Get the $80 2x4 first. You don't need all that AVR stuff. This will get you going and allow you to understand how to do XO and EQ for this horn and other projects. Sounds very good already and is simple and cheap compared to the other multimedia HT products.
If doing a 3-way stereo, getting two of the 2x4's is still less expensive than a single 8 channel.
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I have heard that soaking thin ply in water overnight then bending when wet and screwing together works well. Anthony Bisset says he built 4 of these horns out of plywood that way in one night. He may post some photos of his build soon.
thunk303 and Mindsource,
Think in long run seen with audiophile eyes it would pay back doing the extra work implement mid-woofers as xrk971 did to have ctc distance as a coxial speaker, and would improve vertical lobe at XO point so it doesn't matter if one is sitting or standing up. Below example vertical polar is a 400Hz XO point and ctc distance to mid-woofer set 500mm in the lower one. Also examples is with minimum phase XO types that have HP verse LP in phase at XO point such as BW2/4 or LR2/4 where a BW1/3 will have a tilted lobe.
Of course it would work having single mid-woofer below horn many multi way speakers has such a lobe scheme, but think xrk971 Synergy solution in polar response is improvement as was it a single point source.
Think in long run seen with audiophile eyes it would pay back doing the extra work implement mid-woofers as xrk971 did to have ctc distance as a coxial speaker, and would improve vertical lobe at XO point so it doesn't matter if one is sitting or standing up. Below example vertical polar is a 400Hz XO point and ctc distance to mid-woofer set 500mm in the lower one. Also examples is with minimum phase XO types that have HP verse LP in phase at XO point such as BW2/4 or LR2/4 where a BW1/3 will have a tilted lobe.
Of course it would work having single mid-woofer below horn many multi way speakers has such a lobe scheme, but think xrk971 Synergy solution in polar response is improvement as was it a single point source.
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It is a lot action here. Well I have made a correction filter for the faseplug version, but the faseplug go extent to 4 Khz, after that I need again 10 a 12 dB correction making the horn lower sensitivity in my case 92 dB watt who is still 10 plus dB for this driver not bad for a 3 incher.
I go make a radial plug, busy now with making a saw on a table so I can do precise work.
I do have done measurement who has one close to horn and one with horn high in free air with 2.5 meter distance.
looks not bad, when damping the horn with roof leather it will be even better I think.
The correction filter is made with a cap and a resistor parallel in series with speaker, making it a kind of frequentie independent L-pad so to say eliminating some loss.
XRK971- the speaker need a qts lower then 0.40 my is also something to high, horns need a strong motor special for hf extention, a tangband wideband has very low tqs sometimes even 0.2.
I have removed the amplifier shelf filter from input, I go use normal speaker crossover for corrections, because it go to 3 a 4 Khz with faseplug I do think about making a three way horn, with tweeter and bass mid corner horn, this keeps 108 dB watt, and very low distortion, but for now I go on with the trynergy and ready for the bass part.
regards
kees
I go make a radial plug, busy now with making a saw on a table so I can do precise work.
I do have done measurement who has one close to horn and one with horn high in free air with 2.5 meter distance.
looks not bad, when damping the horn with roof leather it will be even better I think.
The correction filter is made with a cap and a resistor parallel in series with speaker, making it a kind of frequentie independent L-pad so to say eliminating some loss.
XRK971- the speaker need a qts lower then 0.40 my is also something to high, horns need a strong motor special for hf extention, a tangband wideband has very low tqs sometimes even 0.2.
I have removed the amplifier shelf filter from input, I go use normal speaker crossover for corrections, because it go to 3 a 4 Khz with faseplug I do think about making a three way horn, with tweeter and bass mid corner horn, this keeps 108 dB watt, and very low distortion, but for now I go on with the trynergy and ready for the bass part.
regards
kees
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Great progress Kees. Thanks for the circuit. Would you mind showing on same plot with and without your equalization circuit? If we use a different driver, we would need to customize the circuit I suppose. So it is basically a frequency dependent low shelf filter, looks like 2nd order this time?
Don't forget to plot with 5dB per division (20 is too big to see anything).
Don't forget to plot with 5dB per division (20 is too big to see anything).
Here what EQ kees52 circuit do to grey trace 100dB SPL textbook flat response driver, blue is with EQ circuit.
Also did find some other Qts <0,4 drivers other than TB brand at different costs.
First is obsolete Faital Pro 3FE20 but still available around in some shops datasheet says Qts 0,39.
Second is SS 10F/4424 datasheet says Qts 0,29.
Third is SS 10F/8424 datasheet says Qts 0,37.
Fourth is Tymphany NE123W-08 datasheet says Qts 0,35.
Fifth is MA Alpair 6M generation 2 datasheet says Qts 0,38.
Also did find some other Qts <0,4 drivers other than TB brand at different costs.
First is obsolete Faital Pro 3FE20 but still available around in some shops datasheet says Qts 0,39.
Second is SS 10F/4424 datasheet says Qts 0,29.
Third is SS 10F/8424 datasheet says Qts 0,37.
Fourth is Tymphany NE123W-08 datasheet says Qts 0,35.
Fifth is MA Alpair 6M generation 2 datasheet says Qts 0,38.
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This moment I am busy without the faseplug, it looks like distortion occurs when use that, and because after 5 Khz we have to use a 10- dB correction then I have bot use that plug, and horn do beam with the plug also, maybe the radial version do not.
First picture is without filter right on the amp output.
Alpair 6 M looks oke, has a very strong cone.
Here some more
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/87174-full-range-pics-84.html
some pictures.
First picture is without filter right on the amp output.
Alpair 6 M looks oke, has a very strong cone.
Here some more
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/87174-full-range-pics-84.html
some pictures.
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Thanks, Byrtt.
This is only a 2in but Qts is 0.29 (advertised) and about 90dB sensitive (when I measured it at 2.83v). My measured Qts was only 0.45 so wonder if there was a defect as that is pretty far off?
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/tangband/tangband_w2_852sh.pdf
This is only a 2in but Qts is 0.29 (advertised) and about 90dB sensitive (when I measured it at 2.83v). My measured Qts was only 0.45 so wonder if there was a defect as that is pretty far off?
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/tangband/tangband_w2_852sh.pdf
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kees52,
Could look like response from either 10F/4424 or 10F/8424 datasheet would suit fill some of your dips, bad thing though they not as low cost as Visaton FRS 8 M. From datasheet Alpair don't suit here with the dip at 9kHz but often seen they perform very different from datasheet in real world so it could surprise, at www.oak-audio.co.uk they ask £77.00 a pair.
Thanks, xrk971.
That TB response looks nice at datasheet have the >10dB rise above 10kHz as natural build in kees52 miss in raw measurement.
Regarding far off measured Qts do you think our weight specs is not precise enough when using the added mass method with DATS device measurements, say this because my 10F/8424 also have way higher Qts than advertised. To story have to add my weight says D=0,5g and driver was brand new and maybe needs break in.
Could look like response from either 10F/4424 or 10F/8424 datasheet would suit fill some of your dips, bad thing though they not as low cost as Visaton FRS 8 M. From datasheet Alpair don't suit here with the dip at 9kHz but often seen they perform very different from datasheet in real world so it could surprise, at www.oak-audio.co.uk they ask £77.00 a pair.
Thanks, xrk971.
That TB response looks nice at datasheet have the >10dB rise above 10kHz as natural build in kees52 miss in raw measurement.
Regarding far off measured Qts do you think our weight specs is not precise enough when using the added mass method with DATS device measurements, say this because my 10F/8424 also have way higher Qts than advertised. To story have to add my weight says D=0,5g and driver was brand new and maybe needs break in.
I have a digital gram scale that is uncalibrated so who knows, however, some drivers have measured correctly for Qts (Eminence Beta 8cx, Dayton PA130, Dayton RS225, TC9FD, TG9FD, Fostex FF105WK, RS 40-1197). I should weigh a known object like US copper (not zinc) penny, etc. The added mass is for Vas measurement, I believe Qts is independent and comes strictly from shape of impedance peak.
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I have plans to buy some others or find used ones for testing, I think the visaton is not very good for the horn, to weak a conus.
But I go do some further tests, because we have to keep having fun right, just because it is cheap the art is to get it right like almost as a high end.
Still I think a three way horn system with also 3 horns is the way to keep things high efficienty like for people with single ended triodes, A 80 Hz 300 Hz corner or wall horn is not very big, everthing above that has to be free air calculated.
But first, keep playing in this thread, maybe I do start a new one with that idea later this winter. see picture of a russian who did it. nice piece of wood art thought,
regards
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I think I have trouble with mike, wifi radiation from my nabure who put out 8 watts, still interfere with equipment, unbelievable that this is alowed in holland and I can nothing do about it.
measuring the visaton alone without horn it is also very wild, mike also l;et see pulses on scope who is from that antenna or something else nabure has, his work is radar systems.
regards
measuring the visaton alone without horn it is also very wild, mike also l;et see pulses on scope who is from that antenna or something else nabure has, his work is radar systems.
regards
You can get an 80w RF transmitter tuned to his freq and let him taste his own medicine.
Russian horn is nice but that is like multi multi point source rather than unified point source like Trynergy. I think you don't need tweeter - get a full range with good top end like FR88EX. That takes you to 400Hz. Let woofers work from there to 80Hz and add a sub below. Really a 2-way with a non directional sub.
Russian horn is nice but that is like multi multi point source rather than unified point source like Trynergy. I think you don't need tweeter - get a full range with good top end like FR88EX. That takes you to 400Hz. Let woofers work from there to 80Hz and add a sub below. Really a 2-way with a non directional sub.
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Hi All
I discover that the visatons do resonate, sounds like a spring, start already with low volume, also after I have use a ferrite ringcore for the mike to get RF out, I did measure again, also here the visatons are very badly made, both. in free air she alse ring very much, and I have a lot of peaks.
see pictures of the old phillips and the visatons, it is quite clear. And still I am not
pleased with the mike amp, distortion because of RF radiation, so I need to make that first
oke, I go use a opamp from burr brown.
This way I can not go further, first buy some other speakers also..
regards
I discover that the visatons do resonate, sounds like a spring, start already with low volume, also after I have use a ferrite ringcore for the mike to get RF out, I did measure again, also here the visatons are very badly made, both. in free air she alse ring very much, and I have a lot of peaks.
see pictures of the old phillips and the visatons, it is quite clear. And still I am not
pleased with the mike amp, distortion because of RF radiation, so I need to make that first
oke, I go use a opamp from burr brown.
This way I can not go further, first buy some other speakers also..
regards
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Yes my goal is also this afcourse, first of all, because I am already here, and curious.
But first a good speaker, and a more expensive one because cheap do not always work. but maybe the visatons has fabric error. I go mail visaton because she can go to 30 watts.
O ehh hospital research has discover a electro allergy with me, so I did go live here clean, however nabure has one so judge go look at it soon.
putting 80 watts to him is not good for me, shure not because it is a 5.8 gig transmitter.
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Try the FR88EX. I suspect it will work well. I suppose I could pop those into my Trynergies and see what it can do. I have new Harsch XO now that should get me much closer to transient perfect.
First rule out couple things, measure and decouple everything from RF, then test amp for oscillations, and audio card in pc test and mike amp rebuild with a opamp. and also the mike itselfs if it is not damaged.
I get to much peaks, even from the headphone who has to be straight respons when lock mike between them, this was the case but I think nabure is again play with rad transmitters, who is not without danger I can tell.
the FR88ex I can shure test, I want only low qts ones in horns, that needs to.
So as Monthy python says, get on with it.
Correction, FR88ex has to high qts (0.55).
I get to much peaks, even from the headphone who has to be straight respons when lock mike between them, this was the case but I think nabure is again play with rad transmitters, who is not without danger I can tell.
the FR88ex I can shure test, I want only low qts ones in horns, that needs to.
So as Monthy python says, get on with it.
Correction, FR88ex has to high qts (0.55).
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