their lube on that AudioSilente idler wheel... and as noted previously that the afforementioned idler wheel comes impregnated with a different lube in its sae841 bushings, this might account for the black oil you see. I have heard that the Schopper oil supplied with this kit is a custom mix by them. This could be your mismatch.
Personally, I would have avoided the noise reduction kit entirely. There is some audible noise at the stepped-pulley/idler wheel adjunct that seems to be more of an airborne thing as opposed to any surface-borne vibes that might get into the groove/stylus interface.
To conclude; if you want to retain the Audiosilente idler wheel, lose the Schopper noise reduction oil bath kit and just use the stock thrust washer.
If you want to retain the Schopper noise reduction oil bath kit, I'd use an idler wheel that has a lube compatible with the Schopper goop.
-Steve
Thank you for the info. However, this is why I initially asked about the washers that go below the idler. I do not have any and need to buy them. If someone can provide links, it would be most appreciated. Otherwise, I have to continue to use the oil bath.
As for the Phoenix items. I believe these are a little bit different from you standard PSU, as the tachometer used a sensor and a magnet (similar to the way the Linn Radikal operates) that assesses the speed on each revolution, and then communicates with the Eagle PSU to either raise or lower the voltage to achieve proper speed. If used in conjunction with the TD124 speed knob for 33 and 45, the voltage should only have to be adjusted a little bit to have the table spin at 33 or 45.
Pitty you have these experience with Schopper they have a lot of expertise most off all of us I think in the total revisions .The platter needs always centering for the best results , low wow , . Concerning the teflon washer please send me a PM and I send you one no problem.
Phoenix I going to try these but have some questions about it as they have been answered I decide whether I'm going to buy him, I got the runner already.
Volken
Floathing motor trust bearing
Encouraged by Nigel started with experimenting with a magnetic floating motor trust bearing for the E50 motor , work in progress.
Encouraged by Nigel started with experimenting with a magnetic floating motor trust bearing for the E50 motor , work in progress.
Mirko Platters and Bearings
I have two of Mirko's platters and spindle and bearing assemblies, one for the TD 124 and the other for a Garrard 301. The bearings are complete and longer than the originals. They work perfectly and have made an improvement in the sound. They are well made and no faffing around is needed with aligning the platters to the spindle on the Thorens.
The pricing is attractive, but as Mirko is a one man shop, orders take time and patience is advised. Most things are made to order and one gets in line. I have spoken with him at length on a number of occasions over the years and have learned a lot and enjoyed speaking with him. Again, in dealing with an order, patience is absolutely required.
I have two of Mirko's platters and spindle and bearing assemblies, one for the TD 124 and the other for a Garrard 301. The bearings are complete and longer than the originals. They work perfectly and have made an improvement in the sound. They are well made and no faffing around is needed with aligning the platters to the spindle on the Thorens.
The pricing is attractive, but as Mirko is a one man shop, orders take time and patience is advised. Most things are made to order and one gets in line. I have spoken with him at length on a number of occasions over the years and have learned a lot and enjoyed speaking with him. Again, in dealing with an order, patience is absolutely required.
You obviously never owned one, or maybe you did as it is true in context of a Garrard 301. 401 is more TD124 style.
I find the JVC L3-E and 5-E surprisngly able to compete. These are nothing much to look at. My friend Paul Stewart ex of JVC likes me saying this. TT81 being the one we should look for. The JVC was the blueprint for the Technics as JVC was the research side. The 5E looks to be no match for a Dual CS505. In fact it kills an LP12 if bass is the question. Timing if you like. Unlike the Technics less treble fizz. If looking for a cheap workhorse it is great. One can use it very drunk. The AT93 style PU is OK. The generic NOS I bought as DSC is not bad. Two friends now have turntables I like to visit. Sorry to say the TD124 won't always beat them if not tip top. The JVC PU arms also seem well thought out. Possibly stronger than state of the art designs as shorter. A Lotus 7 type turntable. 3 looks best, 5 sounds a tad better.
This was in replay to someone saying too much talk about TD124. I should have quoted. Anyway I hope someone befits from this. I have given up with DIY Audio. Seems my accouunt still active so thought TD124 worthy. This is a nice truthful part of DIY audio where people think before they write.
I find the JVC L3-E and 5-E surprisngly able to compete. These are nothing much to look at. My friend Paul Stewart ex of JVC likes me saying this. TT81 being the one we should look for. The JVC was the blueprint for the Technics as JVC was the research side. The 5E looks to be no match for a Dual CS505. In fact it kills an LP12 if bass is the question. Timing if you like. Unlike the Technics less treble fizz. If looking for a cheap workhorse it is great. One can use it very drunk. The AT93 style PU is OK. The generic NOS I bought as DSC is not bad. Two friends now have turntables I like to visit. Sorry to say the TD124 won't always beat them if not tip top. The JVC PU arms also seem well thought out. Possibly stronger than state of the art designs as shorter. A Lotus 7 type turntable. 3 looks best, 5 sounds a tad better.
This was in replay to someone saying too much talk about TD124. I should have quoted. Anyway I hope someone befits from this. I have given up with DIY Audio. Seems my accouunt still active so thought TD124 worthy. This is a nice truthful part of DIY audio where people think before they write.
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Can someone please tell me the diameter of the idler wheel spindle? I want to try and buy some washers to try out.
Erocka, see Volken's reply (#1911) above, you really, really should take him up on the offer. He's the guy behind Hanze HiFi, a very good source of parts and information on the 124.