Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons?

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#42
doug20 said:
The measurements on the TD drivers from AE speakers are incredible.
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This is a good topic as the TD design was my creation to combine the best of pro and home ultra high end audio. 10 years ago I basically wanted a EV15 that could do 1.5" peak to peak of xmax with little to no power compression and cover 16Hz and up. Hence the TD series was born.

Most pro designs use large diameter voice coils with relatively shallow cones. This is a compromise to fit a smaller box like a scoop and to keep the driver as light weight as possible. It also makes a driver that doesn't sound as good in the midrange.

Most home audio drivers don't seem to be designed to handle the crazy constant high power like pro drivers, and are low sensitivity.

I found a design trick with the copper Faraday that allowed me to not only get lower distortion and incredible power handling from a smaller diameter voice coil, it also allowed the excursion to go as far as the suspension would allow. Tweek in the cone material and deeper curvilinear cone profile, and enjoy.

Really its a dollars worth of copper in that motor that makes all the difference to everything.
 
#43
The paradigm has shifted to the satellite/sub model, both for HT and music Hi-Fi. "Sub" in pro audio sound reinforcement means 40 Hz, but in studio monitors, it's lower, and more appropriate to home use. In any case, once we conceptualize the task as mid/high boxes plus sub(s), quality pro drivers have a distinct advantage.

In many respects, the objectives are the same, and the pros have done a better job of implementing the fundamental science of loudspeaker design....
 
#44
panomaniac said:


Yes. =)


Alas, no. Huge box. But ported it will be. (not finnished)

The Fs in in free air. One measures 18Hz, the other about 21Hz. I expect them to come down a little with break in. Or not.



Not at all. They are Altec 416-8A recently reconed at GPA. So not a common pro driver, but pro none the less.

As Rob points about above, there are some others with Fs this low. But it's not the norm today, which was Tom's point.

I do agree that there isn't much music down this low, so it's just a luxury. But there can be a lot of room tone way down there, and that can be fun to hear/feel.
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Thanks!
 
#45
woofman59 said:
A lot of the comments I've read on this thread sound like it's all about measurements. In my experience however, measurements are of course very important, but certainly not everything.

After all, the end result should be something that is pleasing to listen to since that's the reason for building them in the first place. I've heard more than a few speakers that had great measurements but didn't sound that good. Conversely, I've heard speakers that while not so impressive in measurements, actually sounded terrific.

Numbers and graphs are fine to point the way, but in the end, how do they sound?
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But we are talking about drivers here, drivers are put together in a design to make a great sounding speakers.

You need measurements to build a great speakers that you will like the sound of.

I have never met or read about anyone that builds speakers without any measurements. The time it takes to figure it all out is just not worth it when all the tools available helps experts out.

As for your point about liking a specific speaker, more or less you like a specific reponse. Why not build/buy the most accurate speakers then tweak it to your needs? You get the best distortion measurements, you get the best accuracy and you can choose to color it. If not its accurate. Maybe its the distortion part hat you like, many people actually like distortion (ie Tubes, domes vs Ribbons, etc). I like active designs because one 3-way active speaker can have the characteristics of many differnet speakers depending on my settings.

In the end I do not go out and listen for a specific sound, I would rather create the specific sound I want in my house and I start with the best measurements/specs possible within a target price range.

Im really confused on what the purpose of this forum is...is it not to build speakers, talk about measurements, talk about speaker design theory, find out about new drivers, etc.

Some posts have me believe they are here for another reason. Im just confused on the purpose and Im trying to figure that out.
 
#46
doug20 said:



Im really confused on what the purpose of this forum is...is it not to build speakers, talk about measurements, talk about speaker design theory, find out about new drivers, etc.

Some posts have me believe they are here for another reason. Im just confused on the purpose and Im trying to figure that out.
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This sort of attitude, you might as well get used to.

There are two camps here:

1) We accept the relevance of measurements and engineering.

2) We feel that 2+2 is 5, thus 2+2=5

If you want to steer clear of the worst part of it, ignore any thread with the word "cable" in the title 😀


Magura 🙂
 
#48
Magura said:



This sort of attitude, you might as well get used to.

There are two camps here:

1) We accept the relevance of measurements and engineering.

2) We feel that 2+2 is 5, thus 2+2=5

If you want to steer clear of the worst part of it, ignore any thread with the word "cable" in the title 😀


Magura 🙂
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Magura

I agree, but I think doug20 have some good points in his posts.

Cheers
 
#51
Measurement is about 70% of the testing for me, because it seldom tells the whole story.
There are cases where a speaker will measure similar but sounds completely different. Result is always in the listening IMHO.

Hearing how clean and effortless a B&C can reproduce sounds in its range is enough to convince most skeptic. If I had the space for a 3 way Pro system I would never have forked out so much $$ for my Revs.

regards
 
#52
http://www.zillaaudio.com/speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm

Having built many systems for home use - i am the kind of guy who sits between two speakers and listens critically - i feel both home and pro drivers can be used together to great effect. It's difficult to tell from the picture in the link but that's a pro Eminence 15" driver and a pro Eminence compression tweeter (using a small waveguide and a dunkin donuts coffee box) partnered with a home audio Fostex driver. There is also a home audio ACI subwoofer which has since been disconnected because it did not sound as good (to me) as the pro drivers costing one third their price. At this point in my hobby pro drivers interest me because of the sound they are capable of producing in a home setting. I enjoy the effortless power from the woofers and the crisp lifelike treble from the compression tweeters. But i also enjoy the clear mids from the Fostex full range driver although i am looking forward to hearing what some of the more extended pro drivers have to offer in the future. These are pretty inexpensive pro drivers too... they are built well and sound great in the ranges i choose to use them. It is frustrating when Fs is so high compared to home audio woofers but there are ways to equalize, attenuate and blend pro audio woofers (and tweeters) with home audio drivers and take advantage of both IMO.

Godzilla
 
#54
Magura said:



This sort of attitude, you might as well get used to.

There are two camps here:

1) We accept the relevance of measurements and engineering.

2) We feel that 2+2 is 5, thus 2+2=5

If you want to steer clear of the worst part of it, ignore any thread with the word "cable" in the title 😀


Magura 🙂
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Thanks, I was a lurker for a long time but having lots of DIY projects (all waveguide based) has forced me to become active. Generally the DIY section in other forums is very pro measurements and the discussions stay on the topic of system building, driver performance through measurements. Obviously the end results of "how does it sound" matters but to get there we have to go through the proper steps (Atleast I thought we did).

When I read some posts saying measurements shouldn't mean as much it had me wondering if this was a DIY loudspeaker forum or a general Loudspeaker forum.

Again thanks for the advice.
 
#56
I see no reason you can't mix Pro and HiFi. That's what I did with the project below. The Woofer is the Lambda TD12H, crossed passively to an open baffle mid, the B&C 6md38 at around 450hz, which is crossed passively to the Peerless HDS tweeter at around 2500hz, that sits in a shallow DIY waveguide. The shallow waveguide produces about a 5db boost centered around 3-4khz which acoustically counters the rising top end of the HDS and provides some directivity from around 2khz on up. The box is slot ported with an Fs of around 35hz or so. Pro does not have to mean big either. These are 42" wall, 16" at the bottom and 7" at the top. The Lexan baffle was to reduce their visual footprint.

The BaSSlines

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#57
doug20 said:
Thanks, I was a lurker for a long time but having lots of DIY projects (all waveguide based) has forced me to become active. Generally the DIY section in other forums is very pro measurements and the discussions stay on the topic of system building, driver performance through measurements. Obviously the end results of "how does it sound" matters but to get there we have to go through the proper steps (Atleast I thought we did).

When I read some posts saying measurements shouldn't mean as much it had me wondering if this was a DIY loudspeaker forum or a general Loudspeaker forum.

Again thanks for the advice.
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Hey Doug,

Glad to see you've given in to the dark side and endorsed measurements. As you know from my errrr... discussions with Thy, I'm a big believer too. 😉

But the guys have a point that you need to take measurements with a grain of salt. I firmly believe that everything can be measured but the 'art' comes in knowing what is important to measure and how to go about doing it. Should you emphasize on-axis flatness or emphasize what happens off axis? What's a good off-axis target curve? Should you gate your measurements so you're measuring the direct sound from the speaker or should you do them ungated so you include the room's contribution? If you measure distortion, is the 5th harmonic more important than the 2nd harmonic? How much weight should you give to all the different measurements as some correlate better with good sound than others. Etc., etc....
 
#58
I'm also attempting to mix pro woofers with a hi-fi top end. I'll be using a TD12S in a sealed bass bin up to 3-400hz, actively crossed to Jed's Lineup D44 (TB W4-1337 mids with a Vifa D26 in an MTM). These will be used as LCRs behind an AT screen.

I'm hoping I like these enough to not want to upgrade again for a long time. Of course there is always that little part of me that wants to try a ribbon tweeter............
 
#60
"When I read some posts saying measurements shouldn't mean as much it had me wondering if this was a DIY loudspeaker forum or a general Loudspeaker forum."

Hello Doug20

What makes you think everyone here has a measurement set-up?? I would not be the least bit surprised if some guys do it by ear. Geez the first speakers I ever built were done using a RTA. It took a while for me to get up the cash to get a decent test set-up. Funny thing was when I measured what I had built using the RTA it wasn't all that bad and the bottom line was they sounded good as well.

Rob🙂
 
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