Bricolo said:
It is, and there are hundreds of others on the net -- way too many for us to choose a project for you -- you need to go look and bring back some ideas of what appeals to you. You have been invited to go look, none of us really want to go looking for you. Here is a subset of projects i have in my bookmarks to get you started, i know there are a lot of good ones not listed here.
dave
http://melhuish.org/audio/diy.htm
http://www.ameritech.net/users/kagato/prestige.htm
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/projects/index.html
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/rstamey/toppage2.htm
http://www.rainbow-akron.com/james/estie1.html
http://users.pandora.be/airborne/speakers.html
http://www.fys.uio.no/~magnushj/Spring/
http://kahuna.sdsu.edu/~tucker/diyaudio/diyaudio.html
http://www.linkline.com/personal/phorn/audio/
http://www.blackdahlia.com/do_poly.htm
http://philsaudio.stryke.com/
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1511/2way101.htm
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/
http://www.surfnetusa.com/sho/
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~jpvaisan/hifi.html
http://www.acc.umu.se/~sagge/audio/supreme/
http://Gamma.nic.fi/~ajaaskel/
http://home.att.net/~joemacjr/diyproject/loudspeaker.html
http://www.lungster.com/l/speakers/speak.html
Bricolo,
Continuing the hunt for good sensitive diy speakers here are ideas.
Firstly.....................
The issue issue of low powered SET amps and suitable drivers has been already debated.
My view is that people like the little SE's for their Pure Sound and simplicity, but without care these qualities are eroded by the limitations of the average full range hi sensitivity speakers.
I while back when I was a member of the Melbourne Audio Club we regularly had visits from the Lower Club and the odd Horn diy speaker from a member. These demos got less than favourable responses because of the engibneeering limitations of a full range single cone hi sensitivity speakers.
Two options here will offer easy executional excellence for diy, the third is more advanced but offers a degree of creativity.
1. If size is not too much of an issue a second hand Tannoy (a two way) is a good entry point for the small SE owner and will offer reasonable accuracy and dynamic range. This is a single driver so the diy aspect is the box only, its easy and wll impress even your nexr door neighbours.
2. From there a MTM tower with two large (or even one) 12 to 15 inch woofers (Audax, Altec, JBL, Tad, P Audio for example) and say a nice sensitive mid driver to match is better.
The JBL bi radial black bum horn model 2344 with a JBL 2425/26 driver with titanium diapram is probably the best and most accessable combination for the diy user. I use this device and get outstanding results. The 2344 was used JBL in their 4430/4435 studio monitor which were the mainstream monitor for the bulk large studios in the eighties.
The 2344 has a uniform power response off axis and a symetrical dispersion pattern 100 x 100 degree. The driver requires passive EQ for a flat amplitude response (which is easy) and offers +- 2db envelop from 1 K hz to 16.5 Khz with no horn colouration what so ever. If you wish I cam email the design pdf.
They are not too expensive and can be readily found on E bay and specialist vintage audio pages. The older Altec and JBL horns are not suitable for home hifi.
3. From there you can evolve your speaker into a bi amp affair and add a nice hi sensitivity cone midrange to cover the 200 - 1200 hz range, further improving performance as per the next image. Again Audax JBL and other made such drivers. This is my current speaker system will will run happily on 7 WATT SE amp, but I am using the Aleph 2 at the moment in passive xover mode.
When Nelson releases the Pass diy crossover I will look at active operation, a zen or X Aleph on the top end perhaps
Ian
Continuing the hunt for good sensitive diy speakers here are ideas.
Firstly.....................
The issue issue of low powered SET amps and suitable drivers has been already debated.
My view is that people like the little SE's for their Pure Sound and simplicity, but without care these qualities are eroded by the limitations of the average full range hi sensitivity speakers.
I while back when I was a member of the Melbourne Audio Club we regularly had visits from the Lower Club and the odd Horn diy speaker from a member. These demos got less than favourable responses because of the engibneeering limitations of a full range single cone hi sensitivity speakers.
Two options here will offer easy executional excellence for diy, the third is more advanced but offers a degree of creativity.
1. If size is not too much of an issue a second hand Tannoy (a two way) is a good entry point for the small SE owner and will offer reasonable accuracy and dynamic range. This is a single driver so the diy aspect is the box only, its easy and wll impress even your nexr door neighbours.
2. From there a MTM tower with two large (or even one) 12 to 15 inch woofers (Audax, Altec, JBL, Tad, P Audio for example) and say a nice sensitive mid driver to match is better.
The JBL bi radial black bum horn model 2344 with a JBL 2425/26 driver with titanium diapram is probably the best and most accessable combination for the diy user. I use this device and get outstanding results. The 2344 was used JBL in their 4430/4435 studio monitor which were the mainstream monitor for the bulk large studios in the eighties.
The 2344 has a uniform power response off axis and a symetrical dispersion pattern 100 x 100 degree. The driver requires passive EQ for a flat amplitude response (which is easy) and offers +- 2db envelop from 1 K hz to 16.5 Khz with no horn colouration what so ever. If you wish I cam email the design pdf.
They are not too expensive and can be readily found on E bay and specialist vintage audio pages. The older Altec and JBL horns are not suitable for home hifi.
3. From there you can evolve your speaker into a bi amp affair and add a nice hi sensitivity cone midrange to cover the 200 - 1200 hz range, further improving performance as per the next image. Again Audax JBL and other made such drivers. This is my current speaker system will will run happily on 7 WATT SE amp, but I am using the Aleph 2 at the moment in passive xover mode.
When Nelson releases the Pass diy crossover I will look at active operation, a zen or X Aleph on the top end perhaps
Ian
Attachments
Oh,
Nearly forgot, this link has a nice diy speaker forum for diy hi sensitivity projects.
http://www.audioheritage.org/
regards
Ian
I must wonder off now, its lunchtime and I need something a counter act the effects of my home brew last night.
cheers
Ian
Nearly forgot, this link has a nice diy speaker forum for diy hi sensitivity projects.
http://www.audioheritage.org/
regards
Ian
I must wonder off now, its lunchtime and I need something a counter act the effects of my home brew last night.
cheers
Ian
macka, I don't want a horn!
A MTM would be good, a good MT also
but after all the posts I've read, I think I'll have to build an aleph, rather than a SOZ.
Would maybe heat less, be more powerfull, sound a little less good,
but can drive much more speakers, and let me use better speakers
A MTM would be good, a good MT also
but after all the posts I've read, I think I'll have to build an aleph, rather than a SOZ.
Would maybe heat less, be more powerfull, sound a little less good,
but can drive much more speakers, and let me use better speakers
Nelson Pass said:
Hi Nelson,
No mention of ATC, I see, but their 3" dome mid driver (SM75-150S) @94dB sensitivity is only just short of your 'goal', and really is a super driver.
Not 'full-range', but some people consider the ATC mid drivers to be the finest mids in the world, although they are, unfortunately, also very costly.
I know you said "partial list" but wondered if you have looked at any of these?
Regards,
I do have a pair of the ATC's, and they are indeed highly
regarded by many. I thought they were good, but I have
been told that they were discontinued.
regarded by many. I thought they were good, but I have
been told that they were discontinued.
The Dynaudio D76 and the more advance Esotar version would rank closely with the ACT. Unfortunately Dynaudio has discontinued marketing of it raw drivers but you can still find a few outlets with remaining stock.
The ACT is a very sweet sounding mid, but as Nelson states it is very expensive and not perhaps good value overall compared to some of the new alternatives. The reason for high cost is high manufacturing tolerances and a very large magnet to boost the otherwise lagging sensitivity.
Its main claim to fame is high power handling/output with high excursion capability for pro monitoring. As a diy cause though this is not a key requirement an there are most likely other brands with similar levels of fidelity.
Has any one considered the the Morel mid dome or the Accuton/Theil & Partner range of hard dome ceramic drivers?
I note also on the diy speaker building page the Lynn Olsen has used the Eton mid driver, the Seas dome tweeters and the Audax laminiates ina high end higher sensitivity system.
regards
Ian
The ACT is a very sweet sounding mid, but as Nelson states it is very expensive and not perhaps good value overall compared to some of the new alternatives. The reason for high cost is high manufacturing tolerances and a very large magnet to boost the otherwise lagging sensitivity.
Its main claim to fame is high power handling/output with high excursion capability for pro monitoring. As a diy cause though this is not a key requirement an there are most likely other brands with similar levels of fidelity.
Has any one considered the the Morel mid dome or the Accuton/Theil & Partner range of hard dome ceramic drivers?
I note also on the diy speaker building page the Lynn Olsen has used the Eton mid driver, the Seas dome tweeters and the Audax laminiates ina high end higher sensitivity system.
regards
Ian
macka said:
Hi,
I don't wish to seem argumentative, but to avoid anyone who is unfamiliar with these *ATCs* (which is what I assume you meant in your post, not ACTs!) being put off by what I consider to be some inaccurate comments on them, I would say the following.
I have had some 15 years of experience with these wonderful sounding mid-range units, and I have never come across any other mid-range driver which is overall as enjoyable to listen to.
They are quite unique in the character of their sound, and if used with a suitable xover, sound closer to say electrostatics (with absolutely no edginess nor hard sound at any frequency, and almost zero colouration, which cannot be said about the cone drivers I have tried), than any of the very many other mid drivers I have experimented with.
As you have pointed out, their quality of construction is second to none, and they are, if anything, over-engineered for most peoples' requirements, which I don't happen to see as being any disadvantage.
I simply do not understand your apparently derogatory comment about "boost their otherwise lagging sensitivity" which is a totally inappropriate remark here, or it should apply to *all* other reasonably efficient drivers, alike.
They are simply (extremely well) made with a very substantial magnet to ensure that they are quite sensitive. If that is to be considered any kind of disadvantage, as is implied, the less sensitive version SM75-150 (@91dB, and which, apart from a smaller magnet, is otherwise identical) is also available.
I currently have some of these ATC mid units in my own system, and I also have a pair of speakers with Dynaudio units in them, and they don't come anywhere near, performancewise!
Also, to say that "there are most likely other brands with similar levels of fidelity", I for one would very much appreciate you telling me which some of these brands, and in particular, the specific models are, so that I may try them out for myself.
I have been trying for some years to find an overall better sounding driver than the ATCs, and so far, I have failed, dismally!
Finally, I already said that they were expensive units, but so are several of those which featured in Nelson's list, and I still consider (like Nelson appears to with "the supremely expensive TADs", as he described them) that they are among the few very best drivers available.
Incidentally, apart from being a satisfied user, I have no connection with ATC, but I feel that any comments on their speakers should be factual and fair, and based on actual experience of these drivers in use.
Regards,
Uwwch,
Shot and wounded,
Bob,
To be fair I was generalising is bit and did not mean to provok fire from any owner of the ATC, they are lovely, I just wanted to put everthing is perspective, that was all really.
The last system I heard the ATC's on I recall it was a Cary SE 25 watt Valve monster, it was a pleasant enough experience.
My remarks about the product benefits and positioning are essentially quoted from an ATC brochure, the target market being pro audio monitoring, not HiFI as such.
I realise that some brands have RELIGOUS following and people get offended quite easily, lets just kept the ball on the court hey Bob.
The thread originally started by refering to hi sensitivity speakers for the Zen, and my remark was in that context.
Mid range drivers range in sensitivity from the mid 80's to the high 90's or more, I do not call 90 -94 particularly high sensitivity, a horn mid in a tratrix horn can go even higher, and for Altecs & Jbl 105 dba is the norm.
There are two versions of the ATC dome as I recall, the standard one is about 90 - 91 db sensitive, the bigger one called the super dome is about 94 db, it sports a 9 kg magnet. So if you need 9Kg to get to boost to 94 dba I think my remark is justified.
My mid while not dome, but 9 inch paper cone has a 4 kg magnet and clocks nearly 99 dba over the same band. It is a JBL 2122, also well regarded as a pure pistion range cone mid.
On a level playing field a British firm call Reflection Arts published an article in Studio Sound ( a pro journal circ 1988) regarding the design of studio monitors,
They quote "The midrange is the most critical and most contentious area of a monitor design. The choice of drivers mainly falls between cones, domes and compression horns. Cones and domes are more generally considered to produce softer, less harsh sound than compression horns which, strictly speaking, are two seperate components- the driver and the flare. When very high output levels are required, the more efficient compression horns are capable of much greater acoustic output.
Thus, at high levels, they may actually be sweeter than a hard pushed cone or dome driver. To achieve good high frequencies and fast transients, the moving mass of a midrange driver must be kept rigid and light. As increase in size means increase in weight for a given material, cone and dome midrange units cannot just be made larger in order to be louder. It is also difficult for a small mass to dissipate the heat which is generated in the unit at high output levels. "
So for those who do not understand the physics...there it is.
In the last edition of UK HI FI World and other Hi FI mags I saw dozens of hi end branded speakers like Wilson using Scan, Seas and lesser known brands of drivers that are regarded as the hi of hi end. They obvious have great midrange drivers. The Proac brand also uses ATC drivers in some models.
It is therefore reasonable to assume then that not only ATC make great midrange drivers.
I trust I have been fairly factual on this topic and apologise for any earlier incorrect assertions.
Ian
Shot and wounded,
Bob,
To be fair I was generalising is bit and did not mean to provok fire from any owner of the ATC, they are lovely, I just wanted to put everthing is perspective, that was all really.
The last system I heard the ATC's on I recall it was a Cary SE 25 watt Valve monster, it was a pleasant enough experience.
My remarks about the product benefits and positioning are essentially quoted from an ATC brochure, the target market being pro audio monitoring, not HiFI as such.
I realise that some brands have RELIGOUS following and people get offended quite easily, lets just kept the ball on the court hey Bob.
The thread originally started by refering to hi sensitivity speakers for the Zen, and my remark was in that context.
Mid range drivers range in sensitivity from the mid 80's to the high 90's or more, I do not call 90 -94 particularly high sensitivity, a horn mid in a tratrix horn can go even higher, and for Altecs & Jbl 105 dba is the norm.
There are two versions of the ATC dome as I recall, the standard one is about 90 - 91 db sensitive, the bigger one called the super dome is about 94 db, it sports a 9 kg magnet. So if you need 9Kg to get to boost to 94 dba I think my remark is justified.
My mid while not dome, but 9 inch paper cone has a 4 kg magnet and clocks nearly 99 dba over the same band. It is a JBL 2122, also well regarded as a pure pistion range cone mid.
On a level playing field a British firm call Reflection Arts published an article in Studio Sound ( a pro journal circ 1988) regarding the design of studio monitors,
They quote "The midrange is the most critical and most contentious area of a monitor design. The choice of drivers mainly falls between cones, domes and compression horns. Cones and domes are more generally considered to produce softer, less harsh sound than compression horns which, strictly speaking, are two seperate components- the driver and the flare. When very high output levels are required, the more efficient compression horns are capable of much greater acoustic output.
Thus, at high levels, they may actually be sweeter than a hard pushed cone or dome driver. To achieve good high frequencies and fast transients, the moving mass of a midrange driver must be kept rigid and light. As increase in size means increase in weight for a given material, cone and dome midrange units cannot just be made larger in order to be louder. It is also difficult for a small mass to dissipate the heat which is generated in the unit at high output levels. "
So for those who do not understand the physics...there it is.
In the last edition of UK HI FI World and other Hi FI mags I saw dozens of hi end branded speakers like Wilson using Scan, Seas and lesser known brands of drivers that are regarded as the hi of hi end. They obvious have great midrange drivers. The Proac brand also uses ATC drivers in some models.
It is therefore reasonable to assume then that not only ATC make great midrange drivers.
I trust I have been fairly factual on this topic and apologise for any earlier incorrect assertions.
Ian
This might be true in the absolute sense, but particularly inmacka said:
the studio we are talking about levels which will damage
your hearing. If your hearing is already gone, perhaps the
horns will definitely enjoy an advantage....
BTW, the new Cabasse mid horn and tweeter are very
interesting sounding, and are in the 110 dB range, as I
recall. Unfortunately they were sufficiently expensive that
I had to return them, alas.
So many drivers, and hardly enough time.
Oh,
Too right but at 110 dba + , low distortion breakup (cone cry is the correct term) is probably also important for less hearing impairment anyways, not to mention driver reliability.
The argument could also be applied and considered for lower powers and one would expect a proportional drop in distortion levels, at least for normal paper cone drivers were X Mas still has a bearing on distortion if used for lower midrange from 200 to 300hz or so, as per the origin of the ATC super dome.
Hence the idea of larger paper cones up to 10 inches for mids over 200 - 1200hz where dispersion not interrupted, such that they move less for a given output and if light enough will have very good transient behaviour.
Then its over to a smaller device say a dome mid or wide range tweeter with a low resonance, or a "nice" horn.
Perhaps this is why La Scalas have a cult following, being horn loaded they would exhibit low distortion and perhaps this is why they will show up an irritable amp. Plus you don't need a big amp.
I recall Mr Pass has a set of these for evaluation in the factory
Ian
Too right but at 110 dba + , low distortion breakup (cone cry is the correct term) is probably also important for less hearing impairment anyways, not to mention driver reliability.
The argument could also be applied and considered for lower powers and one would expect a proportional drop in distortion levels, at least for normal paper cone drivers were X Mas still has a bearing on distortion if used for lower midrange from 200 to 300hz or so, as per the origin of the ATC super dome.
Hence the idea of larger paper cones up to 10 inches for mids over 200 - 1200hz where dispersion not interrupted, such that they move less for a given output and if light enough will have very good transient behaviour.
Then its over to a smaller device say a dome mid or wide range tweeter with a low resonance, or a "nice" horn.
Perhaps this is why La Scalas have a cult following, being horn loaded they would exhibit low distortion and perhaps this is why they will show up an irritable amp. Plus you don't need a big amp.
I recall Mr Pass has a set of these for evaluation in the factory
Ian
morel & accuton
I have some expirience with accutons & morel. Accutons are excellent sounding drivers, but are rather low efficient - around 87dB/w/m. I built 2-way with c95 17cm midbass and c12 tweeter that is really superb sounding speaker, but regarding it's low snesitivity it wouldn't go well with low powered Zen (it doesn't work well with my 8W 300B so...).
Morel MDM55 (dome midrange) is very good - smooth and easy to use. It has good sensitivity - ca. 90-91dB - and can be used from 800-900Hz to 5kHz. I had it in a 3-way with dynaudio tweeter and bass and that was very smoot and silky sounding speaker (but because of bass driver low efficient).
However - I'm now listening to big vintage Tannoys (HPD385 in 180lit enclosures) which sound just wonderfull even with low powered 300B SETs as with some Gainclones or (better) with mini (15W) Alephs.
Vuki
I have some expirience with accutons & morel. Accutons are excellent sounding drivers, but are rather low efficient - around 87dB/w/m. I built 2-way with c95 17cm midbass and c12 tweeter that is really superb sounding speaker, but regarding it's low snesitivity it wouldn't go well with low powered Zen (it doesn't work well with my 8W 300B so...).
Morel MDM55 (dome midrange) is very good - smooth and easy to use. It has good sensitivity - ca. 90-91dB - and can be used from 800-900Hz to 5kHz. I had it in a 3-way with dynaudio tweeter and bass and that was very smoot and silky sounding speaker (but because of bass driver low efficient).
However - I'm now listening to big vintage Tannoys (HPD385 in 180lit enclosures) which sound just wonderfull even with low powered 300B SETs as with some Gainclones or (better) with mini (15W) Alephs.
Vuki
Vuki,
I appreciate that you have experiemented and gained some experience with using diffierent drivers.
Nice to hear the Tannoys are a good match with your SET amps.
The HPD385s were one of the best of the dual concentric series in the Tannoy range. Can you send us a picture?
Perhaps the Accuton and Morel driver are better suited to the larger more powerful Aleph and Aleph X amps.
Cheers
Ian
I appreciate that you have experiemented and gained some experience with using diffierent drivers.
Nice to hear the Tannoys are a good match with your SET amps.
The HPD385s were one of the best of the dual concentric series in the Tannoy range. Can you send us a picture?
Perhaps the Accuton and Morel driver are better suited to the larger more powerful Aleph and Aleph X amps.
Cheers
Ian
Nelson Pass said:
Hi Nelson,
Not sure if its still of any interest to you now, but some others may like to know, anyway, that I spoke to ATC today, about these drivers.
They confirmed that the SM75-150S (94dB) dome mid drivers I referred to are still available and in production, and were puzzled as where this incorrect info emanated from.
Regards,
Thanks for the correction. These were mounted up with
some Esotars, and perhaps the comment I heard was
directed at them.
Correction: no, apparently those are still available too.
some Esotars, and perhaps the comment I heard was
directed at them.
Correction: no, apparently those are still available too.
ATC SM75s
Just for your information...'
SM75-150S GBP 290......
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ATC_Drive_Units_7.html
Just for your information...'
SM75-150S GBP 290......
https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_ATC_Drive_Units_7.html
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