I'm also buying Apox 1 board. Since I jumped on this thread just recently and read only few last pages, I have a queastion. Did you consider phase switching? This is one feature that is really useful and easy to implement in a balanced preamp, just couple more relays😉
I think having volume knob acceleration for the Apox 1 (or 3) strikes me as a good idea. Much like your computer mouse. Move the mouse fast and each encoder pulse produces more cursor movement than when you move slow. I really would bet that would work well, be intuitive and, provide fine resolution that the 3 turns for full volume wouldn't.
If you don't provide the board with that code loaded in, please please please provide that functionality in a code version that I can load in myself. It could be a lot of work, as you now need to measure pulse frequency (or more likely period). If it's not a lot of work, I think part of the beauty of this kit would be the ability to chose the mode you want to use. Not necessarily built in, but available for flashing.
c'mon people, buy these kits, I don't want to have to build one myself. We need twenty brave souls who love relays.
Sheldon
If you don't provide the board with that code loaded in, please please please provide that functionality in a code version that I can load in myself. It could be a lot of work, as you now need to measure pulse frequency (or more likely period). If it's not a lot of work, I think part of the beauty of this kit would be the ability to chose the mode you want to use. Not necessarily built in, but available for flashing.
c'mon people, buy these kits, I don't want to have to build one myself. We need twenty brave souls who love relays.
Sheldon
Such feature is necessary IMO. I wouldn't like to turn the nob endlessly to get some gain.
1000 positions might seem impressive, but let's face it, nobody needs more than 80. It should be possible to get the full volume with no more than 3/4 turn if somebody does it fast.
1000 positions might seem impressive, but let's face it, nobody needs more than 80. It should be possible to get the full volume with no more than 3/4 turn if somebody does it fast.
I'm a bit of a newbie but I've been following this thread with a bit of excitment since it started.
This looks like a very exciting project, and I will most likely order one as soon as I clean up my credit card this month.
My question is this:
I can quite easily see using the input selector portion but will I need the APOX between my sources, a Bottlehead preamp and a Bottlehead amp? If I need the APOX, and I can see the convenience of it, which version should I use for that configuration?
I did some engineering and board layout in the distant past, and I have to tell you that it is very, very impressive at the speed of your design and layout. In my day, we laid out by hand, as anything automated was way out of most peoples finances!
I look forward to warming up the iron and smelling the sweet smell of solder once again!
This looks like a very exciting project, and I will most likely order one as soon as I clean up my credit card this month.
My question is this:
I can quite easily see using the input selector portion but will I need the APOX between my sources, a Bottlehead preamp and a Bottlehead amp? If I need the APOX, and I can see the convenience of it, which version should I use for that configuration?
I did some engineering and board layout in the distant past, and I have to tell you that it is very, very impressive at the speed of your design and layout. In my day, we laid out by hand, as anything automated was way out of most peoples finances!
I look forward to warming up the iron and smelling the sweet smell of solder once again!
You will need Apox if you require volume control feature. Just choose the one which is more convenient to you. One has more steps than the other, but doesn't offer the same impedance for various settings (which is not such a big deal).
Personally, I'm tempted to use it after the preamp and set the value to 500 ohm max., maybe. The series resistor would be in 50 ohm range. I have Elma based switcher like this in my DAC and it works fine.
Personally, I'm tempted to use it after the preamp and set the value to 500 ohm max., maybe. The series resistor would be in 50 ohm range. I have Elma based switcher like this in my DAC and it works fine.
Wow,
The project is gaining momentum by the minute. We really appreciate the fact that people are willing to jump on-board so early. We have kept the design completely open so that everyone knows exactly what they will be getting, and have encouraged feedback/suggestions.
In some ways, the APOX-1 is a more elegant solution. It was the "first" version, but was actually designed after the APOX-2. Based on some awesome feeback from Petter and others, we are really excited about this solution. It offers great functionality and is a cheaper solution. There are also less parts in the audio path.
The APOX-2 is for the following three cases:
1) Your system requires a contant impedence volume control.
Some tube preamps/amps may have problems with a varying impedences.
2) You want to use a TX102 type transformer instead of resistors.
3) You just like a series attenuator.
Peter, we tried to avoid adding more relays/parts in the signal path. There are a multitude of other options that we ruled out based on the need to add more relays. If you/others are really interested, I could whip up a very simple design for an external phase inversion. The system is quite modular/expandable, so adding additional functionality should be quite easy.
The new design tools make layout quite easy. As Petter has pointed out, the tools get you about 70% of the way there. You still need to optimize the layout. Also, since small microcontrollers are so cheap and flexible, we have used them quite liberally. This also greatly speeds up development since creating custom logic in hardware can take more effort than writing some software.
We also had the benefit of all of the great suggestions from this board. The newset version is so much simpler, but more elegant than we had originally designed.
Best Regards,
Dale (and Craig)
The project is gaining momentum by the minute. We really appreciate the fact that people are willing to jump on-board so early. We have kept the design completely open so that everyone knows exactly what they will be getting, and have encouraged feedback/suggestions.
In some ways, the APOX-1 is a more elegant solution. It was the "first" version, but was actually designed after the APOX-2. Based on some awesome feeback from Petter and others, we are really excited about this solution. It offers great functionality and is a cheaper solution. There are also less parts in the audio path.
The APOX-2 is for the following three cases:
1) Your system requires a contant impedence volume control.
Some tube preamps/amps may have problems with a varying impedences.
2) You want to use a TX102 type transformer instead of resistors.
3) You just like a series attenuator.
Peter, we tried to avoid adding more relays/parts in the signal path. There are a multitude of other options that we ruled out based on the need to add more relays. If you/others are really interested, I could whip up a very simple design for an external phase inversion. The system is quite modular/expandable, so adding additional functionality should be quite easy.
The new design tools make layout quite easy. As Petter has pointed out, the tools get you about 70% of the way there. You still need to optimize the layout. Also, since small microcontrollers are so cheap and flexible, we have used them quite liberally. This also greatly speeds up development since creating custom logic in hardware can take more effort than writing some software.
We also had the benefit of all of the great suggestions from this board. The newset version is so much simpler, but more elegant than we had originally designed.
Best Regards,
Dale (and Craig)
Our Whims
May I suggest that you consider making feature connectors which will enable a third party ecosystem to be created around your products? If done right, this should also increase sales .... and you could add stuff in software, perhaps even stuff that is contributed by others.
Features that MIGHT be of interest include:
1. Softstart delay
2. Remotely located hard mute/disconnect
3. Power control output (of other devices in system)
4. Gain between channel pairs
5. Allow mixing of Apox series boards (for example a couple of 1's and a few 3's)
6. Voltage monitoring (go/nogo coupled to mute relays etc.)
7. Temperature monitoring and remote temperature monitoring.
8. Gains stages!!!!!
9. Remote digital input switching
10. Digital stages to boot ....
In order to enable an ecosystem it becomes necessary to enable the channel by providing some standards ranging from mechanical through electrical through software.
An article or review in AudioXpress, SoundPractices etc., Sterophile ....
It might also be necessary to enable the channel by proving a centralized place for people to post their offerings be they free or commercial. That might include you as the store front with nominal markup on pricing 🙂
Petter
May I suggest that you consider making feature connectors which will enable a third party ecosystem to be created around your products? If done right, this should also increase sales .... and you could add stuff in software, perhaps even stuff that is contributed by others.
Features that MIGHT be of interest include:
1. Softstart delay
2. Remotely located hard mute/disconnect
3. Power control output (of other devices in system)
4. Gain between channel pairs
5. Allow mixing of Apox series boards (for example a couple of 1's and a few 3's)
6. Voltage monitoring (go/nogo coupled to mute relays etc.)
7. Temperature monitoring and remote temperature monitoring.
8. Gains stages!!!!!
9. Remote digital input switching
10. Digital stages to boot ....
In order to enable an ecosystem it becomes necessary to enable the channel by providing some standards ranging from mechanical through electrical through software.
An article or review in AudioXpress, SoundPractices etc., Sterophile ....
It might also be necessary to enable the channel by proving a centralized place for people to post their offerings be they free or commercial. That might include you as the store front with nominal markup on pricing 🙂
Petter
I cannot help but laugh. To think that this all started with a universal remote controlling some relays....
Based on a lesson that I learned from Hugh Dean (AKSA), future developments should be discussed in broad terms, as they can have an adverse effect on current offerings...
Suffice it to realize that we will not stop development anytime soon. The "first" generation has been frozen, but who knows what might be available in the future...
Our goal is to provide an extremely high audiophile bang for your money. (I almost said buck, but maybe that's too usa)
Dale
P.S. We plan on starting a FAQ section on our web site for suggestions, building help, operation help, etc...
Of course we will post the latest schematics and source code!
Based on a lesson that I learned from Hugh Dean (AKSA), future developments should be discussed in broad terms, as they can have an adverse effect on current offerings...
Suffice it to realize that we will not stop development anytime soon. The "first" generation has been frozen, but who knows what might be available in the future...
Our goal is to provide an extremely high audiophile bang for your money. (I almost said buck, but maybe that's too usa)
Dale
P.S. We plan on starting a FAQ section on our web site for suggestions, building help, operation help, etc...
Of course we will post the latest schematics and source code!
harvardian said:
It is fine, as I understand not everybody would need that feature, but it would be nice to have the output to additional relays that might control that.
You could do that with ...
Peter,
The balanced/unbalanced output could be used to do what you are asking if you are willing to forgo that feature.
I agree however that in principle features could be added (such as a feature connector). I had a Canon Camera once that had "custom functions" which enabled all kinds of stuff to be done. This was somewhat painful to use, but very cool if you took the time to learn the possibilities.
Petter
Peter,
The balanced/unbalanced output could be used to do what you are asking if you are willing to forgo that feature.
I agree however that in principle features could be added (such as a feature connector). I had a Canon Camera once that had "custom functions" which enabled all kinds of stuff to be done. This was somewhat painful to use, but very cool if you took the time to learn the possibilities.
Petter
I like the idea of the dipchip forum/gallery. I'll provide lots of pictures of my pre-amp/ active crossover/EQ for my Electrostatic speakers for you when I've integrated your modules.
So are the existing orders going to get parts or are they contingent on getting twenty orders (as stated previously)?
There's a lot of possibilities that your data-buss and modular board concept. I'm assuming that your receiver logic can handle the other signals from the remote (other than volume, mute, etc.). Is so, you could add a transmitter module with appropriate command translation so you could run your CD player, vcr, dvd, etc all from the same remote without "learning" With the microprocessor control, there's X10 possibilities as well. But that is starting to get silly.
Sheldon
So are the existing orders going to get parts or are they contingent on getting twenty orders (as stated previously)?
There's a lot of possibilities that your data-buss and modular board concept. I'm assuming that your receiver logic can handle the other signals from the remote (other than volume, mute, etc.). Is so, you could add a transmitter module with appropriate command translation so you could run your CD player, vcr, dvd, etc all from the same remote without "learning" With the microprocessor control, there's X10 possibilities as well. But that is starting to get silly.
Sheldon
Dipchip forum!
You have my vote.
Can you please post the dimensions of Apox-1 board with location of mounting holes + in/out signal positions? I need to plan cabinet + piggyback gain stages 🙂
If you do decide to open up the field, you might want to consider having a region in the software that could be customizable without messing with DipChip functions.
Ecosystem!
Petter
You have my vote.
Can you please post the dimensions of Apox-1 board with location of mounting holes + in/out signal positions? I need to plan cabinet + piggyback gain stages 🙂
If you do decide to open up the field, you might want to consider having a region in the software that could be customizable without messing with DipChip functions.
Ecosystem!
Petter
Hi Sheldon,
Glad you asked the question.
We are ordering ALL PARTS NOW. We now have 8 confirmed orders. Today, I ordered:
25 IR1 boards
40 IS1 boards
20 APOX1
20 APOX2 (Optimistic)
500 Omron Relays (IS1)
500 COTO Relays (APOX)
Lots of PIC Microcontrollers
Encoders
I will start ordering the cheaper parts tomorrow.
> $3500 worth so far.
So, forget about the need for twenty pre-orders 😱
For other stuff,
Sure, we can do anything😉
Dale
Glad you asked the question.
We are ordering ALL PARTS NOW. We now have 8 confirmed orders. Today, I ordered:
25 IR1 boards
40 IS1 boards
20 APOX1
20 APOX2 (Optimistic)
500 Omron Relays (IS1)
500 COTO Relays (APOX)
Lots of PIC Microcontrollers
Encoders
I will start ordering the cheaper parts tomorrow.
> $3500 worth so far.
So, forget about the need for twenty pre-orders 😱
For other stuff,
Sure, we can do anything😉
Dale
Cool! I hope you get enough orders to cover your parts costs. (c'mon you DIY wimps, buy early, buy often)
Any ETA for the kits? I'm getting excited to get my project going.
Sheldon
Any ETA for the kits? I'm getting excited to get my project going.
Sheldon
The boards were ordered with a two week spin. They are scheduled to ship out 4/28-4/29.
Some parts are on back order until 5/1 (hopefully not later)
I would expect to be able to ship the first units by 5/8
Sounds far off, but we'll come up with something to keep people interested.
I will post board specs (sizes, etc...) later tonight. First, I have to play plumber. My wife managed to block up our spetic system with feminine products (they do say don not flush!). What a disaster. To top it off, it took her all day to realize that she couldn't use ANY drain. She kept backing it up more and dumping waste all over our newly redone basement all day long.
YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We will just sell Craig's next baby if we run short on cash.
Some parts are on back order until 5/1 (hopefully not later)
I would expect to be able to ship the first units by 5/8
Sounds far off, but we'll come up with something to keep people interested.
I will post board specs (sizes, etc...) later tonight. First, I have to play plumber. My wife managed to block up our spetic system with feminine products (they do say don not flush!). What a disaster. To top it off, it took her all day to realize that she couldn't use ANY drain. She kept backing it up more and dumping waste all over our newly redone basement all day long.
YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We will just sell Craig's next baby if we run short on cash.
Dale,
what is the difference between the Coto and the Omron relays? Why did you not choose the same type for all the boards? They aren't pin compatible, are they?
--
Brian
what is the difference between the Coto and the Omron relays? Why did you not choose the same type for all the boards? They aren't pin compatible, are they?
--
Brian
relays
BrianGT,
The COTO's are DPST (double pole single throw)
the omrons are DPDT (double pole double throw)
-Craig Beiferman
BrianGT,
The COTO's are DPST (double pole single throw)
the omrons are DPDT (double pole double throw)
-Craig Beiferman
Brian,
Basically, we looked for relays that offered very high performance at a reasonable price.
For the input select board, we needed "2 form C" relays. These are VERY expensive in reed style. The Omrons have very good specs and are rated for low signal (current) applications. They are also a sealed design. The lowest cost reed version of a 2formC was about $6 ea vs < $2 ea.
For the volume boards, we needed a 2formA relay. The Coto 8L02 use the standard 14 -DIP package. The Coto relays feature very good resistance, life, and have an electrostatic shield to mitigate capacitive coupling. I am pricing out alternatives such as the Pickering, Meder, and possibly some mercury wetted types. I do feel that the specs on the Coto's seem "good enough". I expect that the "better" relays will cost $5-$10 ea.
The cost would be about $88.00 more for the pair of IS1 boards.
The APOX-1 would be about $60 more.
Can anyone justify the price differences?
Dale
Basically, we looked for relays that offered very high performance at a reasonable price.
For the input select board, we needed "2 form C" relays. These are VERY expensive in reed style. The Omrons have very good specs and are rated for low signal (current) applications. They are also a sealed design. The lowest cost reed version of a 2formC was about $6 ea vs < $2 ea.
For the volume boards, we needed a 2formA relay. The Coto 8L02 use the standard 14 -DIP package. The Coto relays feature very good resistance, life, and have an electrostatic shield to mitigate capacitive coupling. I am pricing out alternatives such as the Pickering, Meder, and possibly some mercury wetted types. I do feel that the specs on the Coto's seem "good enough". I expect that the "better" relays will cost $5-$10 ea.
The cost would be about $88.00 more for the pair of IS1 boards.
The APOX-1 would be about $60 more.
Can anyone justify the price differences?
Dale
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