SY said:
As you will see in the details,the test will be clean and true.All cables will have the chance to "sound"their best without any interference from switches etc.....All the conditions will be 100% the same,as the conditions in any place someone goes to pay his money,only diference will be that the listener will not know which cable is which.Simple as that,and the only correct way IMO.If Randi accepts I take the test as simple as that,I'll most propably be a millionair the same day🙂 If on the other hand you adjust the cables as you said for sound level,then one of the cables looses an "advantage"which has because of its design.Why not then,equalize the cables also,so that you will be closer to achieve the listeners failure?This is not a test,it is an obsession to find ways for the listener to fail.He will be trying to hear diferences,and you are very unfair if you want to find a way to "kill"the diferences the way you want.Also,be assured that the cables choice will not be such,so the cables will have huge RLC diferences,I assure you of this.Any ideas of course are welcome from any one.As someone said in this thread,at least we are doing something.I know it is not easy,but I have invited anyone who can make it haven't I?And I haven't invited anyone because I know it is dificult.When I say anyone is welcome,I mean it,because the real fun will not be the test,but the rest after it🙂
I hope that you are not implying that next week we will post results that we already have typed.It would be most unfair and insulting.
There can't be any interaction at all between the listener and switcher. That means everything including visual, aural or whatever you can think of. The switching would have to be done "behind closed door".Panicos K said:
Also, the switching time will have to be very short otherwise our aural memory will fade enough to make the comparison meaningless. The best scenario would be to switch instantly but I know that will be just about impossible with amps. It should be within a few seconds at the most to make the comparison effective.
Remember, OP was asking about tube receiver and CD player's power cord.
Evenharmonics said:
We are trying to solve as many problems as possible regarding everything you rightly said.Not all will be possible though,but to give you an example we discussed today,when switching the cables on the turntable psu the "switcher"will have to remove the cable from the psu,even if he wants to use the same cable again.There will be a noise during swithing,but even the connectors will be the same.By this I mean that the noise will be the same for all cables during switching.It is quite easy to hide him,but not behind close doors(remember Charlie Rich? )but behind black curtain I would say.It will take a few seconds to switch tt psu cables(actually we estimated 2-3 seconds),but all listeners aural memory will suffer equally.
Panicos K said:
I'm sure if the listeners are trying to hear differences, they will hear differences.
It's a common problem, I think. In an 'audiophile' gathering, admitting you can't hear a difference that other folks are talking about is tantamount to saying that something is 'wrong' with your ears/brain. It's a lot easier to 'go with the flow'.
It's a fundamental part of human social behaviour.
cf. The Emperor's New Clothes (fairy tale).
Just try your proposed 'blind test' with three copies of the same power cord, and you may get some additional interesting results.
Cheers
John
No, what I'm stating (not implying) is that in a "test" being run by people who want there to be differences and believe there are differences using test subjects who want there to be differences and believe there are differences and run without good controls, the outcome is preordained, regardless of whether that's your intention.
You'll "hear" differences.
You'll "hear" differences.
In AudioXpress 11/07 & 12/07 were 2 articles:
A Mains Analyzer - How Clean Is Your Juice?
This article included waveform analysis of the mains waveform. The author's statement about the condition of his line voltage: "The mains supply is noisy, really noisy, About 10V RMS noisy."
Should/Will any test use a clean or conditioned power supply?
Or will this be an evaluation of how well cords deal with existing mains noise?
This strikes me as an important consideration.
A Mains Analyzer - How Clean Is Your Juice?
This article included waveform analysis of the mains waveform. The author's statement about the condition of his line voltage: "The mains supply is noisy, really noisy, About 10V RMS noisy."
Should/Will any test use a clean or conditioned power supply?
Or will this be an evaluation of how well cords deal with existing mains noise?
This strikes me as an important consideration.
VictoriaGuy said:
Listening to the same cable,will be a part of our test.Now that will be fun🙂 Trying or wishing to hear diferences does not really garrantee you will.I know what you mean but if that goes for me,I can tell you that before I bought my cables,I have rejected another three dozens of them.I have never said in this forum that I agree that the most expensive cables are the best,I only said that I can hear(or claim to hear if you like)diferences.Our test will not be an "audiophile gathering"believe me.None of us has money to throw away.Not that this can be of any interest to anyone perhaps,but mostly for me,jobless for 8 months due to a health problem.
SY said:
It is almost like saying that you don't hear diferences because you don't want to🙂 So,we know of someone as from now,who will say
"I told you so".The diference is that we will not only try to hear a diference,in our notes we will write which was which"Now,you just can't "want that".You have to find it.
of course the cables can be hot-swapped
in fact, it would make an interesting twist to the "testing". any number of power supply cables can be connected in parallel with one being the live one at any one time - a simple make before break switch is all thats needed. As I said, leaving all the cables conducting at hte same time would be a very interesting dataset itself.
Of course, I'm with Sy - even if the test was perfectly controlled for techinical issues, if people want to hear a difference (or at the least, are anticipating to) they will... Only made worse by being only three subjects who already know each other.
Still - I look forward to the results! It should be an interesting day for you Panicos!
in fact, it would make an interesting twist to the "testing". any number of power supply cables can be connected in parallel with one being the live one at any one time - a simple make before break switch is all thats needed. As I said, leaving all the cables conducting at hte same time would be a very interesting dataset itself.
Of course, I'm with Sy - even if the test was perfectly controlled for techinical issues, if people want to hear a difference (or at the least, are anticipating to) they will... Only made worse by being only three subjects who already know each other.
Still - I look forward to the results! It should be an interesting day for you Panicos!
He will have to or should look up proper DBT protocol and follow through. One example would be to have the listeners get used to the sound of each cable and then have them identify which cord is being used in DBT while the switch is made at random. Then tally up the results from each individual and come up with the percentages. If it's around 50%, it's a random guess.
Re: of course the cables can be hot-swapped
Believe it or not,knowing each other,none of the three of us will allow it to himself or the other two,to post false "results"just to foul any one of you guys,I hope ypu do not doubt that......SY?
aardvarkash10 said:
Believe it or not,knowing each other,none of the three of us will allow it to himself or the other two,to post false "results"just to foul any one of you guys,I hope ypu do not doubt that......SY?
I have no doubt thats the intent panicos
but I have no doubt that you will influence each other. Just pointing out that you WON'T implies a level of influence will be brought to bear. But good luck - as I said, it will still be fun and interesting.
but I have no doubt that you will influence each other. Just pointing out that you WON'T implies a level of influence will be brought to bear. But good luck - as I said, it will still be fun and interesting.
Re: of course the cables can be hot-swapped
Yes,parallel cables(for just a few seconds)is something we also thought of,but that would necessiate either a modification to the tt psu or a Y adaptor,that is another three connectors and two more short cables.We will however have a two-way outlet that will be fed directly from the MCB,which (mcb)is directly fed from the counter panel of the house supply.Power cable from counter panelto mcb and from mcb to two way outlet will be 12awg solid core,heavy shielding non-PVC insulation and OCC-A copper.Length of cable from counter panel to two way outlet is only 6.5 meters.All the house wiring will be by-passed.The two power cables will be on the two way outlet permanently,so their IEC sockets will be switched as quickly as possible on the IEC input of the tt psy.IMO the cleanest way to do it.
Actually the house wiring is already bypassed.This is the dedicated power line I use for my system.
aardvarkash10 said:
Yes,parallel cables(for just a few seconds)is something we also thought of,but that would necessiate either a modification to the tt psu or a Y adaptor,that is another three connectors and two more short cables.We will however have a two-way outlet that will be fed directly from the MCB,which (mcb)is directly fed from the counter panel of the house supply.Power cable from counter panelto mcb and from mcb to two way outlet will be 12awg solid core,heavy shielding non-PVC insulation and OCC-A copper.Length of cable from counter panel to two way outlet is only 6.5 meters.All the house wiring will be by-passed.The two power cables will be on the two way outlet permanently,so their IEC sockets will be switched as quickly as possible on the IEC input of the tt psy.IMO the cleanest way to do it.
Actually the house wiring is already bypassed.This is the dedicated power line I use for my system.
if you are going to do a listener test will you be using an air/con unit within the room to lower the air pressure on the listeners ear drums and speaker cones.
this technique is sometimes used in audio showrooms as well as testing.......................
this technique is sometimes used in audio showrooms as well as testing.......................
pointy said:
The A/C in my room is so close to the listening position that will simply mask low level information.Personally I mainly listen to low volumes so for me at least that would be disastrous.I don't know about the others,they can ask any volume they want.My system is mainly "tuned"for these volumes🙂 However,(do I hear you loughing?.....this could start a new thread🙂 ),an Acoustic Revive RR77 Schuman resonator is always on when I listen to music🙂
Panicos, you have to accept the fact that you've got a human brain. So do I. That's why I love conjuring, it's a beautiful reminder of how easy it is to fool myself unintentionally.
SY said:
It is perfectly logical and understood,that your brain as a scientist-and a very good one I must admit-wants you to have a proof for everything.If the issue was something that has been proven,then there would be no argument,it has been proven it is known.One day before the proof was found,there surely were arguments on that issue.Personally,I believe that we do not know all about everything,therefore I hope we learn more every day.To learn more though,scientists have to accept a few things too.Without their acceptance that there are more to learn,there is no progress.
BobM said:
Johan Potgieter said:
BobM,
It is not about convincing you that you do not hear differences. It is about two sets of facts. You mention 'all the proclamations in the world' - but note that there are also other proclamations. We have two sets of proclamations (see my post).
... and there is room for both - since the second set has also been proved as much as the first one. The problem arises when subjectivists claim that theirs necessarily dismisses the other one (not saying that you did). Mathematics are emotionless boring stuff; the only justification for its existence being that it shows what is, also meaning then what cannot be in reality, but not being dismissive about the second set of observations. Inability to grasp both these 'algorithms' so-to-speak leads to the often endless and rapidly degrading into pointless debates. Folks are arguing about two matters.
But please bear with me when I feel at a disadvantage. Scientists have explained ad nausiam the contents of my last two sentences above in order to present the whole picture, while subjectivists simply want to get away with the elitist proclamation 'we are right', blankly dismissing whatever does not agree with them. I would respectfully submit that such a playing field is not level?
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