Greetings, hey Godzilla is your MJK h frame standard depth, it maybe just the photo but it doesn't look 7.5 in depth on the front.
cheers fergs
cheers fergs
>>> Greetings, hey Godzilla is your MJK h frame standard depth, it maybe just the photo but it doesn't look 7.5 in depth on the front.
cheers fergs
http://www.zillaaudio.com/speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm
Hi fergs, good eye! i cheated and made them only 6" deep front and back. the width and height are to scale. my room is small so i like to gain an inch here and there when i can... (my BIBs are also slightly smaller scale than recommended) and i figured if i did not like the sound i could simply extend the walls on the H-frames. Everything sounds great. I am happy with the sound.
Godzilla
cheers fergs
http://www.zillaaudio.com/speakers-tweeter-woofer-bib.htm
Hi fergs, good eye! i cheated and made them only 6" deep front and back. the width and height are to scale. my room is small so i like to gain an inch here and there when i can... (my BIBs are also slightly smaller scale than recommended) and i figured if i did not like the sound i could simply extend the walls on the H-frames. Everything sounds great. I am happy with the sound.
Godzilla
Pro vs hifi drivers
PRO DIVERS ARE FAR SUPERIOR THAN HI-FI DRIVERS. THE ENGG INVOLVE IN DESIGNING THESE DRIVERS ARE VERY ADVANCED THAN HI-FI DRIVERS. STARTING FROM THE INNOVATIVE MOTOR STRUCTURE
DESIGN TO THE USE OF HI-QUALITY SOFT PARTS AND PRECISION WOUND COILS .... ETC.
EACH OF THIS ADD TO YEARS AND YEARS DEVELOPMENT WHICH GIVES BIRTH TO A PRO-DRIVER WHICH HAS AN IDENTITY FOR DECADES IN THE PRO-AUDIO INDUSTRY.
PRO DRIVERS FROM JBL AS THEIR 2206H,2226H.....
ELECTRO-VOICE DRIVERS..... DL10X, DL15X,EVX155....
FANE DRIVERS .....STUDIO 8M, 10M .......
THESE MODELS ARE KNOWS FOR THEIR GREAT REPUTATION
AND ARE KNOW FOR THEIR COUNTLESS CONTRIBUTION TO THE AUDIO INDUSTRY. THESE ARE JUST A FEW. MODELS I REFER TO, THERE ARE MANY MORE FROM BRANDS LIKE ..................................
RCF, EMINENCE,B&C,PAS,ALTEC,CELESTION,TAD,TANNOY,YAMAHA AND OTHERS HAVE THEIR LEGENDARY RANGE OF PRO-DRIVER THAT ARE TREND SETTERS TO THE AUDIO INDUSTRY.
.....
PRO AUDIO DOES NOT ONLY COUNT TO OPEN AIR OUTDOOR USE, THESE DRIVES ALSO PLAY A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN INDOOR USE AS REFERENCE MONITORS IN RECORDING STUDIOS AND LISTENING ROOM AND IN INDOOR LIVE SOUND AUDITORIUMS.
IN PRO SOUND A FINISHED LOUDSPEAKER BOX IS KNOWN FOR THE PARTICULAR DRIVER INSIDE. WHERE AS IN HI-FI A DRIVER HAS NO IDENTITY OF ITS OWN AND IF OFTEN SOURCED FROM OEM MANUFACTURER FROM CHINA, WITH SHINY METAL PARTS, PLASTIC CONES AND DECORATIVE TRIM RINGS ETC. THEY CONTRIBUTE IS VERY LESS TO THE SOUND MORE TOWARDS TO THE COSMETIC VALUE.
EVEN THE IN EXPENSIVE RANGE OF HI-BOXES 90% OF THE DRIVERS ARE SOURCED FROM ASIA (CHINA). NOW DAYS THE KEVLAR, CARBON FIBER CONE WOOFERS AND INJECTED CARBON GRAPHITE REINFORCED PLASTIC CONES DRIVES ARE FROM A,B,C ... MANUFACTURES FROM CHINA .
THEY DO NOT STAND TO THE QUALITY MARK TO THEIR EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS.
PRO DIVERS ARE FAR SUPERIOR THAN HI-FI DRIVERS. THE ENGG INVOLVE IN DESIGNING THESE DRIVERS ARE VERY ADVANCED THAN HI-FI DRIVERS. STARTING FROM THE INNOVATIVE MOTOR STRUCTURE
DESIGN TO THE USE OF HI-QUALITY SOFT PARTS AND PRECISION WOUND COILS .... ETC.
EACH OF THIS ADD TO YEARS AND YEARS DEVELOPMENT WHICH GIVES BIRTH TO A PRO-DRIVER WHICH HAS AN IDENTITY FOR DECADES IN THE PRO-AUDIO INDUSTRY.
PRO DRIVERS FROM JBL AS THEIR 2206H,2226H.....
ELECTRO-VOICE DRIVERS..... DL10X, DL15X,EVX155....
FANE DRIVERS .....STUDIO 8M, 10M .......
THESE MODELS ARE KNOWS FOR THEIR GREAT REPUTATION
AND ARE KNOW FOR THEIR COUNTLESS CONTRIBUTION TO THE AUDIO INDUSTRY. THESE ARE JUST A FEW. MODELS I REFER TO, THERE ARE MANY MORE FROM BRANDS LIKE ..................................
RCF, EMINENCE,B&C,PAS,ALTEC,CELESTION,TAD,TANNOY,YAMAHA AND OTHERS HAVE THEIR LEGENDARY RANGE OF PRO-DRIVER THAT ARE TREND SETTERS TO THE AUDIO INDUSTRY.
.....
PRO AUDIO DOES NOT ONLY COUNT TO OPEN AIR OUTDOOR USE, THESE DRIVES ALSO PLAY A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN INDOOR USE AS REFERENCE MONITORS IN RECORDING STUDIOS AND LISTENING ROOM AND IN INDOOR LIVE SOUND AUDITORIUMS.
IN PRO SOUND A FINISHED LOUDSPEAKER BOX IS KNOWN FOR THE PARTICULAR DRIVER INSIDE. WHERE AS IN HI-FI A DRIVER HAS NO IDENTITY OF ITS OWN AND IF OFTEN SOURCED FROM OEM MANUFACTURER FROM CHINA, WITH SHINY METAL PARTS, PLASTIC CONES AND DECORATIVE TRIM RINGS ETC. THEY CONTRIBUTE IS VERY LESS TO THE SOUND MORE TOWARDS TO THE COSMETIC VALUE.
EVEN THE IN EXPENSIVE RANGE OF HI-BOXES 90% OF THE DRIVERS ARE SOURCED FROM ASIA (CHINA). NOW DAYS THE KEVLAR, CARBON FIBER CONE WOOFERS AND INJECTED CARBON GRAPHITE REINFORCED PLASTIC CONES DRIVES ARE FROM A,B,C ... MANUFACTURES FROM CHINA .
THEY DO NOT STAND TO THE QUALITY MARK TO THEIR EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS.
Hunter,welcome to the DIYaudio forum. You will find that we have very good hearing here and caps lock is not needed🙂
Good thread. Ruggedness, power handling, consistancy, proper manufacturer's specs, lack of thermal compression, sensitivity, max spl, dynamic range are why I like pro drivers especially in 15" woofers which are rare in hifi speakers. I also feel that I am not spending too much on cosmetics, and hopefully none on snake oil or fashion.
But in a domestic enviroment depending on what kind of guy/girl you are, they may not be the best choice in all cases. If you sometimes like the feeling of the music sounding really loud (distorted) your amp may clip before you get that sound. Speakers than can take the power and remain clean don't seem to sound "louder" the sound just gets more and more powerfull until the windows rattle plaster falls neighbours complain or your ears get damaged. I have heard many low spl systems that can really rock out. Another strategy is to use pro drivers with a low powered tube amp and enjoy the sound of it going into overdrive which does take me back to the parties I enjoyed back in the 60s. 😀
But in a domestic enviroment depending on what kind of guy/girl you are, they may not be the best choice in all cases. If you sometimes like the feeling of the music sounding really loud (distorted) your amp may clip before you get that sound. Speakers than can take the power and remain clean don't seem to sound "louder" the sound just gets more and more powerfull until the windows rattle plaster falls neighbours complain or your ears get damaged. I have heard many low spl systems that can really rock out. Another strategy is to use pro drivers with a low powered tube amp and enjoy the sound of it going into overdrive which does take me back to the parties I enjoyed back in the 60s. 😀
Hey all
Thanks to those great comments on my speakers.
One thing that I think is missing in this discussion is thermal modulation. A pro speaker is always going to be better in this regard than a hi-fi speaker because it has to be built for good thermal performance. This is not going to be a significant factor at low playback levels, but it will be dominate at higher palyback level. Efficiency plays into this as well. I've never liked Hi-Fi speakers, but when I was doing home theater I found out that hi-fi speakers simply could not do HT. Thats because the effects and stuff in movies are way way louder than we tend to listen to background music. SO this brought out the serious failing of Hi-Fi speakers in this application. That's precisely why I did the Summa line of speakers, because I wanted HI-Fi sound, but I had to have Pro level thermal handling at higher SPLs.
Pro speakers got a well deserved bad name some years ago because they almost always (if not always) used horns. Older horns were, let's face it, terrible. We did not listen to them because of their "smoothness" or "low coloration", we listened to them because of their dynamics and we lived with the sickly sound quality. But today that's changed. Have you ever heard a modern well designed waveguide next to and older horn? Well I have and let me tell you there is simply no comparison. So these days we can have superb dynamics AND Hi-Fi sound quality all in the same package. Whats not to like?
And to Doug20 - a good system design is far more than just some parts. You can't just buy a set of "similar" parts and expect a comparable system to just "happen" out of this. There is a lot of work and skill, knowledge and experince in a truely competent design and parts don't include any of that.
Thanks to those great comments on my speakers.
One thing that I think is missing in this discussion is thermal modulation. A pro speaker is always going to be better in this regard than a hi-fi speaker because it has to be built for good thermal performance. This is not going to be a significant factor at low playback levels, but it will be dominate at higher palyback level. Efficiency plays into this as well. I've never liked Hi-Fi speakers, but when I was doing home theater I found out that hi-fi speakers simply could not do HT. Thats because the effects and stuff in movies are way way louder than we tend to listen to background music. SO this brought out the serious failing of Hi-Fi speakers in this application. That's precisely why I did the Summa line of speakers, because I wanted HI-Fi sound, but I had to have Pro level thermal handling at higher SPLs.
Pro speakers got a well deserved bad name some years ago because they almost always (if not always) used horns. Older horns were, let's face it, terrible. We did not listen to them because of their "smoothness" or "low coloration", we listened to them because of their dynamics and we lived with the sickly sound quality. But today that's changed. Have you ever heard a modern well designed waveguide next to and older horn? Well I have and let me tell you there is simply no comparison. So these days we can have superb dynamics AND Hi-Fi sound quality all in the same package. Whats not to like?
And to Doug20 - a good system design is far more than just some parts. You can't just buy a set of "similar" parts and expect a comparable system to just "happen" out of this. There is a lot of work and skill, knowledge and experince in a truely competent design and parts don't include any of that.
I agree, although I love my Altec 15" woofers I could never get a seemless match to my collection of Altec compression drivers and horns. I even made a tractrix fibre glass horn, better but still colored. I would love to hear your speakers.gedlee said:
hello everyone.
without going into technical terms🙄
as a studio engineer and a live sound engineer i must say in my opinion
hifi drivers are more detailed and accurate.
pro drivers are more reliable and can take a beating.
in our days the pro drivers technology improved tremendously.
i heard a few JBL and EV systems that sounded absolutely amazing.
but...
the bottom line in my experience is that pro drivers do not produce
the same quality and accuracy you'll get from a hifi driver.
i don't care what Fs xMax Vas or other parameters they have.
i know what i hear!
the top pro driver is no match in quality to the top hifi driver.
same as a top hifi driver wouldn't be able to handle half the stress a standard pro driver takes in his lifetime.
unbelievably terrible!
without going into technical terms🙄
as a studio engineer and a live sound engineer i must say in my opinion
hifi drivers are more detailed and accurate.
pro drivers are more reliable and can take a beating.
in our days the pro drivers technology improved tremendously.
i heard a few JBL and EV systems that sounded absolutely amazing.
but...
the bottom line in my experience is that pro drivers do not produce
the same quality and accuracy you'll get from a hifi driver.
i don't care what Fs xMax Vas or other parameters they have.
i know what i hear!
the top pro driver is no match in quality to the top hifi driver.
same as a top hifi driver wouldn't be able to handle half the stress a standard pro driver takes in his lifetime.
unbelievably terrible!
I absolutely agree with you. This weekend, I just did that. I was able to buy a Crate BE215 Bass Guitar cabinet. It has 2 15" woofers with no passive crossover. Really cheap too at $50.00. Works great. I just had to rewire them for stereo operation. They were connected in parallel. I used a separate amp to drive these woofers with the treble control at minimum setting. My other speaker is a modified Bose 901. Turned backwards so all 8 drivers are facing the front. I also removed the heavy cloth covering them. In addition to that i'm also using a BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer for clearer sound and tighter bass. OMG after initial test, the sound was magniificent, unbelievable. The 901's array helped dispersed the sound all around me. Don't even have to sit in the middle. 901's also have excellent mid range, perfect for vocals. BBE clarified the highs--not just ssss. The woofers are great. Tight bass sounded natural compared to my Klipsch subwoofer. Felt like I was in a club. Don't get me wrong, I don't have to blast the volume to get full sound. But it is just fun sometimes. Over do it and have a head ache. This is the sound that I've always wanted. I almost bought a JBL JRX 115. But just worried that the horn is gonna be too loud and very directional and won't sound good in a normal size room. I had a very nice weekend. Next weekend again.Godzilla said:
art64 said:
Notwithstanding that JRX uses the $9.90 EconoWaveguide and dispersion would not be an issue, as Earl's measurements have shown, I doubt they'd sound as good as something you could build with them yourself, as now over 50 AudioKarma members have done:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
I think its quite simple really,
Have a look at the way the brochures for Pro drivers like 18 Sound are arranged.
The are categorised and classed according to very specific applications and power levels. Some are specifially designed for certain roles like outside weather conditions. As a rule pro drivers have non flat reponses that Peak with a rising response around 1 khertz.
In contrast a hi fi driver is a lot more of a generalist item in terms of woofer, mid and tweeter.
Typically they (are engineered) to ensure the box is of a certain size and the response is of a set criteria over a certain bandwidth.
As such they tend to be smaller diameter and lowish sensitivity and have relatively smooth "flat" on axis response. It is often the norm now to see woofers engineered to work with a known tweeter and this means a two way system.
In terms of sheer engineering most Pro woofers do not offer extended LF responses like that of a hifi woofers because they are engineered for much higher sensitivity often around 97-100 db. To offer a suitable LF response for Hifi applciations would been massive enclosures and sacrifices in sensitivity.
Have a look at the way the brochures for Pro drivers like 18 Sound are arranged.
The are categorised and classed according to very specific applications and power levels. Some are specifially designed for certain roles like outside weather conditions. As a rule pro drivers have non flat reponses that Peak with a rising response around 1 khertz.
In contrast a hi fi driver is a lot more of a generalist item in terms of woofer, mid and tweeter.
Typically they (are engineered) to ensure the box is of a certain size and the response is of a set criteria over a certain bandwidth.
As such they tend to be smaller diameter and lowish sensitivity and have relatively smooth "flat" on axis response. It is often the norm now to see woofers engineered to work with a known tweeter and this means a two way system.
In terms of sheer engineering most Pro woofers do not offer extended LF responses like that of a hifi woofers because they are engineered for much higher sensitivity often around 97-100 db. To offer a suitable LF response for Hifi applciations would been massive enclosures and sacrifices in sensitivity.
Ya. The Klipsch 12" powered subwoofer produces more low freq than these 2 15 inchers guitar bass woofers. The cabinet on these woofers are small. Also the woofers themselves do not have foam surrounds. They use paper which makes them stiff and makes the bass tight. Before I was just using the Klipsch with the 901's. The sound lacked the punch of mid bass. It's high freq, mid and low 120 hz and below. Now with the bass cab, I have more definition on the sound. More punch that can be felt. I spent most of the weekend listening to my cd's. New and old music, pop to rock, some classical, vocals. No hip hop yet. Maybe next weekend.
So how much of the clarity and detail advantage HiFi speakers have is lost if the listener is not seated in the sweet spot in a critical listening position? Most of the time I listen to music I'm moving around and doing things. I am going to build a pair of Aiko with the FE108EnabledZ drivers for relaxed seated critical listening but that is another topic altogether.
Different types of listening, as with motorcycles and girlfriends, requires you to have more than one depending on your mood or the activity taking place.
Art64, turn on your email please, I have a couple of questions to ask you about your 901 experience.
Different types of listening, as with motorcycles and girlfriends, requires you to have more than one depending on your mood or the activity taking place.
Art64, turn on your email please, I have a couple of questions to ask you about your 901 experience.
>>> Different types of listening, as with motorcycles and girlfriends, requires you to have more than one depending on your mood or the activity taking place.
I agree! I listen differently at work than i do at home... or in the backyard. Also wife and girlfriend serve different purposes.
I agree! I listen differently at work than i do at home... or in the backyard. Also wife and girlfriend serve different purposes.
901Fixer said:
Email turned on. 901 at first wasn't good. I was afraid to mess
with it cause its expensive. But after 24 years of owning
it and knowledge gained, I started to tinker with it. I want to see if there is really something extra ordinary in these speaker.
Godzilla said:
Yes, but as with wifes and girlfriends, its not out of the question to have a single set of loudspeakers that covers all the bases. In both cases its far less expensive!
With regards to what being said about peakiness and Bandwidth limitations, here are example of drivers that could work in home applications with great results.
from woofer from Beyma
http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/out/oxbaseshop/html/1/text_pdf/BEY-1100134.pdf
Tweeter also from Beyma
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/TPL150HE.pdf
comes with and without horn lense
and there are dozens of mids 6-10" from various manufacturers( BMS, Eminence, B&C, 18Sound, Failal Pro, Ciare etc) with similar performances level to use as mid.
regards
from woofer from Beyma
http://www.hifisound.de/oxid/out/oxbaseshop/html/1/text_pdf/BEY-1100134.pdf
Tweeter also from Beyma
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/TPL150HE.pdf
comes with and without horn lense
and there are dozens of mids 6-10" from various manufacturers( BMS, Eminence, B&C, 18Sound, Failal Pro, Ciare etc) with similar performances level to use as mid.
regards
May I pose it this way....
I think the original question aspired to get a little dialogue open between pro driver users and "hi-fi" driver users (adherants?). Adherant is a reasonable description since it is likely that the strongest opinions will emerge from those with a reflexive opinion about 'superiority'. But it really ought to be more apples and oranges, shouldn't it?
Is it reasonable to say, at the very least, that pro drivers are designed and
marketed for the purpose of addressing the demands of large venues, and 'hi-fi', likewise, for small venues? Earlier in their separation into alternative applicactions, it was simpler to make the distinction. But as has been pointed out here, both 'demands' have evolved. Technical advances have enabled large venue (pro) transducers to achieve accuracy, and home theater installations have encouraged the development of higher spl 'hi-fi' transducers. Naturally there is emerging more and more overlap and (evidently) questions about that overlap.
I wonder if anyone has showed up at any of the DIY events with a Geddes Nathan or Harper to blind test amidst the range of otherwise hi-fi constituted boxes in attendance? Especially since it gets more to the heart of the question. The equipment drivng the speakers in attendance at these events is typically that which would be used for 'hi-fi' and home theater instead of working the crowd at a large bar or concert arena.
Defo asked...
What is it exacly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?
Except for more bass in a smaller enclosure..
I'm only presuming that the question was not so naively put that the Defo would suggest any comparison using scan speak or peerless drivers onstage with metallica. C'mon. The question, I think anyway, is whether there is any useful, technical, real-world evidence that they have proven superior to pro drivers in a "small" venue. I was really hoping that the thread would stay closer to that.
There are likely others out there, but Geddes' (pro driver) designs seem to fit the bill for this thread pretty well. Just what would likely be the verdict at that imaginary DIY meet I suggested above?
I think the original question aspired to get a little dialogue open between pro driver users and "hi-fi" driver users (adherants?). Adherant is a reasonable description since it is likely that the strongest opinions will emerge from those with a reflexive opinion about 'superiority'. But it really ought to be more apples and oranges, shouldn't it?
Is it reasonable to say, at the very least, that pro drivers are designed and
marketed for the purpose of addressing the demands of large venues, and 'hi-fi', likewise, for small venues? Earlier in their separation into alternative applicactions, it was simpler to make the distinction. But as has been pointed out here, both 'demands' have evolved. Technical advances have enabled large venue (pro) transducers to achieve accuracy, and home theater installations have encouraged the development of higher spl 'hi-fi' transducers. Naturally there is emerging more and more overlap and (evidently) questions about that overlap.
I wonder if anyone has showed up at any of the DIY events with a Geddes Nathan or Harper to blind test amidst the range of otherwise hi-fi constituted boxes in attendance? Especially since it gets more to the heart of the question. The equipment drivng the speakers in attendance at these events is typically that which would be used for 'hi-fi' and home theater instead of working the crowd at a large bar or concert arena.
Defo asked...
What is it exacly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?
Except for more bass in a smaller enclosure..
I'm only presuming that the question was not so naively put that the Defo would suggest any comparison using scan speak or peerless drivers onstage with metallica. C'mon. The question, I think anyway, is whether there is any useful, technical, real-world evidence that they have proven superior to pro drivers in a "small" venue. I was really hoping that the thread would stay closer to that.
There are likely others out there, but Geddes' (pro driver) designs seem to fit the bill for this thread pretty well. Just what would likely be the verdict at that imaginary DIY meet I suggested above?
Last edited:
Another consideration is that what are called pro drivers are also intended for mobile sound reinforcement applications.
The economics of the p.a. business dictate that you need to get the most sound from the least space, and since the bass takes up by far the most space this becomes the most bass from the least space.
This also leads to the fact that most of these systems use a 60Hz. region punch peak instead of real low bass extension.
You will find that many, (ones made by jbl for instance), pro fifteen inch woofers fit exactly into two filter assisted reflex alignments, ie. the QB5 I & II sorts.
The II alignments optimize power handling and if the driver resonance is twice the lower cut of then
used in such an alignment the full voice coil and excursion power limits of the driver can be used. If you use the class I type of alignment, the cut off goes down an octave, but then the excursion limit sets in and you must reduce the power input by quite a lot,(this is a thing that it is very difficult for the average p.a. tec to be convinced of, and this gives the re-coning industry much work).
An advantage of the QB5II is that the box without the filter has a “punch” peak so you can use the filter in the mic. Input, and a rumble filter in the music channel, (this doesn't need more power input as equalisation would).
The above feature is good for things like p.a. hire because you only need one bass driver to fill the roles of 60Hz. cut-off driver for a pole box, and subwoofer box that can be used for wideband music applications.
Rcw.
The economics of the p.a. business dictate that you need to get the most sound from the least space, and since the bass takes up by far the most space this becomes the most bass from the least space.
This also leads to the fact that most of these systems use a 60Hz. region punch peak instead of real low bass extension.
You will find that many, (ones made by jbl for instance), pro fifteen inch woofers fit exactly into two filter assisted reflex alignments, ie. the QB5 I & II sorts.
The II alignments optimize power handling and if the driver resonance is twice the lower cut of then
used in such an alignment the full voice coil and excursion power limits of the driver can be used. If you use the class I type of alignment, the cut off goes down an octave, but then the excursion limit sets in and you must reduce the power input by quite a lot,(this is a thing that it is very difficult for the average p.a. tec to be convinced of, and this gives the re-coning industry much work).
An advantage of the QB5II is that the box without the filter has a “punch” peak so you can use the filter in the mic. Input, and a rumble filter in the music channel, (this doesn't need more power input as equalisation would).
The above feature is good for things like p.a. hire because you only need one bass driver to fill the roles of 60Hz. cut-off driver for a pole box, and subwoofer box that can be used for wideband music applications.
Rcw.
Who cares which market the product was originally designed for? Does it work well in your intended application or not?
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