doug20 said:
I can clearly understand why it doesn't make sense to you if you don't even understand the meaning of "accurate and detailed". Do you actually listen to speakers?
The question of the original poster did not sound very 'scientific' to me, therefore my answer start with "I guess", but I will remember to ask you first, next time, if I may respond to someones question. 🙄
doug20 said:
Yes I've said that myself in the sentence before the QUESTION I've asked Theo404, you distorted my question to imply something that I never said.
doug20 said:
I take it you are talking about hi-fi speakers, any names perhaps?
Andre Visser said:
I do both, I listen and measure...You do not measure so your subjective listening experience is tainted with BIAS and your opinion would be invalid when we are talking about the true performance of any driver. For all you know you might like distortions and inaccurate drivers because you posted that you have little scientific knowledge and it sounds like you never measure anything.
This is DIY where speakers are built based on measurements and science...listening is just a part of the equation. You can not post opinion just becuase you think you have a golden ear 😱
I thought everything here is sceintific. Again, people BUILD speakers .....Its call DIY Audio. I didnt know I joined a crazy non-scientific forum like stereophile.com
I didnt think I distorted anything, if I did sorry!
Do you measure drivers?
Do you understand how drivers are built?
As for speaker names...JBL K2, Geddes Summas, Anything Tom Danley makes (Have you heard those? If I could only get a new demo pair (SH-mini) in house!!! ), Many Genelec speakers...the list is pretty big.
I would take them over any boutique hi-fi speaker that does not measure as well meaning they suck for the performance I require. My HT theater demands the best speakers!
amiklos said:
Many are building HT speakers with pro-audio drivers these days.
AE speakers has some of the best pro audio woofers around (like the TD series), I believe they are better then any other options in the same price range, I do not know of a 8" or 6" driver that can come even close to the TD12M or TD12S performance.
btw, what was the clear winner for you? Could you name the products demoed?
I want to get the Danely SH-100 or SH-mini in house but I can not find a local dealer and no response back with I emailed Danley. I have cust DIY speakers with (Neopro5i, PHL1120, TD12S) I want to see how the Danley designs compare...I also have NHT speakers, AV123 speakers and older PSB speakers. None of them come close to my custom DIY speakers in terms of dynamics and details but none of them have ribbon tweeters either.
doug20 said:
Who said that I do not measure? You are clearly only looking for an argument.
Oh, I like distortions and inaccurate drivers, I will ask Seas to improve their Excel range because you say so.
doug20 said:
Oh sorry my fault, I was under the impression DIY stand for Do It Yourself, glad to hear everybody here are scientists and engineers.
doug20 said:
It seems like logic isn't part of being 'scientific', perhaps that explain your attitude.
doug20 said:
Well you claimed that I've said something that I never did!
doug20 said:
No, not yet, I've bought drivers from a company with respectable spec sheets (decided on after listening to several others), which I've used to design my boxes and crossovers. Strangely, the overall speaker response and phasing measure very well and on top of that it sound quite realistic.
doug20 said:
Uhmm, I've seen a few pictures yes. 🙄
doug20 said:
I have listened to one of those brands yes, I will not swop my speakers for theirs.
doug20 said:
We were actually talking about hi-fi, not home theatre. 😱
point by point response, yikes!!....okay you win 😱
Okay, you think this is only bout music have you read about Geddes Summas? You read about he measurements and the performance....give me a hi-fi speaker that does what they do. They are pro-audio designs.
As for the person wanting to argued I never posted false information about pro audio drivers saying their are heavier then hi-fi...you did and I called you on it asking for some valid proof.
If you can not back up your bold statement with proof I would suggest you not post it in the first place. No arguements needed just proof would be welcome.
DIY does have sciences to it and with that if you are going to post BOLD statements about how hifi drives are superior to pro audio please back up that subjective opinion with specs and measurements. I always love to learn something new but at this point, depending on the requirements pro audio drivers are better.
Hifi / Home Theater......there is a difference? 😱
There are non-hi fi drivers out there....Seas drivers are not used in Home Theater??? Stop being so exlusionary and expand you mind.
Okay, you think this is only bout music have you read about Geddes Summas? You read about he measurements and the performance....give me a hi-fi speaker that does what they do. They are pro-audio designs.
As for the person wanting to argued I never posted false information about pro audio drivers saying their are heavier then hi-fi...you did and I called you on it asking for some valid proof.
If you can not back up your bold statement with proof I would suggest you not post it in the first place. No arguements needed just proof would be welcome.
DIY does have sciences to it and with that if you are going to post BOLD statements about how hifi drives are superior to pro audio please back up that subjective opinion with specs and measurements. I always love to learn something new but at this point, depending on the requirements pro audio drivers are better.
Hifi / Home Theater......there is a difference? 😱
There are non-hi fi drivers out there....Seas drivers are not used in Home Theater??? Stop being so exlusionary and expand you mind.
Everything evolves. ProAudio may have started out aiming to be efficient and rugged but along the way as improvements are made their accuracy and detail can be improved without affecting their main goal.
I have a pair of Selenium 15PW3-SLF 15" woofers, 98dB efficient and sound wonderful thru the volume range and can really hammer with only ~85watts per.
I have a pair of Selenium 15PW3-SLF 15" woofers, 98dB efficient and sound wonderful thru the volume range and can really hammer with only ~85watts per.
901Fixer said:
The measurements on the TD drivers from AE speakers are incredible.
Someone else posted something about ragged response but I do not see that in some of the recent pro offerings.
I think its great to have 95dB speakers, small amps and the ability to hit 120dB is important to me.
Im not a 2-channel critical listener that sits in a middle of a room with two speakers in front of me...that is not remotely my world.
To be more exact: In the beginning there was no difference between pro and HiFi. The started to evolve in different directions during the fifties approx.
There was demand for compact speakers delivering as much of the audio spectrum. This was at the cost of efficiency. Since there is (usually !!!) not much demand for high SPLs in a domestic environment the average listener could live with that.
Many modern PA drivers are of high quality nowadays. You can build high quality home systems with these and take advantage of the fact that you (usually !!!) run them at power levles that makes them barely move. Therefore they sound very effortless and dynamic. I have a system that I listen to once in a whil and which is great fun to crank. It uses a 12" JBLK woofer and bi-radial tweeter. But it is definitely larger than my other system that I use mostly.
The main disadvantage of using PA drivers is indeed the system size (specially when you want to go low) - here the usual HiFi systems have their advantage. Remember that it doesn't make sense to listen to hugeh systems close-up in small rooms. Driver integration would be much bettter with a small system using typical HiFi drivers.
Regards
Charles
Defo said:
doug20 said:
The winner was the Nathan 10 using B&C drivers. Other loudspeakers used in this space were B&W 805 and CM2, Thiel CS2, and some RBH bookshelf speakers. My hifi experiences in other spaces have included a litany of others from Avalon Acoustics Radians to Wilson Grand Slams (not quite A to Z).
There is certainly a lot more to Earl's designs than just the use of pro drivers, but there is such a clear advantage in my opinion w/ regard to dynamics that I don't ever see myself resorting to hifi drivers again. These speakers changed my definition of "rocking".
I'm hoping to play with some more waveguide/pro-woofer combos in the future. I've got some QSC waveguides on my workbench and the TD15M is looking pretty appealing.
phase_accurate said:
Good post!
Size is a concern for some but some of us like 12" woofers, it takes me back to the 70s and 80s 😀
I also dont care for full range speakers since I have a couple of good sub system to handle everything below 80Hz but your point highlights that Pro audio drivers can be incredible depending on the requirements.
amiklos said:
Very good, I havent read opinion wrt to the Nathans since the Summas get all the attention.
I have All the QSC waveguides (122i, 152i, 153i), the QSC drivers too....I also own the TD12Ms and Im almost ready to buy the Faital Pros. I will have 3 sets of waveguide designs by the fall, maybe a couple with the Hypex amps/DSPs
Im hoping these designs come close to what Geddes offers.
Tom Danley said:
I'm staring at a pair right now! =) But I will admit, they are unusual. Low Fs in not common in pro drivers. Tom's point is valid.
I tend to like pro drivers, but have heard some very nice "hi-fi" drivers, too.
901fixer. Glad to know you like your Selenium 15". I had a pair of the same that I liked a lot. Nice driver. One got crushed when I moved.
doug20 said:
Critical listening is another activity all together. I guess it comes down to the specifications and performance regardless of what category it is in. A hi fi driver may become more efficient and rugged or a ProAudio driver may become more accurate and detailed all the while still doing what they originally do.
I use the 15PW3's in a large (25' x 25') living room and listen to them standing up and walking around, sometimes in other rooms for awhile etc. Even a hi fi system with a sweet spot would not sound as perfect if I am moving around.
panomaniac said:
I'm staring at a pair right now! =) But I will admit, they are unusual. Low Fs in not common in pro drivers. Tom's point is valid.
901fixer. Glad to know you like your Selenium 15". I had a pair of the same that I liked a lot. Nice driver. One got crushed when I moved.
Very good point and this was discussed in the Woofer vs SubWoofer thread. I don't consider 20hz to be musical or much below 40hz for that matter. I do believe pipe organ music may delve into this region but alas I don't listen to is as much these days. HT and Automotive has pushed the audio world to use subwoofers and seek the lower frequencies that most music never gets to.
The Seleniums are perfect for OB or a large vented enclosure like I am building. 6 cuft with a 25 sq in vent, 1.58" long. I'm still experimenting with them, placement, direction of woofer, crossover point, etc. I only have one built and working but it really fills in where the 901's begin to fail. I hope they can keep up when I get the second one into service.
Sorry to hear one of yours got crushed.
I wonder where the image of Hifi drivers being more "accurate" comes from. Is it the marketing that needed to give these speakers an edge? (And no, i dont think one can even define this term in some quantifiable way.)
Hello Panomaniac
"Originally posted by Tom Danley
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz."
The only exception I know of are the 15" JBL 2235 and 18" 2245 both with an FS of 20hz. Both can be used as subwoofer drivers although both need large vented boxes say 4.5 cubic ft for the 2235 and 8 cubic ft for the 2245. They also worked guite well in the 80's vintage monitors. 4355/4344/4345/4430. They are not rugged enough to compete with the newer SR drivers but they can work well at home.
Me I use mostly Pro drivers. You set them up right and you won't be disappointed.
Hello Mavo
"I wonder where the image of Hifi drivers being more "accurate" comes from. Is it the marketing that needed to give these speakers an edge? (And no, i dont think one can even define this term in some quantifiable way.)"
Back in the 50's the Pro drivers were the best of the best. You wanted Altec/JBL/Ev etc. Somewhere along the road that changed although I don't understand why. I would think marketing had a hand in it. If you go by bass response an old AR cabinet is going to kill it's Pro contemporaries. Figure maybe 50-60 hz out of an 8 cubic ft box or a solid 30hz from 1.5-2 cubic ft.
What would you want in your livingroom or more importantly your spouse??
Rob 🙂
"Originally posted by Tom Danley
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz."
The only exception I know of are the 15" JBL 2235 and 18" 2245 both with an FS of 20hz. Both can be used as subwoofer drivers although both need large vented boxes say 4.5 cubic ft for the 2235 and 8 cubic ft for the 2245. They also worked guite well in the 80's vintage monitors. 4355/4344/4345/4430. They are not rugged enough to compete with the newer SR drivers but they can work well at home.
Me I use mostly Pro drivers. You set them up right and you won't be disappointed.
Hello Mavo
"I wonder where the image of Hifi drivers being more "accurate" comes from. Is it the marketing that needed to give these speakers an edge? (And no, i dont think one can even define this term in some quantifiable way.)"
Back in the 50's the Pro drivers were the best of the best. You wanted Altec/JBL/Ev etc. Somewhere along the road that changed although I don't understand why. I would think marketing had a hand in it. If you go by bass response an old AR cabinet is going to kill it's Pro contemporaries. Figure maybe 50-60 hz out of an 8 cubic ft box or a solid 30hz from 1.5-2 cubic ft.
What would you want in your livingroom or more importantly your spouse??
Rob 🙂
doug20 said:
Perhaps we understand English differently, let me try and explain what I meant.
The question were: "Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons? What is it exacly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?"
A pretty broad question I would say, comparing hi-fi vs pro.
My response: "I guess the demands on hi-fi drivers are much lower, that may allow for lighter cones and voice coils which in turn may result in more accurate and detailed sound."
Firstly when someone say "I guess" there are NO "bold statements" that can follow.
Next, there are different design criteria for hi-fi drivers and pro drivers. Talking about designing pro drivers, I would say things like high-power, high SPL and ruggedness would be much higher on the priority list while hi-fi drivers may be designed to operate in smaller and less demanding environments, allowing to optimise the drivers more for SQ. I've said that MAY allow for lighter cones and voice coils which MAY result in more accurate and detailed sound. No BOLD statements.
doug20 said:
I've never claimed the one to be superior to the other, both are optimised to operate in different conditions.
Like you say, DEPENDING on the requirements. The original question were "what is it exactly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?". From that I would guess we are talking about a hi-fi system in a home setup.
doug20 said:
Yes, to me quite a large difference, NORMAL HT systems are optimised for reproducing movie soundtracks while hi-fi should be optimised for realistic music reproduction.
A lot of the comments I've read on this thread sound like it's all about measurements. In my experience however, measurements are of course very important, but certainly not everything.
After all, the end result should be something that is pleasing to listen to since that's the reason for building them in the first place. I've heard more than a few speakers that had great measurements but didn't sound that good. Conversely, I've heard speakers that while not so impressive in measurements, actually sounded terrific.
Numbers and graphs are fine to point the way, but in the end, how do they sound?
After all, the end result should be something that is pleasing to listen to since that's the reason for building them in the first place. I've heard more than a few speakers that had great measurements but didn't sound that good. Conversely, I've heard speakers that while not so impressive in measurements, actually sounded terrific.
Numbers and graphs are fine to point the way, but in the end, how do they sound?
Yes. =)
Alas, no. Huge box. But ported it will be. (not finnished)
The Fs in in free air. One measures 18Hz, the other about 21Hz. I expect them to come down a little with break in. Or not.
Not at all. They are Altec 416-8A recently reconed at GPA. So not a common pro driver, but pro none the less.
As Rob points about above, there are some others with Fs this low. But it's not the norm today, which was Tom's point.
I do agree that there isn't much music down this low, so it's just a luxury. But there can be a lot of room tone way down there, and that can be fun to hear/feel.
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