ShinOBIWAN said:
Pleased to make your acquaintance, Ant🙂
I have no experience with HVLP, so I can't comment. I've seen painters at work (I'm in commercial construction) use large HVLP systems that seemed to work well. I've also seen expensive ($5000.00+) airless sprayers that do an amazingly smooth job.
I used to have an old siphon feed gun, which was a POS, but got the job done. When I switched for a gravity feed, it was like night and day - what a difference. I'd expect you were disappointed to find it was not as good as you expected.
It might be worth it to change your base coat to something that you can sand smooth, just to see the results. Sounds to me like your base is nitrocellulose lacquer, which does go on flat, but can be polished to a high shine when dry.
By using a base that you will sand, you can lay it on in a normal coat and not have the bother of overspray.
Interesting to see your thoughts on HVLP Ant, I've not bought a paint system yet but I could do with doing so soon... Maybe for me not having painted much before I can get into HVLP easier?
MJL21193 said:
Thanks John,
I'll have to try different brands and types of paint. I've been fairly narrow minded regarding finishes and have just used whats been recommended or found works well. The Outrageous paint company that I linked to is pretty much all I use and tend to stick to their stuff.
I have however bought a small sample of water based primer/base/clear from the company Lechler, I think it goes under the moniker of 'Hydrofan'. I'm wanting to get into more health and environment friendly finishes - I did start with 2k and now use 1k or synthetics for fears of health consequences. TBH the final finish is about as good with the 1k vs 2k but the durability isn't and it takes a fair while longer to harden and shrink.
I really need to try out the water based because I'm extremely skeptical of it, I've been told that its good stuff but how good I don't know. Another big incentive for me to move over to other paint systems is that celly based paint in the UK will be banned from sale by 2008 so need to find alternatives.
richie00boy said:
I think thats the problem, I'm coming from compressed air and the feel of the HVLP is different. It doesn't lay paint down in the same fashion.
I still think the best results are with compressed air but HVLP certainly look perfect for primers where you can efficiently lay down a lot of material without being so anal about overall spray quality.
Maybe I should try another gun with the HVLP before completely writing it off. At the moment I use a Sharpe T1 Titanium HVLP.
Good to see your comments about water based paint. I was trying to use them as well, for the same reasons as you.
I have a car wing to paint. Maybe I could pop over for a visit and we could have a go with your HVLP if you have time? Then I could see HVLP in action and maybe make a decision.
I have a car wing to paint. Maybe I could pop over for a visit and we could have a go with your HVLP if you have time? Then I could see HVLP in action and maybe make a decision.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yikes! You're not wrong about the prices!
I suppose if you're doing a whole car, then you waste little paint (relative to the amount you use) so it's slightly better value.
Pics look great. Very bling 😉
MJL21193 said:
An interesting read. Thanks John.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Because I've not used conventional systems, I can't compare. However, I've found my hobbyist HVLP system (probably only a single stage) is quite sensitive to having the right needle size. That said, it seems to do a reasonable job on paints I've put through it.
MJL21193 said:
That is definitely worth checking out, thanks. As for prices - you must understand the UK trade system of converting currency. 1USD = 1GBP... therefore, everything ends up twice the price over here.
(I wish I were joking)Here's a quick update on progress with the test blocks...
Three of the blocks had been given two coats of polyurethane varnish on the previous night (as it sinks into the bare cut edges quite well). They were dry sanded with 400 grit (as there was a little furring on the surface) and I didn't want to risk getting water on the MDF, should the paper have cut through the varnish.
There was some sinking of the glue lines on the PVA glued block, but the Cascamite and epoxy glued blocks showed little/no signs of this problem. All were given another coat of varnish after the sanding.
Three other blocks had previously been given a coat of epoxy, and these were dry sanded with 80 grit, then 120 grit (as per the instructions), and received another coat of epoxy.
All of the epoxy coated blocks appeared to have visible sinking of glue lines - regardless of the glue type used (epoxy, PVA, Cascamite).
I also put four coats of 2K high solids primer on the remaining three blocks. Some furring was immediately evident, as well as significant sinking of the glue lines.
I'm busy for a few days now, but I plan to sand all the blocks and paint with cellulose base coat, then clear coat, and we'll see how they turn out.
I do plan to take a look at some other paint types in the future, but for the moment, I'll keep the variables down to different sealers and glues.
Three of the blocks had been given two coats of polyurethane varnish on the previous night (as it sinks into the bare cut edges quite well). They were dry sanded with 400 grit (as there was a little furring on the surface) and I didn't want to risk getting water on the MDF, should the paper have cut through the varnish.
There was some sinking of the glue lines on the PVA glued block, but the Cascamite and epoxy glued blocks showed little/no signs of this problem. All were given another coat of varnish after the sanding.
Three other blocks had previously been given a coat of epoxy, and these were dry sanded with 80 grit, then 120 grit (as per the instructions), and received another coat of epoxy.
All of the epoxy coated blocks appeared to have visible sinking of glue lines - regardless of the glue type used (epoxy, PVA, Cascamite).
I also put four coats of 2K high solids primer on the remaining three blocks. Some furring was immediately evident, as well as significant sinking of the glue lines.
I'm busy for a few days now, but I plan to sand all the blocks and paint with cellulose base coat, then clear coat, and we'll see how they turn out.
I do plan to take a look at some other paint types in the future, but for the moment, I'll keep the variables down to different sealers and glues.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I think you are on to something Ant with the waterbased finish.
I have used water based polyurethane for about 20 years, and I have to say it gives very good results. Mostly used on furniture that I've built over the years, I resently used it to finish a pair of speakers: (Thread:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99301&perpage=10&highlight=&pagenumber=7). The finish seems to be even tougher and harder than solvent based urethane.
Just for an experiment, I took one speaker down and tried the polishing routine on the back panel. Never occured to me before to try and polish this finish as I have with paint or solvent based clear.
Wet sand with 2000 (VERY hard to sand, it took twice as long as it normally would), first polish with Turtle Wax polishing compound (cheap), then with Meguier's.
Excellent lustre! Very nice over the stained wood.
Was tempted to take a picture, but my camera will not do it justice. Take my word though, I'm starting to re-think my finishing process.
Perhaps start with solvent urethane to prime, then a base of precatalyzed waterbased epoxy, then waterbased clear.
The wheels are turning. 😉
MJL21193 said:
Thats good to hear.
I really don't want to take a step down in any area of paint performance when eventually switching over. Is there a downside to the waterbased clear you used, aside from sanding? Also, can you remember what brand you used just for reference?
ShinOBIWAN said:
Well, one downside is that it will freeze. I left a one gallon can in my garage last winter, and when I went to use it for the above mentioned speakers, it was ruined.
More expensive and because it is thinner, will not cover as much.
Another problem is that it doesn't "liquify" a surface like solvent urethane does. I think extra care needs to be taken with the base coat to give a "wet" glossy look.
Has many upsides though: sprays beautifully without reducing, dries FAST. Has a funny odour, but is completely harmless - spray with a dust mask (indoors!). Already said it's tough and hard (recommended for hardwood floors).
Bottom line, I don't think you would be disappointed.
I have removable back panels on my main speakers (for access to the crossover) that I will remove, strip the wax from, re-sand and try a coat of the waterbased on. This should give an indication of the potential.
Brand is, once again, Varathane:
http://www.flecto.com/product.asp?frm_product_id=60&SBL=1
Can you post pics of the finish you buffed up please John. Its just to get an idea really so no fancy photography required.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Good stuff sploo, looking forward to the next instalment.
Ant, thanks I'll let you know a date when I get more organised.
Ant, thanks I'll let you know a date when I get more organised.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Last night, like an impatient child, I went out out and sprayed some onto the orginal surround speaker box pictured in the thread I posted.
Admittedly, this is not my finest work (box is made from cheap plywood). It's original finish is 10+ coats of flat alkyd paint - it looked ok.
I sanded this as smooth as I could with 2000, then sprayed on a single coat of the water based poly. In the can, it looks milky. On black, it looks purple-blue. In my haste, I didn't strain, and there was a little crud that spat out. Overall though, a very even thickish coat.
It doesn't dry as fast as I remembered when sprayed. I left it alone to dry.
tonight I have looked to see that it's dry and looks ok. I take a chance and decide to try to polish it. Remember, it's only one coat. Sanding is once again long, it's hard after only 24 hours.
It polishes very well, not long at all to clear all of the scratches.
My concerns about it's ability to "liquify" the surface are justified - from a distance,it looks wet and glossy, very reflective. But under close examination, the paint underneath appears dull, not deep black. The paint is flat to begin with though. Maybe if applied over a gloss finish, results would improve.
I have a picure of how it turned out. I tried to take a pic of the wood veneer box, but couldn't get one clear enough to post.
Attachments
That looks good to me John. We're always are own biggest critiques so I'll take your bad points with a pinch of salt. 😀
At least in the photo's the Varithane doesn't quite have that same contrasty wet look as my current clear. If your able to sand after just 24 hours then that's certainly faster drying than the 1k clear I use.
When you lifted the paint can up that you've got in the shots, did you have any tiny depressions in the paint? I'm just trying to assess just how quickly it hardens. I note that you only did a single coat and multiple coats will slow down this process.
Does getting water on the finish tarnish it anyway? I'm thinking along the lines of if you spill thinner on a celly finish then you'd have a problem.
Overall I'm impressed. Once I find the time I'll get to work spraying up samples of the waterbased products I have.
At least in the photo's the Varithane doesn't quite have that same contrasty wet look as my current clear. If your able to sand after just 24 hours then that's certainly faster drying than the 1k clear I use.
When you lifted the paint can up that you've got in the shots, did you have any tiny depressions in the paint? I'm just trying to assess just how quickly it hardens. I note that you only did a single coat and multiple coats will slow down this process.
Does getting water on the finish tarnish it anyway? I'm thinking along the lines of if you spill thinner on a celly finish then you'd have a problem.
Overall I'm impressed. Once I find the time I'll get to work spraying up samples of the waterbased products I have.
Hi Ant,
The can made no dents. It's very hard - harder than one coat of solvent poly would be after 24 hours. It took a lot of sanding to flatten, and didn't come close to cutting through.
It's not affected by water after it's dry. A wet glass will not make a white ring on it.
The first time I used the waterbased Varathane was on an oak bookcase that I built in 1987. The finish still looks great after 20 years of use.
I think it has great potential, just need to overcome the base prep problem. Maybe a complete polish on the base before the clear? double the work, but could be worth it.
Another possibility is if it can be coloured instead of clear. I'll have to look for that.
The can made no dents. It's very hard - harder than one coat of solvent poly would be after 24 hours. It took a lot of sanding to flatten, and didn't come close to cutting through.
It's not affected by water after it's dry. A wet glass will not make a white ring on it.
The first time I used the waterbased Varathane was on an oak bookcase that I built in 1987. The finish still looks great after 20 years of use.
I think it has great potential, just need to overcome the base prep problem. Maybe a complete polish on the base before the clear? double the work, but could be worth it.
Another possibility is if it can be coloured instead of clear. I'll have to look for that.
MJL21193 said:
I'm wondering if because I have waterbased primer, base and clear all from the same manufacturer then maybe that will be a mute point. What do you think?
ShinOBIWAN said:
It's possible. Only way to tell for sure is by doing it, so I look forward to your results.
It didn't take long to find a coloured version of the waterbased urethane. Sherwin-Williams has it (don't know if they are in the UK). Available in a wide colour range, in gloss. I will go there and get a can. This could be the true one step solution.
Here's a link to the coating, it's called armourseal floor coating, a 1K waterbased urethane enamel. They also have a 2K version called armour-plex. This would have to be on a par with baked enamel or powder coating - I can't imagine how hard it would be.
Also worth looking at is the Centurion 2K further down the page. It's high gloss.
Data sheets have all the details:
http://www.sherwin-williams.com/pro.../sherwin_williams_paints/high_performance.jsp
Looking at that tin of Varathene, I'm getting vibes of Ronseal varnish. I need to nip into Focus to check, but I reckon Ronseal might well have an equivalent. They may call it a varnish, but is there any difference really between clearcoat/lacquer/varnish?
Or maybe that's why you're not getting such a deep shine - the stuff is meant for putting on wood not paint?
Or maybe that's why you're not getting such a deep shine - the stuff is meant for putting on wood not paint?
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