Hi petertub,
I completely agree with you on this.
Secrets start in the marketing department, or with the owner / engineer / designer. I have no use for them.
Often the secret is a good circuit design too. They aren't all "snake oil". It is unfortunate when the worst secrets (snake oil) paints other products as well.
Most commonly, when a product is fresh, you can't get service information. Once a number of years pass, some companies will release service manuals ... for a price. That's fair as long as that price is reasonable. Teac and Yamaha are reasonable with their manuals. A company like Counterpoint was unreasonable as they wanted $90 (higher before) for what is a terrible manual. Often all you can get is a schematic (Cyrus) even when you're doing warranty for them. I've had to sign NDAs for information, and that wasn't uncommon. I keep my word on those things.
-Chris
I completely agree with you on this.
Secrets start in the marketing department, or with the owner / engineer / designer. I have no use for them.
Often the secret is a good circuit design too. They aren't all "snake oil". It is unfortunate when the worst secrets (snake oil) paints other products as well.
Most commonly, when a product is fresh, you can't get service information. Once a number of years pass, some companies will release service manuals ... for a price. That's fair as long as that price is reasonable. Teac and Yamaha are reasonable with their manuals. A company like Counterpoint was unreasonable as they wanted $90 (higher before) for what is a terrible manual. Often all you can get is a schematic (Cyrus) even when you're doing warranty for them. I've had to sign NDAs for information, and that wasn't uncommon. I keep my word on those things.
-Chris
I don't have any direct experience of Zanden but the phone call you reported is the industry standard of brands that have the top end luxury market as target. According to my experience this is true for any technical product, not only in the audio world. On my professional career I was twice called by the personal assistant of extremely whealty people, they needed a fix for a malfunctioning product. On both cases they never asked for a repair. They wanted the fastest possible solution. A broken product is replaced with a new one, period. A repair is seen as a risky last ditch choice, because the repaired product may still have hidden flaws, and may get minor blemishes on the chassis due to the shipping or repair process. The cost is never a issue. 56k is pocket change on that market. I'm pretty sure that if you asked to buy the new model with a little discount in exchange for the broken one, you will have got it on the door the next morning. This is what this market wants. The only logical choice to fix a older/used product that comes from this market is to fix it yourself. At least your Zenden does not have critical parts covered with resin, there are products that are far less service friendly.
Hi pcan,
From the point of view of a manufacturer, this is an attractive solution. One that is irresponsible as repaired equipment is often better than one just manufactured. In the repair process, out of tolerance parts are replaced, then careful (and exact) adjustments are made so that the product almost always performs better than the average new one. Of course I'm talking about service performed by competent technicians.
One of our biggest problems on this planet is unidirectional manufacturing. Nothing ever goes back for service, just out and away to be forgotten. This releases the need for repair staff (and misses a good chance to have designs corrected), and parts inventory. It allows manufacturers to be completely irresponsible.
Most really high end manufacturers I have worked with actually do believe in after warranty service with an emphasis on a high quality service experience for a customer. Sometimes a customer will opt to purchase a new one, but that is their option, not one forced upon them. Customers absolutely do care that after warranty service and reliability is important. Maybe this is just a Canadian viewpoint?
-Chris
From the point of view of a manufacturer, this is an attractive solution. One that is irresponsible as repaired equipment is often better than one just manufactured. In the repair process, out of tolerance parts are replaced, then careful (and exact) adjustments are made so that the product almost always performs better than the average new one. Of course I'm talking about service performed by competent technicians.
One of our biggest problems on this planet is unidirectional manufacturing. Nothing ever goes back for service, just out and away to be forgotten. This releases the need for repair staff (and misses a good chance to have designs corrected), and parts inventory. It allows manufacturers to be completely irresponsible.
Most really high end manufacturers I have worked with actually do believe in after warranty service with an emphasis on a high quality service experience for a customer. Sometimes a customer will opt to purchase a new one, but that is their option, not one forced upon them. Customers absolutely do care that after warranty service and reliability is important. Maybe this is just a Canadian viewpoint?
-Chris
I would call it an environmentally and ethically responsible humanist viewpoint that transcends national borders?
Although the post-modern approach seems to be that if it’s not a car, house or child drop it in the trash and buy the next new thing. Sometimes even those aren’t viewed as worth the service bill. Repair is thought of as some kind of neolithic behavior.
This behavior is actively encouraged by manufacturers because it increases sales. Of course, we want it as well, as it works on the human tendency for instant gratification. Anyone care to say how many amps or tonearms or whatever they have? We are not so immune, even the most repair minded among us.
Very obvious example lately being smartphone manufacturers- the new phone pressure timeline is getting shorter and shorter.
I call it Disposal and Reacquisition Culture.
The rate at which this cycle speeds up is an academically accepted feature of late-stage capitalism.
The severity will be most obtusely visible among the more wealthy in metropolitan areas within first world cities, but the growth of the tendency toward this behavior is statistically factual across the developed world.
Although the post-modern approach seems to be that if it’s not a car, house or child drop it in the trash and buy the next new thing. Sometimes even those aren’t viewed as worth the service bill. Repair is thought of as some kind of neolithic behavior.
This behavior is actively encouraged by manufacturers because it increases sales. Of course, we want it as well, as it works on the human tendency for instant gratification. Anyone care to say how many amps or tonearms or whatever they have? We are not so immune, even the most repair minded among us.
Very obvious example lately being smartphone manufacturers- the new phone pressure timeline is getting shorter and shorter.
I call it Disposal and Reacquisition Culture.
The rate at which this cycle speeds up is an academically accepted feature of late-stage capitalism.
The severity will be most obtusely visible among the more wealthy in metropolitan areas within first world cities, but the growth of the tendency toward this behavior is statistically factual across the developed world.
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PS On the subject of whether total sticker price should reflect a longer service or maintenance contract- I find this to not generally be the case. Like the saying goes if you have to ask, you can’t afford it... the same can be applied to warranties.
Some refer to this as trying to punch above your weight (class) - a boxing analogy.
If you want a company to stand behind their product look for an established, foreign company with low visibility trying to break into sales in your country (think Hyundai in United States, for example).
Or, a very old, well-established luxury retailer with a service infrastructure that implemented their policies far in the past and appeal to old world sensibilities.
For example, Cartier repaired free of charge a an item bought ~ 3 decades ago (no proof of purchase or documents at all!) with a smile no problem. Walked into the store, handed it off, signed a paper or two, paid about $20 to cover the shipping cost and they called me in two weeks when it returned- not just repaired to be functional, but polished and so forth. Made it look like new.
If you want that kind of treatment, you should be looking at McIntosh or something along those lines. About a year ago I was able to purchase new shipping cartons for Mac products from the 60’s. Took one email, with same day shipment.
Zanden? Wishful thinking at best.
Don’t confuse high cost with luxury.
Some refer to this as trying to punch above your weight (class) - a boxing analogy.
If you want a company to stand behind their product look for an established, foreign company with low visibility trying to break into sales in your country (think Hyundai in United States, for example).
Or, a very old, well-established luxury retailer with a service infrastructure that implemented their policies far in the past and appeal to old world sensibilities.
For example, Cartier repaired free of charge a an item bought ~ 3 decades ago (no proof of purchase or documents at all!) with a smile no problem. Walked into the store, handed it off, signed a paper or two, paid about $20 to cover the shipping cost and they called me in two weeks when it returned- not just repaired to be functional, but polished and so forth. Made it look like new.
If you want that kind of treatment, you should be looking at McIntosh or something along those lines. About a year ago I was able to purchase new shipping cartons for Mac products from the 60’s. Took one email, with same day shipment.
Zanden? Wishful thinking at best.
Don’t confuse high cost with luxury.
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I have first hand evidence backed by hard cash revenue figures that consumers like the "irresponsible" service model most. Trash it and get another one for free if warranty is valid, or for a fee if warranty is expired. Solving the problem in the least amount of time and effort is the goal. The manufacturer does not have a big advantage from this behaviour, sadly it is mainly a end-user preference. The responsible "good after warranty service" model is thankfully still valued by several people - I count myself there - but it is a minority. Less environamental impact and better long term outcome, but there is a upfront cost to make the product serviceable and to prepare the repair manuals and spares. Repair does take some time, and involves more effort by the end user.
Item price tag is not a good indication of the service model choosen by the brand, as this thread shows. It depends on business choices, that are linked to the preferences and expectations of the target market. I would never ever buy a pre-owned Hi-Fi component that is targeting the upper luxury market. Chances are that the post-warranty service would be disappointing. If this is the case, the do-it-yourself approach to the repair may be a good choice.
Item price tag is not a good indication of the service model choosen by the brand, as this thread shows. It depends on business choices, that are linked to the preferences and expectations of the target market. I would never ever buy a pre-owned Hi-Fi component that is targeting the upper luxury market. Chances are that the post-warranty service would be disappointing. If this is the case, the do-it-yourself approach to the repair may be a good choice.
How much longer do you think we're going to have to put up with this crap?
As long as companies are allowed to profit from it.
I would like governments to institute a policy that demands a minimum build quality and to force service both under warranty and after warranty. This BS has gone on long enough. It's probably also the reason why we have ROHS to deal with.
-Chris
I would like governments to institute a policy that demands a minimum build quality and to force service both under warranty and after warranty. This BS has gone on long enough. It's probably also the reason why we have ROHS to deal with.
-Chris
It's not fair to place the burdon on the selling part only. The buyers have a larger
part of this, the fact that some idiot pays 50 k$ for something that not even
is repaiarble or supplied with proper documentation is totally the buyers fault.
As long as some clueless moron happily pays that kind of money on snakeoil,
that long will the problem persist.
That does not excuse the behavior some vendors have, but those vendors
cannot survive if they cannot fool customers.
Since the general public isn't aware of how the industry works, we can't expect them to make more informed decisions. Sometimes you have to protect people from themselves by removing certain choices from them. Or, allow junk to be sold, but there is a large tax placed on these poor decisions.
In any event, the choice of whether or not to supply documentation and parts is at the manufacturing level, and that these decisions are 100% monetary, we have to remove that incentive from them. Taxes or blocked market entry (I heavily favor a blocked market for those that don't play nice) would be the only answers that will work effectively.
-Chris
In any event, the choice of whether or not to supply documentation and parts is at the manufacturing level, and that these decisions are 100% monetary, we have to remove that incentive from them. Taxes or blocked market entry (I heavily favor a blocked market for those that don't play nice) would be the only answers that will work effectively.
-Chris
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
The snakeoil starts with the media - just pick up a h-fi magazine and look at the nonsense that goes on. Same goes in all walks of life - people believe what they read, especially in a glossy magazine with photos, charts and descriptions of 'palpable presence', 'the singer was in the room with me', 'you will feel wonderful if you have this amplifier', 'these speakers will enhance your social standing', 'these cables will guarantee you twice as much sex as you're having now with your crap cables' etc. But you can't protect everyone from themselves.
At the going rate? Until long after you and I are dead.
Chris’ suggestions are very rational and very reasonable, but we don’t live in a very rational or very reasonable world.
I place the likelihood of something like that happening in the near future at close to zero, despite a strong desire for it myself.
Essential reading / considered canonical on the subject matter:
https://sporastudios.org/mark/cours...modernism__cultural_logic_late_capitalism.pdf
By late stage capitalism I don’t mean it will be ending soon, or coming to some kind of revolutionary fireworks and restructuring.... at least from a view of time from within our own life cycles.
See Braudel’s “Longue duree”
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Support Survey?
As a community the only realistic good we can do is bring attention to this issue so why not carry out a survey of our members experience's and make the results public. This shall hopefully allow us to distinguish between the good and the bad and hopefully influence future purchases.
To prevent the survey descending into back biting I suggest it should be generally multi choice so how about agreeing on a concise set of questions.
Here's my first take, please feel free to edit.
1) Company
2) Did you deal with the dealer or manufactured – Dealer/Manufacturer
3) Year
4) Product Age
5) Did you consider long term support when purchasing?
6) Cost when new
7) Communication : No existent, Bad, Good, Excellent
8) Repair Offered: Yes/No
9) Repair Assistance Offered: Yes/No
10) Part exchange offered
11) Repair Costs: free, reasonable, OK, expensive
12) Would you buy from this company again.
13) Free text.
As a community the only realistic good we can do is bring attention to this issue so why not carry out a survey of our members experience's and make the results public. This shall hopefully allow us to distinguish between the good and the bad and hopefully influence future purchases.
To prevent the survey descending into back biting I suggest it should be generally multi choice so how about agreeing on a concise set of questions.
Here's my first take, please feel free to edit.
1) Company
2) Did you deal with the dealer or manufactured – Dealer/Manufacturer
3) Year
4) Product Age
5) Did you consider long term support when purchasing?
6) Cost when new
7) Communication : No existent, Bad, Good, Excellent
8) Repair Offered: Yes/No
9) Repair Assistance Offered: Yes/No
10) Part exchange offered
11) Repair Costs: free, reasonable, OK, expensive
12) Would you buy from this company again.
13) Free text.
If I were you, I would look at other dealers in Europe.
I see there is a dealer in the Hague, Italy, Serbia, Greece and even Turkey... I imagine at least one would be interested in acquiring your business.
If not maybe some clearer photographs of those diodes would help?
Does one channel still work? Any chance of posting some voltages off it?
I see there is a dealer in the Hague, Italy, Serbia, Greece and even Turkey... I imagine at least one would be interested in acquiring your business.
If not maybe some clearer photographs of those diodes would help?
Does one channel still work? Any chance of posting some voltages off it?
I'm not unhappy about that, don't want to be around to see how the wealth is dished out to the idle majority.
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