If one is building a fully active three way with dsp, is ARTA needed? (Without a passive crossover). Wondering if I may have missed something.
Hi Idarieut. The DSP is only being used for initial tuning purposes. Once I am happy with the sound, my cousin will try and replicate the necessary x-over with an active version to remove the need for DSP. I must admit that whilst I love the flexibility of DSP, the two I have heard so far didn't sound the best. They were ok but seemed to make the treble sound a bit hard edged, no matter what speaker it was driving. I guess this is a topic for a different thread!
Thanks for the further recommendations for mic's. I have taken a look at the Dayton EMM-6 mic and it looks like it will cost around £90 in the UK (once you factor in import duty etc). Is it still a good mic for this price or would there be better alternatives at that price? I don't mind spending that if it's offers good value for money.
Thanks for the further recommendations for mic's. I have taken a look at the Dayton EMM-6 mic and it looks like it will cost around £90 in the UK (once you factor in import duty etc). Is it still a good mic for this price or would there be better alternatives at that price? I don't mind spending that if it's offers good value for money.
The emm-6 is good enough for everything but very accurate non-linear distortion testing near-field. The real bonus is that you can get it relatively cheap with a good calibration curve and sensitivity. (..I've got 2 of the emm-6 from Dayton/Parts Express that I used at one time with Dayton's own not-so-good calibration file.)
A better inexpensive mic. would be the Line Audio OM-1, but then you'd need to *send it to good source for a better calibration curve and sensitivity measurement. (..and you could send the OM-1 to Cross Spectrum for that calibration file.)
*or use a known/calibrated source mic. (yes, another mic.) to generate your own calibration file for the OM-1.
A better inexpensive mic. would be the Line Audio OM-1, but then you'd need to *send it to good source for a better calibration curve and sensitivity measurement. (..and you could send the OM-1 to Cross Spectrum for that calibration file.)
*or use a known/calibrated source mic. (yes, another mic.) to generate your own calibration file for the OM-1.
Hi Scott
I did find a link for the EMM-6 on amazon.co.uk, but it doesn't differentiate between the basic & the premium version? I'm not sure what the difference is? (apart from premium is better!😉 😀)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dayton-EMM-6-Electret-Measurement-Microphone/dp/B002KI8X40
Would this be a suitable version of this mic or is it missing something?
Also A4eaudio posted the following which seems to be a sensible shopping list:
Purchase:
1) Calibrated xlr microphone - Dayton EMM-6 is a good bargain in the US, not sure about UK although it is available at Soundimports. A search of diyaudio will find plenty of mic recommedations.
2) Preamp - Behringer UMC202, Steinberg UR22mkii, Motu M4, etc. The Behringer is on sale at a nice price at Sweetwater but probably irrelevant for the UK.
3) Some mic and other cables (and maybe adapters) for the loopback wiring
My questions regarding this would be what is entailed with point number 3? would it just be a cheap extra mic (maybe Behringer ECM-8000?)
Also what cables? Would this be the 1/4" to 1/4" mono patch cable you mentioned earlier or would there be others that are required?
I did find a link for the EMM-6 on amazon.co.uk, but it doesn't differentiate between the basic & the premium version? I'm not sure what the difference is? (apart from premium is better!😉 😀)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dayton-EMM-6-Electret-Measurement-Microphone/dp/B002KI8X40
Would this be a suitable version of this mic or is it missing something?
Also A4eaudio posted the following which seems to be a sensible shopping list:
Purchase:
1) Calibrated xlr microphone - Dayton EMM-6 is a good bargain in the US, not sure about UK although it is available at Soundimports. A search of diyaudio will find plenty of mic recommedations.
2) Preamp - Behringer UMC202, Steinberg UR22mkii, Motu M4, etc. The Behringer is on sale at a nice price at Sweetwater but probably irrelevant for the UK.
3) Some mic and other cables (and maybe adapters) for the loopback wiring
My questions regarding this would be what is entailed with point number 3? would it just be a cheap extra mic (maybe Behringer ECM-8000?)
Also what cables? Would this be the 1/4" to 1/4" mono patch cable you mentioned earlier or would there be others that are required?
Do NOT get just the emm-6.
Again, get it from Cross Spectrum and specifically get it in their "Premium" ($90 US) version as mentioned on the "Pricing" tab on this webpage:
https://www.cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_dayton.html
You won't do better for less, and the value that Cross Spectrum provides is far beyond their additional pricing to the emm-6 (and very useful for measuring and integrating drivers into a loudspeaker).
Do NOT get the UMC202.
Get the UMC204.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-U-PHORIA-UMC204HD-Audio-Interface/dp/B00SAV96JM
The patch cable should be 1/4 mono male to 1/4 mono male and could be as short as 6". Here is one that's 1 meter:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gxfcyffs-Electric-Keyboard-Professional-Instrument/dp/B09LLY6P4V/ref=sr_1_16?crid=2WDRRS8Z7Q9NB&keywords=1%2F4+to+1%2F4+male+cable+1m&qid=1672782330&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=1%2F4+to+1%2F4+male+cable+1m%2Cmi%2C203&sr=1-16
Again, get it from Cross Spectrum and specifically get it in their "Premium" ($90 US) version as mentioned on the "Pricing" tab on this webpage:
https://www.cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_dayton.html
You won't do better for less, and the value that Cross Spectrum provides is far beyond their additional pricing to the emm-6 (and very useful for measuring and integrating drivers into a loudspeaker).
Do NOT get the UMC202.
Get the UMC204.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-U-PHORIA-UMC204HD-Audio-Interface/dp/B00SAV96JM
The patch cable should be 1/4 mono male to 1/4 mono male and could be as short as 6". Here is one that's 1 meter:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gxfcyffs-Electric-Keyboard-Professional-Instrument/dp/B09LLY6P4V/ref=sr_1_16?crid=2WDRRS8Z7Q9NB&keywords=1%2F4+to+1%2F4+male+cable+1m&qid=1672782330&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=1%2F4+to+1%2F4+male+cable+1m%2Cmi%2C203&sr=1-16
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I have a UMIK 1 and have used it to calibrate some condenser mic capsules off of it. This way you can have both a USB mic with all the ease of use, plus a way of making an unlimited amount of well-enough-calibrated condenser capsules. YMMV, of course.
Now I know that second hand calibration is not exactly super accurate. but for my application, it's proven itself to be Good Enough (TM). My main focus is gathering in room impulse responses for room correction with DRC-FIR.
I used some AOM-5024L-HD-R capsules from PUI. They are not as linear as the old Panasonic WM-61 and they have a 6dB dip at about 15k. But the SNR of 80dB (A-weighted) and the subjectively excellent sounding recordings I made with them made me want to try regardless.
The way I go about it is that I take my cheapie chinese IEMs (CCA C10), upgraded with 'Foamer' brand memory foam ear tips, and mount them flat against the mic capsule / UMIK, using heat shrink tubing. I then measure the same channel of the IEM with both mics and calculate a new correction file with LibreOffice.
It's all miles away from being professional or high end, but it's a fun way to spend an afternoon.
This shows the standard IEM on the right and my micro calibration crapshoot measurement jig consisting of a condenser capsule, a heat shrink tube and the IEM tip
My DIY pseudo-calibrated room mic made out of a piece of bamboo from the 1-euro-store and a telescopic antenna
Measurement results of both mics with their respective cal files loaded, measuring the same IEM.
Now I know that second hand calibration is not exactly super accurate. but for my application, it's proven itself to be Good Enough (TM). My main focus is gathering in room impulse responses for room correction with DRC-FIR.
I used some AOM-5024L-HD-R capsules from PUI. They are not as linear as the old Panasonic WM-61 and they have a 6dB dip at about 15k. But the SNR of 80dB (A-weighted) and the subjectively excellent sounding recordings I made with them made me want to try regardless.
The way I go about it is that I take my cheapie chinese IEMs (CCA C10), upgraded with 'Foamer' brand memory foam ear tips, and mount them flat against the mic capsule / UMIK, using heat shrink tubing. I then measure the same channel of the IEM with both mics and calculate a new correction file with LibreOffice.
It's all miles away from being professional or high end, but it's a fun way to spend an afternoon.
This shows the standard IEM on the right and my micro calibration crapshoot measurement jig consisting of a condenser capsule, a heat shrink tube and the IEM tip
My DIY pseudo-calibrated room mic made out of a piece of bamboo from the 1-euro-store and a telescopic antenna
Measurement results of both mics with their respective cal files loaded, measuring the same IEM.
Remember, OP is in the UK. Still might be worth it, but a better mic might end up being cheaper taking shipping into account.
I didn't mean an extra mic. I meant the xlr mic cable (something like 20 feet) and the 1/4" to 1/4" adapters.
Oh it's absolutely worth it UNLESS he can get the same service in the UK for the same or less. (..well, unless the shipping & customs is truly dire.) I can't think of any other microphones with an accurate calibration file for less than about $300 US (not including shipping) - really you start into (on the low-end) Earthworks to get good calibration files and those are typically $500+.
Again, I've got 2 emm-6's that I no longer use because neither are particularly accurate with Dayton's calibration file (and because I've got a better microphone to calibrate).
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I went that route as well, though I got a Cross Spectrum calibrated UMIK-1.
Still, it's an added cost (having 2 or more microphones).
Not in the UK but in Germany you can get cheap mics with acurate calibration files from Hifi Selbstbau
https://shop.hifi-selbstbau.de/produkt-kategorie/messtechnik/
They have USB and XLR options, they also calibrate UMIKs or any mic you send them, for a reasonable price. I have used their services before and found it to be worth the money.
One can never have enough good microphones, IMHO 😉Still, it's an added cost (having 2 or more microphones).
I used my box of condenser capsules to build measurement mics for over-ear and in-ear headphones, room mics, what have you. I think I spent €75 on 25 PUI capsules. Well worth the money for all I got out of them so far.
In addition to the patch cable for Semi-Dual setup, you would need:
1. a short cable with 1/4 mono male to (presumably) RCA male (from Behringer DAC to Amplifier Input),
2. a long speaker cable (from *Amplifier to Driver under test)
3. a long cable with female XLR to male XLR (from microphone to Behringer DAC).
*I use one channel of the Dayton Audio 150. Arta recommends Thomann's mono amp for this purpose:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tamp_pm40c_endstufenmodul.htm
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That's good! 👍
..no Sensitivity which is a bummer.🙁
Still, I could see sending an OM1 to them for calibration for those in Europe - that would really push the scales on value (when compared to other far more costly options).
What about using a cheap SPL meter in the same manner I described earlier (heatshrink tube and IEM) to get a 1kHz SPL reading and taking it from there?
Again, more mic.s! 😛
Yeah, I've also done that - but really they aren't that accurate (or at least the one I have isn't). 🙁
I personally figured the UMIK-1's own "internal" sensitivity was good enough (because at 1 kHz it's actually reasonably accurate), so I use it for 1 kHz sensitivity measurements with REW. Really I've got it performing 3 rolls: quick occasional freq. response testing (substantive accuracy not-needed), quick sensitivity testing (spl meter substitute), and using the Cross Spectrum cal. file for calibrating the OM1. Plus - it's pretty well-made mic.. 🙂
Yeah, I've also done that - but really they aren't that accurate (or at least the one I have isn't). 🙁
I personally figured the UMIK-1's own "internal" sensitivity was good enough (because at 1 kHz it's actually reasonably accurate), so I use it for 1 kHz sensitivity measurements with REW. Really I've got it performing 3 rolls: quick occasional freq. response testing (substantive accuracy not-needed), quick sensitivity testing (spl meter substitute), and using the Cross Spectrum cal. file for calibrating the OM1. Plus - it's pretty well-made mic.. 🙂
True, but in my case, it's one I already have.
I suspected that. If a €30 SPL meter were perfectly accurate, why would anyone build a more expensive one?
Maybe I should compare the readings from my SPL meter to my UMIK the next time I fool around with this stuff.
That's interesting, I'm pretty much the same. Nowadays I try to use the UMIK mainly for calibrating my DIY stuff. I also take it along when I'm measuring for friends. As far as optics are concerned, my DIY contraptions don't exactly inspire confidence to the uninitiated.
Wow, I've been there as well! (..I've put together some real eye-sores.) 😊 My last project was specifically designed to be boringly unobtrusive, and it's one of my better looking projects.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned holm impusle. You can get relative phase measurements with it without a second channel. I've not used a USB mic, but provided it does not have variable latency it should not be an issue to get the relative phase measurements using the "lock time zero" method.
A Dayton IMM-6 (potentially with a diy adapter depending on what you are plugging it into) with a diy mic preamp that provides three volts mic voltage and holm impulse is probably the cheapest and easiest entry into doing speaker measurements. The IMM-6 has a calibration file and only costs about $21 US.
I've yet to try it, but I've wanted to out of curiosity, but I suspect using the passthrough jack you could actually use it for doing measurements on a laptop with a trrs plug for mic and headphone output (or an adapter to take trrs to separate mic and headphone if your pc has that without even needing a mic preamp. I have a feeling from memory that the plug for iphone/android is different to the standard used on pc for trrs, so will probably require some experimentation to get it working..
I've also made a nice mic line driver that allows an electret mic to run off the phantom power of a mic pre such as in a focusrite scarlet or other USB sound cards with phantom power mic inputs.
A Dayton IMM-6 (potentially with a diy adapter depending on what you are plugging it into) with a diy mic preamp that provides three volts mic voltage and holm impulse is probably the cheapest and easiest entry into doing speaker measurements. The IMM-6 has a calibration file and only costs about $21 US.
I've yet to try it, but I've wanted to out of curiosity, but I suspect using the passthrough jack you could actually use it for doing measurements on a laptop with a trrs plug for mic and headphone output (or an adapter to take trrs to separate mic and headphone if your pc has that without even needing a mic preamp. I have a feeling from memory that the plug for iphone/android is different to the standard used on pc for trrs, so will probably require some experimentation to get it working..
I've also made a nice mic line driver that allows an electret mic to run off the phantom power of a mic pre such as in a focusrite scarlet or other USB sound cards with phantom power mic inputs.
I fully intend to get a measurement system that is more accurate and capable, but I have gotten by using my "minimalist method":
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/#post-7143129
(and below it)
I do have a Radio Shack SPL meter and "reference" bookshelf speakers for making direct L/R comparison; if necessary, level-matched using identical Class D amps with dB-stepped volume control. While I cannot "phase-sweep" as I can frequency-sweep (down to hz), at a specific frequency (such as around XO) phase alignment/offset can be heard, by moving one driver until test-tone combined sound is loudest/fullest (which is wavelength periodic). I think my hearing is a very sensitive instrument 100-10000hz; outside the range I can still L/R compare directly against some "reference", within limitations of course.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ge-drivers-and-a-tweeter.391053/#post-7143129
(and below it)
I do have a Radio Shack SPL meter and "reference" bookshelf speakers for making direct L/R comparison; if necessary, level-matched using identical Class D amps with dB-stepped volume control. While I cannot "phase-sweep" as I can frequency-sweep (down to hz), at a specific frequency (such as around XO) phase alignment/offset can be heard, by moving one driver until test-tone combined sound is loudest/fullest (which is wavelength periodic). I think my hearing is a very sensitive instrument 100-10000hz; outside the range I can still L/R compare directly against some "reference", within limitations of course.