500Hz is about all we can do I'm afraid 🙁
No way it'll meet up with sub.
Here's the beauty of a Trynergy:
In a conventional loudspeaker, the sound is radiating into 180 degrees, and probably more. Due to that, you're going to need a driver that's at least 4" in diameter for your midrange, and probably bigger.
But when you put a driver onto a horn or a waveguide, you're radiating into a smaller angle. For instance, and 90 degree waveguide radiates into a space that's 25% as large as a flat baffle.
So by reducing the radiation angle, you can get away with a 2" driver on a 90 degree waveguide, instead of a 4" waveguide on a flat baffle.
But once the sound exits the waveguide, it's going to be radiating in all directions again. That's the key. If you have a waveguide that's 13.5" wide, the sound will be radiating in all directions below 1000hz. (Because the waveguide is too small to constrain it.)
So the whole thing is a real juggling act. You want a driver that's small enough to get to 20khz, but not so small that it can't take any power. You want a waveguide that's big enough to constrain the radiation, but that will get big in a hurry. If you want to control it down to 500hz you need one that's twenty seven inches wide.
If I had a lot of time to kill I'd be strongly considering a vertical array feeding a waveguide. It would look a lot like the VTC Synergy Horns.
Thanks for the explanation. In terms of meeting up with a sub I meant that with the original Trynergy it used (4) 6.5" drivers in series-parallel to get down to a sub, but as we shrink down the Trynergy we have less room to add mid-bass drivers.
The current micro Trynergy size holds four X 5.25 woofers perfectly and should get to 80Hz according to sims if using bass reflex re-injection. Woofer sensitivity is limited to maybe 95dB.
Nate,
More like 80 dB if the midrange was padded for flat HF response on axis.
In the small Trynergy, the mid band at 1w 1m SPL has gone from 85 dB(front loaded) to 105 dB (a 20 dB gain), but the HF has no horn gain- at around 12,000 Hz it has actually lost a few dB, and is only about 80 dB with an erratic dispersion pattern, some 20 dB less sensitive than the output of a compression driver on a 90 degree constant directivity horn.
Art
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On Patric thread I see this.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-34.html#post3192310
nice reading there.
But is a paraline, for unity and synergy horns, but what making this in the trynergy throat?.
regards
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-34.html#post3192310
nice reading there.
But is a paraline, for unity and synergy horns, but what making this in the trynergy throat?.
regards
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Given how small this thing is now, why stop at center channel? At least all front 3. Having a sub to fill in below 100Hz is a real cost and size effective way to do this. I'm still on travel so can't add the woofers until I get back later next week. I am hopeful with EQ is will be relatively flat and still high sensitivity circa 95dB below 4kHz and require boost above. Although to play 95dB at 1kHz takes less than 1/2 watt there is still room thermally to boost the highs above 4kHz by 12dB without overheating the voice coil.
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xrk, I like the extra compact synergy idea. I think your initial sims and measurements of the 2" FR look encouraging. Will be interesting to see the result of integrating the bargain-priced mids.
Do you have horizontal polars of the smaller trynergy?
Do you have horizontal polars of the smaller trynergy?
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No, not yet as I just got the basic horn done and then had to leave for travel. Will do when I return. However, just ran a sim with dual 10CL51's rather than four budget drivers, it boosts system sensitivity to about 100dB at 2.83v. Hoever, I am not sure if the little Tang Band can keep up. I am wondering if the ScanSpeak 10F can be strapped to this smaller 1.38in square throat and pushed harder and still reach 20kHz with higher sensitivity than the Tang Band.
Coolio.
Assuming you are aiming to keep the throat area > 0.25Sd (ie 9cm2) to avoid compression, a 1.38*1.38in throat (ie 12.29cm2) appears fine (if I can math). However, if you mean 1.38in2 (ie 3.51cm2) that's a different story 🙄
I meant that the throat is 1.38in X 1.38in or 12.3 sq cm. I suppose it may just work. I left plenty of space on the driver mounting flange for larger drivers to try so should be easy.
Just a reminder of how compact this horn is. The width in vertical orientation is about the same as a standard letter sheet of paper.
Here is another view of the mounting flange back plate showing plenty of clearance for a 3.5in driver.
Just a reminder of how compact this horn is. The width in vertical orientation is about the same as a standard letter sheet of paper.
Here is another view of the mounting flange back plate showing plenty of clearance for a 3.5in driver.
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John,
What is please the best radiation pattern you experiment at home in one of your several synergy designs ? 60°x60° ? less ?, more ?
thank you
@ X : hey, I like the progressive vertical walls design à la Iwata bi-radiall horn 🙂 ! I have to try again to re cut and don't give-up...maybe I will try to find some another foam !
You know my philosophy : if we can match the sensivity of the mouth output from the apex driver with the woofs, we can have a serious mini 100 dB sensivity and more at 1 meter for any amps 🙂 !
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Eldam,
Don't give up - the paper faced foam core is much easier to cut. It's important to have a new sharp razor tip before starting. Either use a break off blade or use a sharpening stone. Cut in multiple strokes and lightly at first to establish pattern for subsequent razor strokes to follow. It takes me 4 to 5 strokes to cut through 5mm foam core.
With dual 10CL51 you can have 100dB overall system sensitivity.
Don't give up - the paper faced foam core is much easier to cut. It's important to have a new sharp razor tip before starting. Either use a break off blade or use a sharpening stone. Cut in multiple strokes and lightly at first to establish pattern for subsequent razor strokes to follow. It takes me 4 to 5 strokes to cut through 5mm foam core.
With dual 10CL51 you can have 100dB overall system sensitivity.
Thanks for the words X,
I really believe the low XO should be not higher than 100/125 Hz because of the sub-woof placement detection behavior (some says it's even 80 Hz !). And sealed : I'm not sure than the vented ports radiating with force Inside the horns is Something good for the little BL 10F. ( My two mains speakers are 125 Hz & 150 Hz XO : the excellent Kef 104/2 ref and the Boston Lynnfield you know already ! )
I missed Something for the + 6 dB of the woofs ! The Inside box woofers are // : so + 0 dB (+3 dB but - 3 dB as the Mms is x2), but the two bass cabinets in serie give + 6 dB ? (I mean in the case with have just a classic amp for the woofs and an other one for the 10F, despite several little classD ! How much units are needed 50 ? 100 ? for ScanSpeak ? I'm in for a pair, despite I have always the 10F/8428G00 !
Hey we should ask like Siegfried Linkwitz to make for us a special 10F with more BL ! sell a non synergy kit at PE to allow people to thanks you for all the good sharing you make for us ! I believe you are on Something with horn + little FR classic à la 10F !
I really believe the low XO should be not higher than 100/125 Hz because of the sub-woof placement detection behavior (some says it's even 80 Hz !). And sealed : I'm not sure than the vented ports radiating with force Inside the horns is Something good for the little BL 10F. ( My two mains speakers are 125 Hz & 150 Hz XO : the excellent Kef 104/2 ref and the Boston Lynnfield you know already ! )
I missed Something for the + 6 dB of the woofs ! The Inside box woofers are // : so + 0 dB (+3 dB but - 3 dB as the Mms is x2), but the two bass cabinets in serie give + 6 dB ? (I mean in the case with have just a classic amp for the woofs and an other one for the 10F, despite several little classD ! How much units are needed 50 ? 100 ? for ScanSpeak ? I'm in for a pair, despite I have always the 10F/8428G00 !
Hey we should ask like Siegfried Linkwitz to make for us a special 10F with more BL ! sell a non synergy kit at PE to allow people to thanks you for all the good sharing you make for us ! I believe you are on Something with horn + little FR classic à la 10F !
Hi again X,
In the top&bottom patern, I don't understand where is beginning exactly the throat and where is exactly ending the side pannel when putted on the patern ?
At the mouth : is the little vertical line between the curved line and the outside quarter ?
At the throat where is exactly the beginning to form a square with the side walls ? the line above all the measurement which cross all the patern in width ? (the nearest & first line towards the mouth)
thanks to you in advance.
In the top&bottom patern, I don't understand where is beginning exactly the throat and where is exactly ending the side pannel when putted on the patern ?
At the mouth : is the little vertical line between the curved line and the outside quarter ?
At the throat where is exactly the beginning to form a square with the side walls ? the line above all the measurement which cross all the patern in width ? (the nearest & first line towards the mouth)
thanks to you in advance.
Eldam,
I know it's a confusing drawing as it shows the 3D projection of the side walls up past the edge where it joins. That occurs at same location as the large horizontal line drawn showing depth of horn (before the visual end of the panel as projected). Hard to explain in words but I only have my phone right now.
I know it's a confusing drawing as it shows the 3D projection of the side walls up past the edge where it joins. That occurs at same location as the large horizontal line drawn showing depth of horn (before the visual end of the panel as projected). Hard to explain in words but I only have my phone right now.
I did make a form of the conus with plaster, so I can see how to make the plug.
Maybe a radial plug with rings in stead of cut outs then it is easy to make with multiply slits.
Maybe a radial plug with rings in stead of cut outs then it is easy to make with multiply slits.
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I might use plastic modeling clay to get shape of cone on mine - then take dial calipers to measure and the model in 3D to print phase plug. A radial design may be good or perhaps a more complex tangerine might be in order given complex design achievable with 3D printing.
Thanks X for the tip. I saw a new blade is cuting no more than 1 wall...after cutting becomes weak, too weak for a clean cut !