I started with the TT about 4 years ago, then moved abroad and didn't take it with, now I'm getting back into it.
I had replaced the end-cap and thrust-plate and oiled the well. I had used normal SAE20 motor oil. I'll look for turbine/electric motor oil this time.
I will be doing a motor rebuild and replacing almost all other bushings. The idler wheel was noisy (a knocking sound) before I oiled it again, then it was silent, which tells me it's probably a bit worn.
Is the ball important? What size is it?
I can't seem to find bearings for the motor. Just the Italian ones which seem to be normal (not sintered) bronze. I bought the rest from the Spanish seller.
I had replaced the end-cap and thrust-plate and oiled the well. I had used normal SAE20 motor oil. I'll look for turbine/electric motor oil this time.
I will be doing a motor rebuild and replacing almost all other bushings. The idler wheel was noisy (a knocking sound) before I oiled it again, then it was silent, which tells me it's probably a bit worn.
Is the ball important? What size is it?
I can't seem to find bearings for the motor. Just the Italian ones which seem to be normal (not sintered) bronze. I bought the rest from the Spanish seller.
There are a couple of sporadic sellers on eBay of motor bushings. My experiences with them have not be very positive. Best to stick with the originals unless they are badly worn, in which case the best option is probably Simone Luchetti's bushings. (The Italian ones you referenced)
The ball bearing size is referenced somewhere within this thread. Both motor and main bearing ball bearings can be replaced.
The ball bearing size is referenced somewhere within this thread. Both motor and main bearing ball bearings can be replaced.
Here is a shot showing my MKII on slate plinth with latest arm/cartridge combination. I think I could have installed the arm on a standard arm board, but want to make sure everything fit.
The table is mounted directly on the slate, no mushrooms employed.
The table is mounted directly on the slate, no mushrooms employed.
Attachments
First post here. I was encouraged by user510 to read this thread and I decided to join. 189 pages will keep my busy for a while. I'm currently on page 42. Lots of good info. The reason I'm here is to learn more about the TD124. I'd been considering one and finally picked one up a few months back. I finished the restoration (if there is such a thing as finishing) a few weeks ago and have been enjoying the table since. Prior to this I restored a TD160 and an Empire 208. I have a TD125 in process. Here are a couple of pictures of my TD124.
Welcome to the forum terrya! Yes it is a long, long thread. lol Hope you enjoy it..
Your 124 looks very nice!
Your 124 looks very nice!
Thanks. I'm enjoying it so far. It's biggest competitor in my collection is the Empire, but I think the TD124 might have a slight edge. I like them both though. The Empire is pretty sweet.
Looking forward to seeing your progress and the input by others over the last few years. Should be fun.
Looking forward to seeing your progress and the input by others over the last few years. Should be fun.
motor vibration
I have read through this entire thread, along with the one on Vinylengine, and I don't think this has been addressed, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
When I rebuilt the motor on my td124 it took me several tries to fit the upper and lower bearing assemblies without the rotor contacting the stator; even when I finally did there was still more vibration than I thought acceptable.
I looked again at the motor and noticed the 4 holes in the casings. At this point it occurred to me that it would be possible to center the rotor by slipping strips of paper or plastic of the correct thickness through the holes while assembling the motor. I recommend working out the required thickness before assembling the motor then extracting the slips through the holes once the casings have been fitted. The result was significantly less vibration and a much quicker assembly.
I have read through this entire thread, along with the one on Vinylengine, and I don't think this has been addressed, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
When I rebuilt the motor on my td124 it took me several tries to fit the upper and lower bearing assemblies without the rotor contacting the stator; even when I finally did there was still more vibration than I thought acceptable.
I looked again at the motor and noticed the 4 holes in the casings. At this point it occurred to me that it would be possible to center the rotor by slipping strips of paper or plastic of the correct thickness through the holes while assembling the motor. I recommend working out the required thickness before assembling the motor then extracting the slips through the holes once the casings have been fitted. The result was significantly less vibration and a much quicker assembly.
I actually haven't encountered any significant problems reassembling the motor on more than a half dozen I have worked on, I usually just put the screws in loosely and align the top and bottom covers roughly to the stator core. I always do final adjustments with motor running and a stethoscope in order to minimize motor noise as I tighten the screws.
I suspect your technique should work quite well, I wonder if it results in an alignment that is comparably quiet as compared to the technique most of us use? It strikes me that your approach could be similar to what they did when originally assembling the motors. (Not known to me)
I suspect your technique should work quite well, I wonder if it results in an alignment that is comparably quiet as compared to the technique most of us use? It strikes me that your approach could be similar to what they did when originally assembling the motors. (Not known to me)
Can someone please point me to the types of washers that are supposed to go under the idler wheel?
On a side note, what type of oil should be used in the idler noise reduction kits? I've used the same oil as the main bearing, but every few weeks when I check, the oil has blackened and needs to be cleaned. I'm also using the Audiosilente metal idler, which may or may not be contributing, as I'm not sure if the bushing in it is actually sintered bronze.
On a side note, what type of oil should be used in the idler noise reduction kits? I've used the same oil as the main bearing, but every few weeks when I check, the oil has blackened and needs to be cleaned. I'm also using the Audiosilente metal idler, which may or may not be contributing, as I'm not sure if the bushing in it is actually sintered bronze.
This sounds intriguing. If I understand correctly, one would start by determining stator clearance, then finding a material of the same thickness, something flexible enough to easily conform to the curve of the gap. Perhaps ideally each strip would be long enough to thread through the holes in both the top and bottom housing. You'd want something rugged enough not to tear and ideally something that wouldn't be likely to shed, since the stator can have some nasty edges. Assemble as is normally done, but with the 4 guides doing the alignment, move right to tightening all four bolts. You may still have some tweaking to do by adjusting the torque of the bolts, but certainly should get you much closer to "right" very quickly. Good idea.
idler wheel thrust
There is a translucent nylon thrust washer designed to take the load from the buttom face of the idler wheel bushing sleeve.
In the first photo you see the nylon thrust washer fitted over a slim phenolic spacer washer. It (the phenolic washer) is there as one of a few ways to adjust idler wheel height. but it is that nylon thrust washer that takes up the load.
Only thing is....there isn't much vertical loading. Mostly, the loading is horizontal, and the lower thrust washer and upper lock collar serve to limit vertical 'float' as the idler wheel performs its assigned task. That said, I would not ignore this feature.
Here's one measure I took to ensure that the thrust washer was adequately provided for:
The thrust washer pictured is one I turned on a lathe. Dimensions are duplicated from the original piece so that the washer grips the axle post snugly and does not want to free-spin. Material is Tekapeek.
I can't say that I noticed an improvement while using this thrust washer, compared to using the original, but it did not hurt anything.
re: audiosilente idler wheel. I've no exp with it..... can't comment.
re: oil. I'm using "Thorens Oil" on all of the rotating parts in my TD124 rebuilds. As specified in the Td124 service manual, the original formula has been superceded. A modern equivalent that I do use is Texaco R&O 46. A 20 wt turbine oil. (Not sold in auto parts stores, sorry) If you don't want to purchase the 5 gallon barrel of it, you can get another equivalent from the 3-In_One corporation called 3-in-One Electric motor oil.
Here's a link to the mfr's detail page.
3-IN-ONE Electric Motor Oil | SAE 20 Motor Oil Products
1st place to look is your local hardware store.
-Steve
There is a translucent nylon thrust washer designed to take the load from the buttom face of the idler wheel bushing sleeve.
In the first photo you see the nylon thrust washer fitted over a slim phenolic spacer washer. It (the phenolic washer) is there as one of a few ways to adjust idler wheel height. but it is that nylon thrust washer that takes up the load.
Only thing is....there isn't much vertical loading. Mostly, the loading is horizontal, and the lower thrust washer and upper lock collar serve to limit vertical 'float' as the idler wheel performs its assigned task. That said, I would not ignore this feature.
Here's one measure I took to ensure that the thrust washer was adequately provided for:
The thrust washer pictured is one I turned on a lathe. Dimensions are duplicated from the original piece so that the washer grips the axle post snugly and does not want to free-spin. Material is Tekapeek.
I can't say that I noticed an improvement while using this thrust washer, compared to using the original, but it did not hurt anything.
re: audiosilente idler wheel. I've no exp with it..... can't comment.
re: oil. I'm using "Thorens Oil" on all of the rotating parts in my TD124 rebuilds. As specified in the Td124 service manual, the original formula has been superceded. A modern equivalent that I do use is Texaco R&O 46. A 20 wt turbine oil. (Not sold in auto parts stores, sorry) If you don't want to purchase the 5 gallon barrel of it, you can get another equivalent from the 3-In_One corporation called 3-in-One Electric motor oil.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's a link to the mfr's detail page.
3-IN-ONE Electric Motor Oil | SAE 20 Motor Oil Products
1st place to look is your local hardware store.
-Steve
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There is a translucent nylon thrust washer designed to take the load from the buttom face of the idler wheel bushing sleeve.
In the first photo you see the nylon thrust washer fitted over a slim phenolic spacer washer. It (the phenolic washer) is there as one of a few ways to adjust idler wheel height. but it is that nylon thrust washer that takes up the load.
Only thing is....there isn't much vertical loading. Mostly, the loading is horizontal, and the lower thrust washer and upper lock collar serve to limit vertical 'float' as the idler wheel performs its assigned task. That said, I would not ignore this feature.
Here's one measure I took to ensure that the thrust washer was adequately provided for:
The thrust washer pictured is one I turned on a lathe. Dimensions are duplicated from the original piece so that the washer grips the axle post snugly and does not want to free-spin. Material is Tekapeek.
I can't say that I noticed an improvement while using this thrust washer, compared to using the original, but it did not hurt anything.
re: audiosilente idler wheel. I've no exp with it..... can't comment.
re: oil. I'm using "Thorens Oil" on all of the rotating parts in my TD124 rebuilds. As specified in the Td124 service manual, the original formula has been superceded. A modern equivalent that I do use is Texaco R&O 46. A 20 wt turbine oil. (Not sold in auto parts stores, sorry) If you don't want to purchase the 5 gallon barrel of it, you can get another equivalent from the 3-In_One corporation called 3-in-One Electric motor oil.
Here's a link to the mfr's detail page.
3-IN-ONE Electric Motor Oil | SAE 20 Motor Oil Products
1st place to look is your local hardware store.
-Steve
Thank you for all the info. I actually just ordered the 3 in 1 oil yesterday. Can you point me to where I can get the various different washers and what sizes I'd need?
Well, you should actually have the parts you need from when you took the TD124 apart.
Failing that I can't offer a source. I don't know of anyone that is punching thin phenolic washers sized for the TD124 right now.
-Steve
For some reason Schopper never sent them back to me after installing the noise reduction kit. And I no longer talk to Schopper...
Because as I mentioned the oil keeps turning black and I have to keep cleaning it. Not sure if it's the oil I'm using or the metal idler wheel's bushing or the plastic reduction kit itself.
So the question is 'why does the oil turn black'? Which begs the question; "what are those audiosilente bushings made from?"
Shall we go to Simone's website, look up the details on his aftermarket idler wheel and determine if he isn't using something like 'graphite' in those bushings?
Not saying it is, just suggesting that we get a full description of what you have.
for instance the 'noise reduction kit', what all is in that? I've never been around it.
-Steve
Here's the noise reduction kit: Schopper AG - Idler Wheel Noise Reduction Kit
Here's the idler: New Idler Wheel Thorens TD 124 O Ring TD124 TD135 TD184 TD224 Made in Italy | eBay
Here's the idler: New Idler Wheel Thorens TD 124 O Ring TD124 TD135 TD184 TD224 Made in Italy | eBay
I have Simone's idler wheel. I've talked to him extensively several times. It has a sintered bronze bushing that comes pre-oiled. I confirmed it was pre-oiled as I ran it as shipped and saw the oil film appear at the top of the bushing. He's a fan of a ceramic infused oil. Not sure if he has it formulated or has a supplier. Since in an earlier post you said you had added oil to it "the same oil used in the main bearing," you have mixed oil types unless you received the oil from Simone. I have a vial of that oil and if I recall correctly, it has a light gray appearance.
I have no oil from Simone, as the wheel was originally installed by Jim Campbell. I also only have the main bearing oil from Schopper, as they also didn't send me their special idler oil. I ordered the 3 in 1 to see if that makes a difference, but just wanted to see if anyone else may know what's causing the problem.