If midbass is all you care about, this will do it. But it won't play any of the low notes in your dubstep. I'm not even sure how low it will go, there's no frequency response range listed even on the CV website. If you don't mind missing all the low notes and really don't want to build something, this might be for you.
But if you build your own box you could absolutely kill this thing in every way possible (except maybe appearance) with the same budget.
As Charles Darwin should know, things have evolved since this driver was introduced. The LAB12 is no longer very impressive compared to newer drivers like the B&C you were originally looking at. The power handling is extremely low, and power handling is exactly what you want if you are interested in midbass.
I already told you, you don't need separate subs and midbass horns. You can't afford it even if you did need it. Pick a good sub and good mains and that's all you need. And it's not simple to set all that stuff up either, so unless you can measure frequency response and implement the proper delay for each channel, the simpler the better.
Not sure if I would call 400Wrms 'extremely low'.
Two per side would give you 800W capability and since they are made by Eminence in the US there shouldn't be that much to pay in shipping.
But in the end power handling doesn't matter if they exceed Xmax at that level.
What is very low though, besides the price, is the distortion. Do a search here because Art 'Weltersys' Welter tested them in a 2x12 at 800W. If I remember right they came out a fair bit better than quite expensive JBLs for example.
He has also published designs for simple ported boxes.
Two per side would give you 800W capability and since they are made by Eminence in the US there shouldn't be that much to pay in shipping.
But in the end power handling doesn't matter if they exceed Xmax at that level.
What is very low though, besides the price, is the distortion. Do a search here because Art 'Weltersys' Welter tested them in a 2x12 at 800W. If I remember right they came out a fair bit better than quite expensive JBLs for example.
He has also published designs for simple ported boxes.
Hi just a guy,
They should reach early 50Hz but the chamber is large enough to be converted into a bandpass system (for manoli337; conversion here means adding a reflex port that is tuned lower).
They should reach early 50Hz but the chamber is large enough to be converted into a bandpass system (for manoli337; conversion here means adding a reflex port that is tuned lower).
so now, considering all you said , witch MIdbass horn and witch sub is the best for me for 2000$ ?
thnaks
thnaks
Early on in the Keystone thread weltersys compared the LAB12 (x2) to a B&C driver and while the LAB12 got very hot the B&C did not.
Good point about xmax, but the OP seems primarily interested in midbass, and with a high tuning it isn't likely that he's going to need a whole lot of xmax, but he will need very high power handling.
I don't think distortion is going to matter much in this case. In fact the OP will probably like a fair bit of distortion, the "roller coaster feeling" in the club is probably made up of a huge amount of distortion. Many people that like the traditional "feel" of club bass will strongly prefer lots of distortion, and will prefer ported boxes to horns.
That would certainly void the warranty, which he is probably going to need when he blows up the cheap driver in this horn. Also, if he can't glue together a box, he probably can't add a port.
I've told you several times now you don't need a midbass horn, and you can't afford it.
The only thing I can really recommend for you is to not buy anything until you can at least read and understand the basic specs on a brochure and understand how to implement a system correctly (with proper high pass filters, eq and delay, etc).
You've got a lot of enthusiasm but if you can't explain what you want in technical terms you will probably disappointed with whatever you choose. When I was your age I was in the same situation and I was never really happy with any of my purchases.
If you can't even tell me how low your music goes and how much of the LF notes you are willing to miss out on, it's impossible to make any kind of recommendation.
30hz is great for my music and below this , it doesnt matters if i miss theses notes..
Can you get JBL GTO1214 cheaply?
One of those in a ~60L ported cabinet tuned to 30Hz will get down to the frequencies you want. For more volume, just add more subs. Start with two, and go from there. Remember - 2x12" is roughly the same as 1x18".
They should also play high enough to match up to some small-ish midrange speakers.
One of those in a ~60L ported cabinet tuned to 30Hz will get down to the frequencies you want. For more volume, just add more subs. Start with two, and go from there. Remember - 2x12" is roughly the same as 1x18".
They should also play high enough to match up to some small-ish midrange speakers.
That simple detail clears things up a lot. Unfortunately not many pre-built pro subs can do that, certainly not the two Cerwin Vega models that have been linked to here.
There are a bunch of diy subs tuned to 30 - 35 hz, but you have to make them yourself or have them built.
I'm not aware of any commercial subs that go this low that are anywhere close to your budget, maybe other people have some ideas. Or I can list a few diy designs if you can get them made somehow.
Ya give me sone idead could be nice , if easy or i an go make cut rhe pieces at home depot ... ... Just need to be c'ear and also i i but the top online , need to have the link ... Abd aldo the modelnor drivers .. 🙂
The Othorn tapped horn
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/232219-325-lab-12-based-pa-tapped-horn-35hz-extension.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
That should give you a few horn ideas, but to be clear the Othorn is the only one tuned at or below 30 hz, the rest are tuned a bit higher. That's a few of the horns that have been discussed here recently, I can probably find more if you want.
If you want a ported box it's very easy to design one for just about any driver you like. High power handling, high xmax and low Le are good things to look for in a driver for a project like this.
I have no idea what any of this means.
maybe a ported bo would be easier to buid..
🙂
and for the midbass , witch drivers ? can i have a link if i buy online the idrange or midbass(top)
My PPSL are very eay to build, no angled cuts.
PPSL is a design idea that can be done with any sized drivers, as long as you use an even number of drivers.
The link below uses Eminence 15's for a 35hz F3, fine for most music (especially dance music).
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/x-1.gif
I have done dual 18 PPSL and quad 12 PPSL. I am doing a quad 12 design that will be an 8Ω load and an F3=27hz with Dayton 295-120 (on sale for $74 each, and available in Canada). The box will be about 2' x 2' x 4' and about 100.5dB/W/1M. It will look a bit like this, but with the ports on the bottom (not the sides). Alternately you could do the ports as shown.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/1285269007.gif
.
PPSL is a design idea that can be done with any sized drivers, as long as you use an even number of drivers.
The link below uses Eminence 15's for a 35hz F3, fine for most music (especially dance music).
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/x-1.gif
I have done dual 18 PPSL and quad 12 PPSL. I am doing a quad 12 design that will be an 8Ω load and an F3=27hz with Dayton 295-120 (on sale for $74 each, and available in Canada). The box will be about 2' x 2' x 4' and about 100.5dB/W/1M. It will look a bit like this, but with the ports on the bottom (not the sides). Alternately you could do the ports as shown.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/1285269007.gif
.
I know you are a big advocate of PPSL but I've never read any of your threads. Can you tell me what PPSL stands for and why you like it?
I assume it's a tradeoff, like all alignments. I assume you use it to cancel driver distortion in exchange for a huge cavity resonance.
MJK limits his cavity depth to 8 or 9 inches in his folded OB designs to keep the cavity resonance outside the usable bandwidth, but making a cavity large enough to fit an 18 inch driver is going to put the huge resonance right inside the usable bandwidth. Maybe you can quickly explain the pros and cons in your design and why you can't just mount the drivers on either side of the box instead of in a cavity.
"I've never read any of your threads."
Easily remedied.
"Can you tell me what PPSL stands for "
"The push-pull slot-loading reduces distortion." post #23
There is no carity resonance to speak of in the units I have built. There is a port resonance that is way out of band. If you face both woofers into the slot there is a cavity resonance based on the depth of the slot, and it is generally out of band as well. I did have a fellow deliberately run one that way because he liked the cavity resonance and extra distortion (no accounting for taste I guess).
The alignment for the published PPSL is a textbook 6th order vented design, and represents the optimum balance between size, efficiency, and bass extension.
A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB).
A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB).
A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB).
If you expect the distortion canceling benefits to extend to the crossover point to the top box the drivers must be within 18th of a wavelength (2nd harmonic of the 1/4WL).
EV made a dual 15 PPSL crossed at 800hz, I don't recommend trying to get that kind of bandwidth out of 15's. Ohm Acoustics (UK) makes dual 12, 15, and 18 versions that look like clones of my designs. EAW, TAD, and now Cerwin Vega, all make co-planar versions without the slot. This limits the benefit of PP to the bottom octaves.
Les Hudson makes hi-fi versions that are crossed as high as 400hz for his dual 12 PPSL. He also has a dual 15 version, and a dual 8 version crossing over straight to a small HF horn (crossover frequency unknown).
Easily remedied.
"Can you tell me what PPSL stands for "
"The push-pull slot-loading reduces distortion." post #23
There is no carity resonance to speak of in the units I have built. There is a port resonance that is way out of band. If you face both woofers into the slot there is a cavity resonance based on the depth of the slot, and it is generally out of band as well. I did have a fellow deliberately run one that way because he liked the cavity resonance and extra distortion (no accounting for taste I guess).
The alignment for the published PPSL is a textbook 6th order vented design, and represents the optimum balance between size, efficiency, and bass extension.
A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB).
A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB).
A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB).
If you expect the distortion canceling benefits to extend to the crossover point to the top box the drivers must be within 18th of a wavelength (2nd harmonic of the 1/4WL).
EV made a dual 15 PPSL crossed at 800hz, I don't recommend trying to get that kind of bandwidth out of 15's. Ohm Acoustics (UK) makes dual 12, 15, and 18 versions that look like clones of my designs. EAW, TAD, and now Cerwin Vega, all make co-planar versions without the slot. This limits the benefit of PP to the bottom octaves.
Les Hudson makes hi-fi versions that are crossed as high as 400hz for his dual 12 PPSL. He also has a dual 15 version, and a dual 8 version crossing over straight to a small HF horn (crossover frequency unknown).
Last edited:
The cavity resonance issue has made PPSL a no go for me, that's why I've never spent any time reading about it. The only reason I'm asking about it now is because you are recommending it in a thread I'm involved in. I've never even simulated one, but I can remedy at least that much right now. But before I get into that, I'll admit there are a few other things that bother me about the concept.
1. Cavity resonance
2. Wasted space (the cavity)
3. Added complexity of build (this wouldn't matter if I could see any desirable benefit)
4. Driver distortion doesn't bother me so I personally wouldn't go to such lengths to avoid it
I found that very hard to believe so I simulated it.
Graph 1 - a random 18 inch driver in a typical ported box (not PPSL)
Graph 2 - same as Graph 1 but with a PPSL slot (10 x 18 inch area, 18 inch length)
Picture 3 - Hornresp inputs for the PPSL box
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now that I've simulated it I still find the "no resonances to speak of" claim hard to believe. I have to admit the resonance is higher in frequency than I would have guessed, and the huge resonance might actually be desirable in certain situations, but the huge resonance and the huge notch are distortion and will make crossing over to the mains problematic at best. You are trading driver distortion for cavity resonance distortion.
Personally I don't think a slot deeper than 8 or 9 inches is a good idea, and if possible avoiding the slot completely is preferable.
PS - making the cavity V shaped (or horn shaped) will push the resonance up to a higher frequency, and can also be used to make the cavity physically smaller (less wasted space). That's usually what I recommend for designs that rely on a cavity like H frame OB, and I guess PPSL too, although I'm not convinced the pros of PPSL design are worth the cons.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.