I have been reading a few threads on this site regarding this topic which has answered some questions but then inevitably led to further questions. To be honest I am starting to go around in circles. To avoid the "paralysis by analysis" scenario, I thought I should try and break down my areas of concern as follows.
I need something that is easy to learn and intuitive to use, but also has most of the important functions I will require. I realise this can be a balancing act.
Most people mention Arta & REW as being excellent but then I hear other people on this forum state that they think USB mikes aren't the best. I think someone mentioned that they don't measure speaker phase? ( I could be wrong here, but I am new to this and could be mis interpreting/mis remembering things, so bear with me). I believe phase measurement is important for good imaging?
Is there a decent set up that will cover all the measurements I require including phase, that is also friendly enough to learn as a first timer?
I don't want to over complicate things but at the same time I don't want to invest time and money into something that only does part of the job.
Any help (and links) that will help me make a sensible first purchase will be appreciated. I should also perhaps mention that I am based in the UK.
Thanks
Paul
I need something that is easy to learn and intuitive to use, but also has most of the important functions I will require. I realise this can be a balancing act.
Most people mention Arta & REW as being excellent but then I hear other people on this forum state that they think USB mikes aren't the best. I think someone mentioned that they don't measure speaker phase? ( I could be wrong here, but I am new to this and could be mis interpreting/mis remembering things, so bear with me). I believe phase measurement is important for good imaging?
Is there a decent set up that will cover all the measurements I require including phase, that is also friendly enough to learn as a first timer?
I don't want to over complicate things but at the same time I don't want to invest time and money into something that only does part of the job.
Any help (and links) that will help me make a sensible first purchase will be appreciated. I should also perhaps mention that I am based in the UK.
Thanks
Paul
Thanks for some quick replies.
My objectives are for personal use. I have an existing project which consists of a 2 way design I built (audio excite revelation 2) which I have now built into a lager cab coupled with two added bass drivers. The tweeter & bass/mid are still using Goran's passive x-over, but it is using active x-over for the added bass units. The main (electronic) work for this is being carried out by my cousin who has experience with active speakers. The idea is that he gets it working and in the general ball park but then when I get them back, I need to measure and tune for my room and listening preferences. They are wired up and working now so hopefully this won't be to far in the future.
He has a measurement system but it is no longer available to buy, so I figured if I am starting from scratch I would ask people here what the best options are that are currently available.
I will need an audio interface but wouldn't want it to be DIY. I am a mechanical engineer so cab design etc is easy for me but I am still a beginner with electronics. I understand enough to build things like the passive x-over for the revelation 2's but don't feel confident enough for a DIY audio interface. I also don't want to bog my cousin down with further work as he has already been very generous with his time so far.
I would also be looking to use this for future projects as the DIY bug is starting to bite!
My objectives are for personal use. I have an existing project which consists of a 2 way design I built (audio excite revelation 2) which I have now built into a lager cab coupled with two added bass drivers. The tweeter & bass/mid are still using Goran's passive x-over, but it is using active x-over for the added bass units. The main (electronic) work for this is being carried out by my cousin who has experience with active speakers. The idea is that he gets it working and in the general ball park but then when I get them back, I need to measure and tune for my room and listening preferences. They are wired up and working now so hopefully this won't be to far in the future.
He has a measurement system but it is no longer available to buy, so I figured if I am starting from scratch I would ask people here what the best options are that are currently available.
I will need an audio interface but wouldn't want it to be DIY. I am a mechanical engineer so cab design etc is easy for me but I am still a beginner with electronics. I understand enough to build things like the passive x-over for the revelation 2's but don't feel confident enough for a DIY audio interface. I also don't want to bog my cousin down with further work as he has already been very generous with his time so far.
I would also be looking to use this for future projects as the DIY bug is starting to bite!
The Behringer UMC204HD audio interface and Sonarworks SoundID reference microhhone work for me. It replaced a cheap usb sound card and miniDSP usb microphone. I'm using REW. The reason I upgraded was to measure driver offsets, not an easy thing to do with a usb microphone. I'm sure you will get more recommendations.
A long time ago, I put together a speaker measurement setup with a Panasonic WM-61A condenser microphone, a pre-amplifer of my design, a PC with a sound card, and software that I wrote.
The Panasonic WM-61A has ruler-flat frequency response, is omnidirectional, but its S/N is poor at low frequencies (but just good enough for speaker measurement). Pre-amplifers for tiny condenser microphones tend to have high-pass filters that make them unsuitable for measurement.
Ed
The Panasonic WM-61A has ruler-flat frequency response, is omnidirectional, but its S/N is poor at low frequencies (but just good enough for speaker measurement). Pre-amplifers for tiny condenser microphones tend to have high-pass filters that make them unsuitable for measurement.
Ed
UMIK-1 is probably good enough, but UMIK-2 is better if you can spend a bit more. https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
There are other USB mics that are very good, but not at that price point. I've been using https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.3.6faf5c925g7Cc1
There are other USB mics that are very good, but not at that price point. I've been using https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...ml?spm=a2700.shop_plgr.41413.3.6faf5c925g7Cc1
A good capsule, yes. Get it out of the noise but don't overdrive it.. but this is good practice in any case
When you have no time it is always more expensive, they sell you the time saving tools : Clio pocket is something you could look at as an integrated solution.
The diy approach needs:
a two channels in and out external soundcard on which you use a calibrated mic. The soundcard must have the phantom power inside as those mic often needs 48V. AES cables between the mic and the sound card; AES to to AES or chinch 5 meters cable between the amp and the soundcard. Soundcard being piloted by the laptop through usb. The laptop on which the soft are is sending sound samples (weeps, pink noises and so on) to the speakers through the soundcard. (you not necessaily needs an integrated amp as the soundcard output is powerfull enough but the integrated external amp may have a better noise floor)
Whatever you need time as speaker measurement needs a lot of reading and skills. For two ways it is always less expensive to follow a ready diy project than designing your own but if the fun is to create and diy. Cabinets not being the easiest part as well...
It's belong to what you're looking for about your hobby priorities. Mine is about understanding how it is working, for some it is about saving monney by assembling a good kit; for some it is building many for chasing the best sound, etc ! This hoby is time consuming, the time you enjoy to DIY is time lost to listen to music however. Here my french approach is to have already a branded reference loudspeaker to listen to music and eat my camembert and red wine in peace. The loudspeaker reference is usefull to benchmark your further own work.
The diy approach needs:
a two channels in and out external soundcard on which you use a calibrated mic. The soundcard must have the phantom power inside as those mic often needs 48V. AES cables between the mic and the sound card; AES to to AES or chinch 5 meters cable between the amp and the soundcard. Soundcard being piloted by the laptop through usb. The laptop on which the soft are is sending sound samples (weeps, pink noises and so on) to the speakers through the soundcard. (you not necessaily needs an integrated amp as the soundcard output is powerfull enough but the integrated external amp may have a better noise floor)
- to avoid to construct a box for switching between impedance and spl measurement, you can buy Dayton V3 impedance and T&S measurement set.
- You need a mic stand with its horizontal rode
- A stand for rotating the speaker by 10° implements for taking measures with VituixCad if you want too designing the crossover. you can use tapes on the floor if you are not designing several loudspeaker a year.
- REW can be handy as well to measure the room. HolmImpule is handy, Arta is very good but need a licence (cheap) to save the datas, most of the time the inpulse responses to have a quality spl measurement and impedance measurement files you will import in the crossover/loudspeaker designing soft like VituixCad or Xsim or Basta for instance.
Whatever you need time as speaker measurement needs a lot of reading and skills. For two ways it is always less expensive to follow a ready diy project than designing your own but if the fun is to create and diy. Cabinets not being the easiest part as well...
It's belong to what you're looking for about your hobby priorities. Mine is about understanding how it is working, for some it is about saving monney by assembling a good kit; for some it is building many for chasing the best sound, etc ! This hoby is time consuming, the time you enjoy to DIY is time lost to listen to music however. Here my french approach is to have already a branded reference loudspeaker to listen to music and eat my camembert and red wine in peace. The loudspeaker reference is usefull to benchmark your further own work.
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I use REW, ARTA, and Smaart. Smaart is by far the easiest to use, although it is by far the most $$ too.
The big advantage Smaart offers is real-time frequency response and phase. You have to experience real-time measurements to appreciate them, i think.
There is a donate-ware program Open Sound Meter, that is also real-time. https://opensoundmeter.com/en/
I've barely used it because of Smaart, but it seems quite capable.
I believe REW is the only program that uses Umik. I strongly recommend going the external sound card & XLR mic route, even if REW is the program of choice. Umik is fine for a start, but quickly becomes akin to a bicycle with training wheels.
My recommendation for ease, capability, and cost, .....is try Open Sound Meter with a inexpensive soundcard like the UMC204HD already mentioned, and any cheap XLR mic. As an example, an ECM8000 is only $35. After you get proficient making measurements, upgrade to however accurate a mic you feel you need. The soundcard will still be good enough.
Dual-channel real-time is definitely the way to go imo.
The big advantage Smaart offers is real-time frequency response and phase. You have to experience real-time measurements to appreciate them, i think.
There is a donate-ware program Open Sound Meter, that is also real-time. https://opensoundmeter.com/en/
I've barely used it because of Smaart, but it seems quite capable.
I believe REW is the only program that uses Umik. I strongly recommend going the external sound card & XLR mic route, even if REW is the program of choice. Umik is fine for a start, but quickly becomes akin to a bicycle with training wheels.
My recommendation for ease, capability, and cost, .....is try Open Sound Meter with a inexpensive soundcard like the UMC204HD already mentioned, and any cheap XLR mic. As an example, an ECM8000 is only $35. After you get proficient making measurements, upgrade to however accurate a mic you feel you need. The soundcard will still be good enough.
Dual-channel real-time is definitely the way to go imo.
Thanks for the further replies, I have been away for a couple of days with no access to a computer, so apologies for not replying sooner.
It seems that people are split into two camps. Those who like Umiks and other USB mic's and others who think that dual channel set up is the only way to go.
Mark's post does make a lot of sense in that I am sure that either approach would yield good results but something like the UMC204HD with a cheap Mic is similar money to the Umik setup but offers more functionality in the future. Maybe at the cost of ease of learning?
I did take a quick google of Smaart and at first glance it appears to be about $1100 dollars plus a yearly license, unless I have got this wrong? If it does cost that then it does put it out of the question. I think Marks recommendation of "open sound meter" is a good start and if I struggle with it then I can ask further questions
So the shopping list at the moment looks like the UMC204HD is a no brainer. With regards to the mic, should I just go for something like the ECM8000 ($35) or would the slight extra investment of something like the Sonarworks SoundID reference microphone ($89) be worth it? where should I pitch in for a good starter mic, ie the sweet spot for money versus spec?
Thanks for all the help so far, it has helped me move a lot closer to getting a suitable set-up.
It seems that people are split into two camps. Those who like Umiks and other USB mic's and others who think that dual channel set up is the only way to go.
Mark's post does make a lot of sense in that I am sure that either approach would yield good results but something like the UMC204HD with a cheap Mic is similar money to the Umik setup but offers more functionality in the future. Maybe at the cost of ease of learning?
I did take a quick google of Smaart and at first glance it appears to be about $1100 dollars plus a yearly license, unless I have got this wrong? If it does cost that then it does put it out of the question. I think Marks recommendation of "open sound meter" is a good start and if I struggle with it then I can ask further questions
So the shopping list at the moment looks like the UMC204HD is a no brainer. With regards to the mic, should I just go for something like the ECM8000 ($35) or would the slight extra investment of something like the Sonarworks SoundID reference microphone ($89) be worth it? where should I pitch in for a good starter mic, ie the sweet spot for money versus spec?
Thanks for all the help so far, it has helped me move a lot closer to getting a suitable set-up.
Yes. And to expand further, dual-channel simply means one channel vs the other. You can compare any two points in the signal chain, a step at a time if need be....or the entire chain. Or two-mics, etc.
Smaart has a trimmed down version for around $500, that is more than adequate for home use. https://www.rationalacoustics.com/products/smaart-le-v9-perpetual
(all versions are available either perpetual (non-expiring) or annual subscription)
I still think OSM would be a great way to start (with the disclaimer I don't know it very well).
That said, getting REW as well, and playing with both could help accelerate learning.
The thing with REW imo, is that it is so capable in so many ways, with so many options, particularly when it comes to measurement timing options and what they do to phase traces, that it is almost an expert tool.
For instance, Smaart or OSM, calculate a timing delay automatically against a loopback refence channel that gives consistent, understandable phase traces.
All Time-of-flight, fixed delay, is automatically and accurately removed.
REW calculates a timing delay against a loopback reference, but it must be inserted manually and with respect to whatever timing offset or adjustments have been previously entered. Or use an automated estimate IR shift, or frequency dependent windowing, or......, or....
When REW's timing is done manually, timing in REW equals that found with Smaart or OSM. and ...i use it a lot due to REW's much greater array of graphs/measurement types capabilities.
Anyway point is, I think learning both OSM and REW will help accelerate understanding measurements.
With REW and a USB mic you do not have to have a dual channel setup to measure time delays between drivers / phase. There is an option to use an acoustic timing reference from the 'other' channel instead of a 'loop back'. This allows measurement of driver offsets. Every time I reply to posts with this information on Diyaudio it seems to be ignored for some reason.
I started with an ECM8000 and a behringer shark mic preamp (with trueRTA and ETF). Spent more time making sure the levels were set ok, and there wasn't any random noise / dsp settings getting into the circuit than measuring. I ended up buying a Umik. Very happy with it.
Last year I bought a behringer interface and a cheap mic to do dual channel measurements with wavelets inspired by Mark100's post here . Haven't got round to setting it up yet but looking forwards to setting it up.
Basically, REW and a Umik is a really easy / painless way to get measurements done, but phase / delay stuff takes a bit more effort. Mic + interface setups more effort required to set up and calibrate (umik comes with calibration file, spl is correct. Other setups you would need to calibrate spl figures - maybe buy an old school spl meter and setup with test tones ? ) but easier to get a phase measurement.
Rob.
First came the USB mics. Then REW had to implement this as a way to manage the problem they created. (...at least this is the way many will be seeing the problem, even though some prefer to simplify it to more of a glass half full scenario.)
Hi Rob, the problem with REW's acoustic timing reference is that it uses a sweep that runs from 5Khz to 20Khz,
so it's not very useable to find timing for driver sections that don't include that freq range. (like mids only, lows, or subs)
If your measurements are always of a complete speaker, it should work fine.
From REW Help:
If an acoustic timing reference is used REW will generate a timing signal on the output that has been selected to act as the reference before it generates measurement sweeps on the channels being measured. The timing signal is a sweep from 5 kHz to 20 kHz lasting about 700 ms. It must be directed to a speaker that can reproduce high frequencies, one that has a tweeter.
Hope I didn't lead you down a unused path , one of no value to you...