eek.
the breakup modes on that dayton are scary.
I've found a flat response is very important.
but good luck finding that in a non poly driver.
the breakup modes on that dayton are scary.
I've found a flat response is very important.
but good luck finding that in a non poly driver.
It looks worse than it is. With a -24dB BW or LR LPF at 1.7k most of that is squashed. There is one peak that can use a simple notch to easily control. But look at how flat it is up to the breakup. Smooth. Sounds very nice actually.
Eeek, is what I said before also. Not any more, treat metal cones as metal cones should be treated and one will be rewarded with extremely smooth midband.
Peter
Peter
Ok folks,
So I finally got time in my life to figure on the speakers I was planning to purchase from Visaton, a couple of years ago.
Looks like this is going to be the kit:
Woofers - W 200 S - 8 Ohm
Tweeters - TW 70 - 8 Ohm
Vents - BR 19.24
The only thing that I'm missing now and truly LAZY TO DO is the crossover.
So I'm looking into something done that will work with this kit.
Visaton lists a couple of assembled crossovers:
http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/weichen/index.html
I wonder if they would work with these drivers. If they don't, can you remember of anything over Parts-Express, Solen or Meniscus Audio?
My box is still the same I took pictures in this thread. 30L.
Thank you.
So I finally got time in my life to figure on the speakers I was planning to purchase from Visaton, a couple of years ago.
Looks like this is going to be the kit:
Woofers - W 200 S - 8 Ohm
Tweeters - TW 70 - 8 Ohm
Vents - BR 19.24
The only thing that I'm missing now and truly LAZY TO DO is the crossover.
So I'm looking into something done that will work with this kit.
Visaton lists a couple of assembled crossovers:
http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/weichen/index.html
I wonder if they would work with these drivers. If they don't, can you remember of anything over Parts-Express, Solen or Meniscus Audio?
My box is still the same I took pictures in this thread. 30L.
Thank you.
Well, how flippin' idle are YOU! 😀
Downloads
30L box, 11cm tube, and a modified HW 2/70 NG - 8 Ohm should do it.
I came up with something like this. Should do the job. Some drilling and cutting to the premade crossover and you are there.
Downloads
30L box, 11cm tube, and a modified HW 2/70 NG - 8 Ohm should do it.
I came up with something like this. Should do the job. Some drilling and cutting to the premade crossover and you are there.
Attachments
From the SPL plot, it looks like a 3.2Khz crossover frequency was selected, which seems high.
Several 2-way designs using an 8" midbass use 1.4kHz - 1.6kHz crossovers with 3rd or 4th order acoustic slopes to a "robust" tweeter. 34mm Dome or 2" cone tweeters are used on popular designs.
If you are "flippin' idle", you may want to search for lower/steeper crossover designs to study before final build.
Mate, there's so many ways to skin a cat with this combo. 😀
I've built this sort of efficient second-order thing:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-25.html#post4428857
With the Visaton drive units, it works out like this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147632-classic-monitor-designs-27.html#post4596264
Nice, but a bit of cone breakup from the bass. I prefer my previous near BW3 idea, which damps the bass better. You can do LR4 too, and I have, with 4th order tweeter, but that gets complex. 90 degree phase BW3 solves most of the dispersion issues with a high 3kHz crossover.
FWIW, just use cheapish 42 strand speaker cable for hookups. It hardly matters. And thinner cable is easier.
I think Krafty means the diameter of the coils wire, if i read it correctly between the lines 😉
Reading between the lines is not my speciality. People just fret about nothing. 😀
Anyway, the Visaton HW 2/70 NG - 8 Ohm has a 1 ohm bass air coil and a 0.6 ohm tweeter coil: SP coils
What's wrong with that?
Anyway, the Visaton HW 2/70 NG - 8 Ohm has a 1 ohm bass air coil and a 0.6 ohm tweeter coil: SP coils
What's wrong with that?
I believe LineSource is referring to the issue of the woofer beaming a significant amount before the crossover point. Another beefy dome tweeter worth mention is the Dayton RS28. Or you could go for an even better directivity match with a SEOS 8 and a decent dome.
Yes, the diameter of coils. I think that determines the ohms that system7 specified?
Example: 0,50 ohms can only be acquired with a certain diameter in the coil...
As I am waiting contact from Visaton, I will need to work out something here... a real dirty job...
I acquired a Yamaha RX-V359.
I think my current loudspeakers are not tuned for this device.
I was using an old stereo with embedded equalizer to "make it sound nice".
But now I will have to tweak - as the mids are disturbing me a lot.
Currently I have no crossover on the drivers, but a resistor and capacitor through the piezos - this is cutting the high frequencies a bit (I will have to lower that value, to tweak with Yamaha "natural sound").
But I need to find a way to quickly cut a bit of mid-range from the woofer, it is making the sound loud and I can't feel much of the bass (I'd have to raise the volume more). Any ideas on how this can be accomplished?
Example: 0,50 ohms can only be acquired with a certain diameter in the coil...
As I am waiting contact from Visaton, I will need to work out something here... a real dirty job...
I acquired a Yamaha RX-V359.
I think my current loudspeakers are not tuned for this device.
I was using an old stereo with embedded equalizer to "make it sound nice".
But now I will have to tweak - as the mids are disturbing me a lot.
Currently I have no crossover on the drivers, but a resistor and capacitor through the piezos - this is cutting the high frequencies a bit (I will have to lower that value, to tweak with Yamaha "natural sound").
But I need to find a way to quickly cut a bit of mid-range from the woofer, it is making the sound loud and I can't feel much of the bass (I'd have to raise the volume more). Any ideas on how this can be accomplished?
The Visaton W200S cone has ~7.16" diameter, which corresponds to a 1900Hz wavelength. No surprise, the W200S frequency plot shows irregular SPL starting just above 2kHz from edge reflections and cone breakup. A crossover below 1900Hz with an acoustic slope which significantly attenuates this distortion is necessary.
The polar response pattern for the Visaton W200S at 30-degrees off-axis measures -2.5db down at 2kHz, and -6.5db at 3kHz. A crossover at 3kHz would generate ~ 6.5db drop in SPL for listeners sitting 30 degrees off the axis, and everyone would hear an irregular sound stage from the change in energy ratio of front SPL vs. side SPL around 3kHz.
Boxes. The shape of your 50cmH x 29,9cmL x 22cmD front baffle, and the location of the speakers affects the SPL shape. When the sound wavelength is shorter than the baffle width all of the driver energy is projected front(180-degrees). At lower frequencies, the sound pressure wave wraps around the box and spreads the driver energy into the entire room(360-degrees), which drops the front SPL the listener hears. Mounting the tweeter slightly off-center spreads the edge diffraction energy over a wider frequency range.
krafty, System7 already has your design in BoxSim, I suspect that only generous help from System7 on a BW3 or LR4 acoustic slope crossover around 1400-1500Hz will get good sound. I suspect it would take you 3-4 nights learning BoxSim to design a good Xover circuit.
This long journey deserves a good result.
The polar response pattern for the Visaton W200S at 30-degrees off-axis measures -2.5db down at 2kHz, and -6.5db at 3kHz. A crossover at 3kHz would generate ~ 6.5db drop in SPL for listeners sitting 30 degrees off the axis, and everyone would hear an irregular sound stage from the change in energy ratio of front SPL vs. side SPL around 3kHz.
Boxes. The shape of your 50cmH x 29,9cmL x 22cmD front baffle, and the location of the speakers affects the SPL shape. When the sound wavelength is shorter than the baffle width all of the driver energy is projected front(180-degrees). At lower frequencies, the sound pressure wave wraps around the box and spreads the driver energy into the entire room(360-degrees), which drops the front SPL the listener hears. Mounting the tweeter slightly off-center spreads the edge diffraction energy over a wider frequency range.
krafty, System7 already has your design in BoxSim, I suspect that only generous help from System7 on a BW3 or LR4 acoustic slope crossover around 1400-1500Hz will get good sound. I suspect it would take you 3-4 nights learning BoxSim to design a good Xover circuit.
This long journey deserves a good result.
Attachments
Thanks LineSource,
I see that Parts-Express has W200S for shipping and they're doing Brazil again.
One problem: They don't have the TW-70. Is there any replaceable tweeter up to it (in this store)?
There are several type of dome tweeters and the paper cone tweeters are reduced to 4 items. Which is the tweeter to go with the W200S?
I will look into that software. I looks as though it was projected to work only with Visaton components, so I'm not sure about it if I get another brand of tweeter... unless some expert pours some light into the issue. Thank you.
I see that Parts-Express has W200S for shipping and they're doing Brazil again.
One problem: They don't have the TW-70. Is there any replaceable tweeter up to it (in this store)?
There are several type of dome tweeters and the paper cone tweeters are reduced to 4 items. Which is the tweeter to go with the W200S?
I will look into that software. I looks as though it was projected to work only with Visaton components, so I'm not sure about it if I get another brand of tweeter... unless some expert pours some light into the issue. Thank you.
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I agree with Face ... I would use the medium priced Dayton RS28F soft dome tweeter with a BW3 or (probably)LR4 acoustic slope crossover at 1,500Hz. You can find designs with the RS28F mated @1500Hz to the RS225P 8" paper woofer on the web.
If you are purchasing from Parts Express USA, it is probably best to complete the crossover now so you can purchase L-R-C passives in the same shipping.
The Dayton website has the FRD and ZMA data files required for RS28F BoxSim or XSIM. BoxSim will work with any driver's FRD/ZMA data. You can also write Dayton FRD/ZMA files into a Visaton physical dome tweeter component file.
If you are purchasing from Parts Express USA, it is probably best to complete the crossover now so you can purchase L-R-C passives in the same shipping.
The Dayton website has the FRD and ZMA data files required for RS28F BoxSim or XSIM. BoxSim will work with any driver's FRD/ZMA data. You can also write Dayton FRD/ZMA files into a Visaton physical dome tweeter component file.
You guys do bang on about low crossover point. I don't think it's necessary at all! 3kHz works for me. 😀
I built this one with a W200S bass originally, but I do like the retro-looking Sony woofer. It has very light acoustically transparent cloth dustcap which I think is good. Very musical, it originally ran with just a 3.3uF cap on the tweeter and nothing else. I bought the Sony E44 in a junk shop for £20 with a mind to doing a better crossover.
If I changed the 0.3mH on the tweeter to 0.2mH, we'd be near the old Celestion Ditton filter. But the bigger coil fills in the power response hole at 3kHz crossover and improves dispersion, ie near 90 degree phase BW3.
The 90dB Visaton DT94-8 0.8" Polycarbonate Dome Tweeter 8 Ohm is a slot in replacement for the TW70 cone tweeter. You can hear the better dispersion at the very top. It's a pleasant speaker, I have it running right now. The red 4.7R is level adjust on the tweeter, simple as that.
I built this one with a W200S bass originally, but I do like the retro-looking Sony woofer. It has very light acoustically transparent cloth dustcap which I think is good. Very musical, it originally ran with just a 3.3uF cap on the tweeter and nothing else. I bought the Sony E44 in a junk shop for £20 with a mind to doing a better crossover.
If I changed the 0.3mH on the tweeter to 0.2mH, we'd be near the old Celestion Ditton filter. But the bigger coil fills in the power response hole at 3kHz crossover and improves dispersion, ie near 90 degree phase BW3.
The 90dB Visaton DT94-8 0.8" Polycarbonate Dome Tweeter 8 Ohm is a slot in replacement for the TW70 cone tweeter. You can hear the better dispersion at the very top. It's a pleasant speaker, I have it running right now. The red 4.7R is level adjust on the tweeter, simple as that.
Attachments
Nice...
W200S - 8 plus DT94 seems like a nice purchase.
I have seen some crossovers over there and they're all ready to go.
Which would be my pick? I'd rather spend a thousand dollars getting everything done than waste my expanded vacation over circuits, coils and soldering.
Crossover doesn't need to be perfect (remembering I'm not very keen to mid frequencies). Just want to assemble a nice setup to go majestically with Yamaha RX-V359.
W200S - 8 plus DT94 seems like a nice purchase.
I have seen some crossovers over there and they're all ready to go.
Which would be my pick? I'd rather spend a thousand dollars getting everything done than waste my expanded vacation over circuits, coils and soldering.
Crossover doesn't need to be perfect (remembering I'm not very keen to mid frequencies). Just want to assemble a nice setup to go majestically with Yamaha RX-V359.
Since you plan to purchase from Parts Express USA which stocks Dayton drivers.
Example: Dayton RS225P-8 (paper) and RS28F-4 (silk) crossed at 1,500Hz with LR4 circuit, in 30L ~ 0.9cuft box with 18" (Height) x 11" (Width) baffle, with 2" diameter x 10" long port tuned to 28Hz. A larger box volume could generate deeper bass. Simulated with the tweeter mounted 2" down from top, and 2" offcenter.
A low-frequency(1500Hz) crossover design you can review.
Example: Dayton RS225P-8 (paper) and RS28F-4 (silk) crossed at 1,500Hz with LR4 circuit, in 30L ~ 0.9cuft box with 18" (Height) x 11" (Width) baffle, with 2" diameter x 10" long port tuned to 28Hz. A larger box volume could generate deeper bass. Simulated with the tweeter mounted 2" down from top, and 2" offcenter.
A low-frequency(1500Hz) crossover design you can review.
Attachments
I'm actually thinking of biting the bullet and build a 65-70 liter 9mm MDF tower cabinet, with perhaps one 10" woofer or the ones recommended here, with their matching tweeters, on each side.
I did a quote on Parts-Express and they are now shipping to Brazil, but they include a shipping price plus upfront importation tax, which was, to my order $ 379.00 USD, not even counting the items.
Since inland I only have Sellenium option, for now, which would be your pick guys? The Woofers or Midbasses?
It's incredible how my old stereo sounds much better on crap Hinor speakers inside 30L cabinets (photos on previous messages in this thread), and the Yamaha Receiver doesn't. This must be because that old stereo has 5-Way EQ. I usually like the 1K and 3K sliders almost all down, I can't stand those mid frequencies. (There are 5 [100Hz] [300Hz] [1KHz] [3kHz] [10KHz] sliders). Yamaha RX-V359 is supposed to give you much more natural sound but under these speakers is being really crap, and the device has got only tone adjustments (Bass and Treble).
I did a quote on Parts-Express and they are now shipping to Brazil, but they include a shipping price plus upfront importation tax, which was, to my order $ 379.00 USD, not even counting the items.
Since inland I only have Sellenium option, for now, which would be your pick guys? The Woofers or Midbasses?
It's incredible how my old stereo sounds much better on crap Hinor speakers inside 30L cabinets (photos on previous messages in this thread), and the Yamaha Receiver doesn't. This must be because that old stereo has 5-Way EQ. I usually like the 1K and 3K sliders almost all down, I can't stand those mid frequencies. (There are 5 [100Hz] [300Hz] [1KHz] [3kHz] [10KHz] sliders). Yamaha RX-V359 is supposed to give you much more natural sound but under these speakers is being really crap, and the device has got only tone adjustments (Bass and Treble).
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I noticed on your list of local manufacturers in Brazil that you didn't look at PRV Products | PRV Audio Brazil
They offer cabinet designs for 2-way speakers with a large woofer and h.f. driver: http://prvaudio.com/cabinet-designs/ - maybe they are too expensive ?
Can anybody recommend options for good used drivers that could be bought from eBay at lower cost and lower import tax ?
Once you have your new speakers, we're gonna get you to build a DIY amplifier which will sort this problem out too. Just PM me when you're ready.
They offer cabinet designs for 2-way speakers with a large woofer and h.f. driver: http://prvaudio.com/cabinet-designs/ - maybe they are too expensive ?
Can anybody recommend options for good used drivers that could be bought from eBay at lower cost and lower import tax ?
Once you have your new speakers, we're gonna get you to build a DIY amplifier which will sort this problem out too. Just PM me when you're ready.
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