Hi im in persuit of repairing some quad 63, ofcourse one menbrame was damaged so i have to redo them. But that brings me te following questions.
i wonderered about the thickness of film, since this is a stock quad nothing looks repaired not the panels nore the rest. it has the darkkish coating just like all the panels on the net have. all stator crates are the black ones.
Well i ripped the mylar and thought i read somehwere the menbrane is 3 micron, but this feels more like my standard 6 micron i use fo random projects. so got measuring tool wich measures to 0.01 mm so i stacked the mylar 8 times and measures +- 80 micron / divided by 8 folds leaves 10 micron, this is where the coating was aplied. i then did the same for the outter edge where no coating is applied and measured around 50 wich ends up being around 6.25 micron.
i then did the same with some 6 micron mylar i have around. ended up in being 55micron devided by 8 = 6.8 micron
so ofcource there is a prety big margin of my tools not being all that accurate, but i measured all mylar with the same tool , so the diferences between them should be sort of in the ball park.
So what thickness does the mylar of the bass panels have ??? because this shows it more near 6 micron then the claimed 3 micron. also are the mid pannels of thinner mylar???
i wonderered about the thickness of film, since this is a stock quad nothing looks repaired not the panels nore the rest. it has the darkkish coating just like all the panels on the net have. all stator crates are the black ones.
Well i ripped the mylar and thought i read somehwere the menbrane is 3 micron, but this feels more like my standard 6 micron i use fo random projects. so got measuring tool wich measures to 0.01 mm so i stacked the mylar 8 times and measures +- 80 micron / divided by 8 folds leaves 10 micron, this is where the coating was aplied. i then did the same for the outter edge where no coating is applied and measured around 50 wich ends up being around 6.25 micron.
i then did the same with some 6 micron mylar i have around. ended up in being 55micron devided by 8 = 6.8 micron
so ofcource there is a prety big margin of my tools not being all that accurate, but i measured all mylar with the same tool , so the diferences between them should be sort of in the ball park.
So what thickness does the mylar of the bass panels have ??? because this shows it more near 6 micron then the claimed 3 micron. also are the mid pannels of thinner mylar???
its coated on one side only , there is no reason to coat it on both sides, there are no connections to the High voltage on the other side
I knew coating has graphite in it for 63, I didn't know they stopped coating both sides as Peter Walker mentioned in his patent. Original ESL has both sides coated with nylon, I assumed because their nylon wasn't available anymore they just switched to available graphite coating, but maybe they changed more.
but apparantly all panels on the internet has some sort of graphite or carbon black coating, since they are all blackish. nylon coating would be colourless ? i think. the coating comes off in flakes to if you rub the old menbrame togther (wrinkle it) only from one side.
well my pair is pretty early serial number 3787 from the more then 35000 made.
got some work ahead i presume , what a ****** to get all panels out, they thought they never be serviced i guess when they designed the thing. its complete terror all those clambs. ooh one major question to all that know the quad so well
It looks to me the stator plates are not coated with some sort of sealer , is this correct? because i can measure everywhere on the stator and have an ohm reading, there is no insulation at all. i think this is weird imaginge how much more voltage could be used if they where. or more reliable seen enough flashover spots
and another question about the stator plates, i dont see any deburing looks like they just punched all the holes is this correct ? i mean there is no small ring around every hole to prevent arcing.
well my pair is pretty early serial number 3787 from the more then 35000 made.
got some work ahead i presume , what a ****** to get all panels out, they thought they never be serviced i guess when they designed the thing. its complete terror all those clambs. ooh one major question to all that know the quad so well
It looks to me the stator plates are not coated with some sort of sealer , is this correct? because i can measure everywhere on the stator and have an ohm reading, there is no insulation at all. i think this is weird imaginge how much more voltage could be used if they where. or more reliable seen enough flashover spots
and another question about the stator plates, i dont see any deburing looks like they just punched all the holes is this correct ? i mean there is no small ring around every hole to prevent arcing.
I think now they use nylon again for most of the panels, but you could ask. Most produce 57&63 panels same time, so must use same coating, and most I read coat both sides, but maybe only with nylon which is available now (again)? Easier to do one side, so Quad might have simplified production because cheaper, Peter Walker wasn't really interested in production I also read, probably didn't care much if they produced it differently than original patent? There was some argument/discussion about coating both sides sometime, but what I remembered is that most found Peter Walkers both sides to be correct.
Copper side pcb is not at mylar side I remember vaguely, so pcb material is inbetween mylar and stator?
You can replace one panel, no need to remove all if just one needs service.
Copper side pcb is not at mylar side I remember vaguely, so pcb material is inbetween mylar and stator?
You can replace one panel, no need to remove all if just one needs service.
yeah well the copper is the stator in the end, i mean the egg crate is just support for that stator or electrode and for the film. still is weird to me it has not form of laquer on the outside, i know they got tha metal grid and the dustcover so for safety its not needed. but it could prevent arcing i believe. but i just wanted to know because my is not coated so if thats normal then all is fine 🙂 i know have to find a way to recoat them and most of all get same tension. planning on measuring them with another driver underneith so i can replicate there resonance perfectly. all the work 🙁
If you don't have service manual One Thing Audio has it under ESL63 information.
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Have fun, I never actually did replace Quad mylar, I opened one defective panel once to have a look and again took the car to Koblenz 🙂
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Have fun, I never actually did replace Quad mylar, I opened one defective panel once to have a look and again took the car to Koblenz 🙂
You should talk with Rob McKinley ate ER Audio in Australia - has experience of repairs to many different ESLs, I'd be surprised if he doesn't not know the Quad 63 family. He has repair kits for some ESLs, perhaps these too.
Yes, copper on outside of stator PCBs. Also recent Quads, at least, have coating over the copper. The effective thickness of PCB material is reduced by dielectric constant = 0.5 mm/3.4 approx. ~ 0.15mm, so does not affect field strength much.
regards
Rod
Yes, copper on outside of stator PCBs. Also recent Quads, at least, have coating over the copper. The effective thickness of PCB material is reduced by dielectric constant = 0.5 mm/3.4 approx. ~ 0.15mm, so does not affect field strength much.
regards
Rod
well i ordered the 3 micorn mylar and 6 just in case. i can use both in the future so.
now looking for a source of good coating licron prefered. the coating of ER has ,i here differend opinions and the coating of MT audio does not look verry nice to me. lookst like carbon black stuff. does not look like an even coating. im now drawing a Jig for reglueing the stator to cut on cnc later on, and a jig for pneumatic stretcher with a tire. with the option of putting the whole stretch jig on top of aa woofer to tune the menbrame for correct resonance frequency before glueing. only one panel at once... so i ahve to make more of these jigs as well. thank god i got the help of a small cnc
now looking for a source of good coating licron prefered. the coating of ER has ,i here differend opinions and the coating of MT audio does not look verry nice to me. lookst like carbon black stuff. does not look like an even coating. im now drawing a Jig for reglueing the stator to cut on cnc later on, and a jig for pneumatic stretcher with a tire. with the option of putting the whole stretch jig on top of aa woofer to tune the menbrame for correct resonance frequency before glueing. only one panel at once... so i ahve to make more of these jigs as well. thank god i got the help of a small cnc
All 63:s I've repaired had 6u mylar, clean film.
I have tried repairing panels with 3u film, but I think it tears too easy......😱
I have tried repairing panels with 3u film, but I think it tears too easy......😱
really ?
i think its so weird. indeed what i measured leans to 6 micron as well. but if i google Quad 63 allot of people saying 3 micron even someone mentioned 2 micron. wich i think is nearly impossible with the tension that i feel on a panel.
there is nothing mentioned in any service manuals either. well i got 3 micron on the way if i thinnk its not doable i will use 6, all electrostatics i made had 6 and sounded ok to me right to 20khz
funny that everyone on the net kinda of knows how it works with the quad63 but digging in, everyone is just doing something completlly blind so it seems (can still have good results ofcourse)
Hello,
I have ordered 3 microns in Mylar - tzeng_albert at ebay - I have weighed the mylar and found a double weight of 3 microns that I had before.
I have asked the question tzeng_albert which should send another Mylar 3 microns because he thinks an error.
I have repaired my 4 still pannels ESL 63, and found no difference in listening, (no time to make measurements), and much easier to stretch.
The coating MT audio works well, the Licron too.
I have ordered 3 microns in Mylar - tzeng_albert at ebay - I have weighed the mylar and found a double weight of 3 microns that I had before.
I have asked the question tzeng_albert which should send another Mylar 3 microns because he thinks an error.
I have repaired my 4 still pannels ESL 63, and found no difference in listening, (no time to make measurements), and much easier to stretch.
The coating MT audio works well, the Licron too.
well i got my 3 and 6 micron mylar
with 3 micron i had 5 failures one survived. im kind of thinking they did not use 3 micron at all. to be honest its almost imposible to stretch. even when using an tire stretch method. I measure the resonance frequency while stretching, and the 3 micron always fails on the right resonance or just below. (even have to aply coating so res will drop a little)
now i got one bass panel with 6 and a mid panel with 3. so i cant compare the 2 🙁 damned.. it is posible to compare an original bass with the 6 micron bass. maybe i hoop them up to a seperrate tranny to to measure them against each other
with 3 micron i had 5 failures one survived. im kind of thinking they did not use 3 micron at all. to be honest its almost imposible to stretch. even when using an tire stretch method. I measure the resonance frequency while stretching, and the 3 micron always fails on the right resonance or just below. (even have to aply coating so res will drop a little)
now i got one bass panel with 6 and a mid panel with 3. so i cant compare the 2 🙁 damned.. it is posible to compare an original bass with the 6 micron bass. maybe i hoop them up to a seperrate tranny to to measure them against each other
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I used 3.5 um mylar for mine, with no trouble. I used the technique recommended by Rob McKinley at ER audio (see ER Audio website). I stretched the mylar out on glass (an old shower door) using duct tape and a fishing scale to get the tension even. Then laid out the stator (with glue) over the top, with thin foam layer and timber spreader topped off with four large truck batteries for weights. I had one failure with my first trial on an ESL 63 stator, just careless though- finger nail or something - I cant remember. No problems with my large 4 stator sections 1100 mm x 400 mm ea.
Only very young people will be able to tell the difference between 3 um and 6 um. Cut off frequency (first order low pass) is approx. 100 kHz divided by mylar thickness. cf 28 kHz for 3.5 um and 16 kHz for 6 um.
best wishes
Rod
Only very young people will be able to tell the difference between 3 um and 6 um. Cut off frequency (first order low pass) is approx. 100 kHz divided by mylar thickness. cf 28 kHz for 3.5 um and 16 kHz for 6 um.
best wishes
Rod
thanks golfnut that calculation is verry helpfull. thre reason why i think people are able to stretch the 3 uM if because they never reach the stock resonance.
I really would like to know what resonance other members have on there original quad panel. half frame. so play a sweep from a normal speaker and measure as close as possible to the menbrame. there will be a peak. that peak is the resonance feq of the menbrame with one stator attached. addig the seccond stator changes everything ofcourse.
i cant get my 3um to that same frequency in the stretch jig, without breaking it im few hetz short
I really would like to know what resonance other members have on there original quad panel. half frame. so play a sweep from a normal speaker and measure as close as possible to the menbrame. there will be a peak. that peak is the resonance feq of the menbrame with one stator attached. addig the seccond stator changes everything ofcourse.
i cant get my 3um to that same frequency in the stretch jig, without breaking it im few hetz short
Hello,
to tender my mylar 3um I have used a small pot placed on a panel in good condition and filled the pot of spare money up to touch the PCB.
This pot serves as my reference for the other panels, I also used a dynamometer to measure the pressure on the PCB.
sb
to tender my mylar 3um I have used a small pot placed on a panel in good condition and filled the pot of spare money up to touch the PCB.
This pot serves as my reference for the other panels, I also used a dynamometer to measure the pressure on the PCB.
sb
thats an option as well. well with 6 micron its nohard to get it that far stretched, i made one by mistake 20 hetz higher 🙂 also when making the holes for the mounting of the other stator half the resonance will increase by 3 or 4 hetz. maybe not that big of a deal but funny to see
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