As an active member of the New Jersey Audio Society for more then twenty years, I've been exposed to many audio systems ranging from modest to very complex and very expensive. Our members range from doctors, lawyers, engineers and regular blue collar types like me. But all of us have a keen interest in music and it's home reproduction.
At many of our monthly meetings, swapping componets and interconnects are done for comparison listening and evaluation on the host's system. A few times power cords were the subject of the day. Did I hear a difference? Not really. Even on the more exotic systems that were supposed to be highly revealing, I was hard pressed to hear much more then a teeny tiny difference. Some other listeners, however, readily heard changes to a new "audiophile" power cord. So much for my ears I guess. But I can hear differences in interconnects and some speaker cables.
Long ago I decided that some people are more sensitive, even hypersensitive, to things further removed from the signal path then I was. (where's my red pencil
) To argue about this is as futile as arguing politics or religion. It's all in the ear/brain of the listener. At one meeting we "listened" to fuses. Standard Littlefuse 3AGs compared to $30 German made exotic audiophile cartridge fuses. The hypersensitives claimed to hear a difference when the fuses were changed. I, of course, heard no difference. I often consider myself lucky to be insensitive to such miniscule subtleties. I can be musically satisfied easier, although I am quite sensitive to distortion.
One of the most complex and exotic systems I've heard belongs to Ralph Glasgal, the inventor of Ambiophonics. (google that word) With a myriad of electrostatic speakers, racks of SS amplifiers (all digital) and a mile of wire, I once said to him that it might sound better with tube amplifiers. He laughed as if I were joking. Little did he know. The picture below is his Ambiophonics lab & sound room taken from the 1st (of 2) balconies with a 40 foot ceiling. There are speakers on the balconies too. BTW, that's Ralph in the black tee shirt, top left. (2006) There's even more speakers today.
Victor
At many of our monthly meetings, swapping componets and interconnects are done for comparison listening and evaluation on the host's system. A few times power cords were the subject of the day. Did I hear a difference? Not really. Even on the more exotic systems that were supposed to be highly revealing, I was hard pressed to hear much more then a teeny tiny difference. Some other listeners, however, readily heard changes to a new "audiophile" power cord. So much for my ears I guess. But I can hear differences in interconnects and some speaker cables.
Long ago I decided that some people are more sensitive, even hypersensitive, to things further removed from the signal path then I was. (where's my red pencil
) To argue about this is as futile as arguing politics or religion. It's all in the ear/brain of the listener. At one meeting we "listened" to fuses. Standard Littlefuse 3AGs compared to $30 German made exotic audiophile cartridge fuses. The hypersensitives claimed to hear a difference when the fuses were changed. I, of course, heard no difference. I often consider myself lucky to be insensitive to such miniscule subtleties. I can be musically satisfied easier, although I am quite sensitive to distortion.One of the most complex and exotic systems I've heard belongs to Ralph Glasgal, the inventor of Ambiophonics. (google that word) With a myriad of electrostatic speakers, racks of SS amplifiers (all digital) and a mile of wire, I once said to him that it might sound better with tube amplifiers. He laughed as if I were joking. Little did he know. The picture below is his Ambiophonics lab & sound room taken from the 1st (of 2) balconies with a 40 foot ceiling. There are speakers on the balconies too. BTW, that's Ralph in the black tee shirt, top left. (2006) There's even more speakers today.
Victor
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Won't is probably closer to reality. Before the layoffs came there were close to 1000 engineers at the plant where I work. Only 3 had tube amps. I auditioned tube amps for plenty of (mostly young) engineers. Many flat did not like the sound, the walls didn't move. Others didn't care. Critical listening skills did not exist. In one case I substituted a SE tube amp into a friends HT system in place of the front 2 channels. We listened to some music, no one was impressed. A movie was played, again no one was impressed, but the cats ran and hid when the gunfire and the explosions started. The home owners had never seen this happen before! The humans weren't fooled but the cats were. WTF?
OK, here goes. I believe that there are audible quantities out there that can not be measured by the engineering community today with state of the art equipment. In the 40's we could measure THD, and with some certainty figure out which harmonics were the major offenders. It became obvious that THD was not the sole defining quantity of an amplifier, so we learned how to measure IMD. Now we understand TIM, and are learning about phase intermodulation distortion, yet we can not build a solid state amplifier with mega DSP power that sounds like a good 45 based tube amp. Why? What are we missing? There has to be something measurable that we are overlooking. Probably several somethings that will be discovered in time.
Agilent (formerly Hewlett Packard) had a seminar today to show us a fancy new network analyzer capable of measuring the "X parameters" of RF devices. This "new" parameter formerly existed only in the simulator. I am sure that even in todays economy they will sell several to the .gov and the . mil guys.
Will they find the missing link in the audio world? I doubt it. Why? Because there is no money to be made here. There is a fancy new audio analyzer coming to replace the old 8903, but the 8903 is 25 years old and the new one doesn't do that much more. 99.99 percent of the listening world is happy with their HT thunder boxes and ipods, no need for new science here.
I know that the Tubelab SE has the capabilities of resolving minute details. Dozens of satisfied users can attest to that (and yes some of them use very expensive cables). My CD player may or may not be up to the standards of many audiophiles. Ditto the speakers.
There is another variable that hasn't been mentioned here. I KNOW that my 56 year old ears do not have the resolving power that younger listeners have, and are worse off than most people my age. I have been to far too many rock concerts (including Jimi Hendrix and the Doors) and done to many Wile E. Coyote style stupid things in my younger years.
Does this mean that I can't experience the same musical enjoyment that you can. No of course not. Can I hear the difference between cheap parts and the good stuff? Yes, I bought the Electra Prints because they sound far better than the others, in my system through my ears. Ditto the AuriCaps. Can I tell the difference in power cords in MY system? I don't know, and I doubt I will find out, since there is no way I am spending that kind of coin.
I have taken the Tubelab SE to a friends listening room and connected it into some very expensive equipment that included high priced cables. Did it sound better than my home system? OH YEAH. Was it because of the cables? I don't know, we didn't swap, but I am betting on the speakers and the turntable. Did the Tubelab SE outperform the Simple SE? Yes, the difference was far more evident on the $10K+ Lowther based horns than on my $300 speakers. Did the Tubelab SE hold its own against the other amps in the room? Yes, it did.
It was also evident that different systems require different choices. I use the Simple SE in UL with CFB. That sounded gross on the 106db horns. Triode without feedback sounded far better to all listeners. Why? My speakers are 87db, and I tend to listen at a higher volume, that means at least 20 db (100X) more average power. I need 10+ watts here, but at his house the best sounding amps ran on 45's. The average power was far less than 1 watt.
Can I afford a $25K stereo system? No, not happening. So I will be content refining my "cheap" $700 system. The ultimate goal, would be to make it sound like the big $ system, is that likely? I doubt it, but I know that I need to start at the speakers, not the power cord.
As this poster pointed out and I tried to illustrate earlier, it is wise to build a balanced system. A $700 power cord MIGHT make a difference in a $25K system, but would be lost in a $700 system. Maybe nest time I visit the mega system, Ill bring along my 2 cent power cord, it should be obvious, right?
Such prophetic words pjanda1.
'I expect something to make a difference thefore I hear a difference.'
Versus
'I know there is no scientifically valid reason for something to make a difference therefore I can't hear a difference'.
Suggestion can, and does work both ways.
As is amply illustrated time and time again on threads like this....
Tubelab SE with OPT like the ones you have is a very revealing amp.tubelab.com said:
CD player you have also is a very revealing equipment due to its technology being where it is these days.
Yamaha studio monitor may leave little to desire compare to the above two gears but they (studio monitors) are design for accuracy due to their purpose. For that reason, it's a decent choice for comparing other components in chain.
To sum it up, I would consider your moderately priced system a revealing one. George, please don't forget that your labor cost went into Tubelab SE design and construction (including R&D) has not been factored in when you mentioned $600 ish price. It would be a lot higher if it did.
hiya mach1
"Suggestion can, and does work both ways."
Absolutely - hence my reliance on a blind test - better yet, double blind.
I'm not saying there is NO difference (although I am sceptical). I'm saying that just SAYING that YOU perceive a difference is not enough for recommending any action. Our original poster (remember them?) asked for advice. I'm merely suggesting the advice given be based on belief that is founded in logic and science, not religion and voodoo.
HAving said that, if you are enjoying your 700 dollar power cable, 2000 dollar interconnects and 550 dollar pyramid-shaped speakercable elevators good on ya!
"Suggestion can, and does work both ways."
Absolutely - hence my reliance on a blind test - better yet, double blind.
I'm not saying there is NO difference (although I am sceptical). I'm saying that just SAYING that YOU perceive a difference is not enough for recommending any action. Our original poster (remember them?) asked for advice. I'm merely suggesting the advice given be based on belief that is founded in logic and science, not religion and voodoo.
HAving said that, if you are enjoying your 700 dollar power cable, 2000 dollar interconnects and 550 dollar pyramid-shaped speakercable elevators good on ya!
As I re-read these posts I have changed my opinion. In the past I have counted on blind listening tests and listening tests that used measuring equipment and plotters to graph any differences.
I have been totally wrong. Do keep buying those $700 power cords, $2500 interconnects, and $6000 speaker wires.
Please do this and I can count on being able to continue to purchase my .50 computer power cord, my Radio Shack RCA patch cords, and my surplus 12ga speaker wire.
I have been totally wrong. Do keep buying those $700 power cords, $2500 interconnects, and $6000 speaker wires.
Please do this and I can count on being able to continue to purchase my .50 computer power cord, my Radio Shack RCA patch cords, and my surplus 12ga speaker wire.
I'm going to throw my $.02 into a thread that obviously could go on for YEARS without any real outcome.
#1. While it might seem "trivial" to some, changing the power cord WILL have an effect on sound. This effect may be "positive" or "negative" depending on all sorts of variables too numerous to discuss.
#2. As someone very early in the thread mentioned it is a relatively easy $20 "upgrade". Assuming that the rest of the circuit is in good working order, how possibly could reducing the resistance and capacitance of the power cable "hurt" peformance?
#3. I am still learning about tube amplification but my experience in the automotive and aviation fields has given me some interesting perspective on wiring in general.
Wire Gauge is most directly tied to Current Flow (more gauge more current before it goes "poof")
Solid Wire is more suited to AC (It has to do with electrons flowing in the outer "layer" of the conductor I can't remember the EXACT explanation)
Stranded wire obviously is needed where any vibration or motion is expected as a solid wire would "work harden" and break. (like working the tab on a soda can back and forth until it breaks off)
Most of the "laws" and "Norms" are created for SAFETY not neccesarily for "Quality" or "Performance".
so for instance I think that OVERALL a pure copper, higher gauge stranded power cable that is as short as possible is probably the best way to go.
To "steer" this thread back into a productive direction I wonder if we could all develop a logical set of criteria whereupon we could base a "test"?
"Subjective" and "Anecdotal" evidence however compelling it might be is not something I would "BET" on. Common sense would dictate that anything operating with a cord that is "undersized" might show some improvent if the cord were "upgraded" to something that was appropriate.
#1. While it might seem "trivial" to some, changing the power cord WILL have an effect on sound. This effect may be "positive" or "negative" depending on all sorts of variables too numerous to discuss.
#2. As someone very early in the thread mentioned it is a relatively easy $20 "upgrade". Assuming that the rest of the circuit is in good working order, how possibly could reducing the resistance and capacitance of the power cable "hurt" peformance?
#3. I am still learning about tube amplification but my experience in the automotive and aviation fields has given me some interesting perspective on wiring in general.
Wire Gauge is most directly tied to Current Flow (more gauge more current before it goes "poof")
Solid Wire is more suited to AC (It has to do with electrons flowing in the outer "layer" of the conductor I can't remember the EXACT explanation)
Stranded wire obviously is needed where any vibration or motion is expected as a solid wire would "work harden" and break. (like working the tab on a soda can back and forth until it breaks off)
Most of the "laws" and "Norms" are created for SAFETY not neccesarily for "Quality" or "Performance".
so for instance I think that OVERALL a pure copper, higher gauge stranded power cable that is as short as possible is probably the best way to go.
To "steer" this thread back into a productive direction I wonder if we could all develop a logical set of criteria whereupon we could base a "test"?
"Subjective" and "Anecdotal" evidence however compelling it might be is not something I would "BET" on. Common sense would dictate that anything operating with a cord that is "undersized" might show some improvent if the cord were "upgraded" to something that was appropriate.
hiya mach1
the you in my previous post was the broad, 3rd person you, not the specific 2nd person you! Sorry if I caused you any offence personally.
Ulike coldcathode, I am quite happy with subjective assessments, as long as they are reasonably free of measuring and observation bias. Like I said - get 50 people in a room with a setup, and repeatedly swap power cords quickly in a way that the audience cannot know which cord is in use, or indeed if ANY swap took place. Ask them to describe what they hear. Subjective, but reasonable and less open to bias. ANd gets to what we want to know - is there a difference that can be noticed and described?
the you in my previous post was the broad, 3rd person you, not the specific 2nd person you! Sorry if I caused you any offence personally.
Ulike coldcathode, I am quite happy with subjective assessments, as long as they are reasonably free of measuring and observation bias. Like I said - get 50 people in a room with a setup, and repeatedly swap power cords quickly in a way that the audience cannot know which cord is in use, or indeed if ANY swap took place. Ask them to describe what they hear. Subjective, but reasonable and less open to bias. ANd gets to what we want to know - is there a difference that can be noticed and described?
Some people question how the power cord could affect the sound. Most of the debate is focused on the ability of the power cord to deliver appropriate power to the amplifier. In all but the extreme cases there should be little differences among all well constructed cables since the electrical resistance and inductance in the power cord should be much less than the resistance and inductance of the supply side wiring.
Now lets consider another case. This is extreme, but a test I routinely subject my amps to. Short the input of your amp at the input connector, no cables. Plug your amp into a power strip, plug a corded electric power drill into the same power strip, pull the trigger. If the power supply in the amp has excellent isolation, you should hear nothing except maybe a pop on drill start up and shut down. Many amps will simply scream at this test. The lexan Tubelab SE mentioned previously is very quiet here even though it has no chassis or shielding.
Now connect your amp up to a source using interconnects. Intertwine the interconnects with the power cord. Fire up the drill again, hear anything different? Will the outcome be any different with better power cords and interconnects? I don't know since I have never tried.
What is going on here? The noise from the drill is both magnetic and electric. The electrical interference on the drill's power cord is mostly common mode, but there is some that will be radiated. Even if the amp is impervious, the interconnects may not be. Now not many of us will plug a power drill into the same outlet as their amp while they are listening to music, but the power lines are dirty, and getting dirtier every day. Some extra shielding on the power and interconnect cables along with a real power line filter wouldn't hurt. I have seen power cables with a braided metal shield over the internal cables. Ditto interconnects. I heve never tried them though.
I did spend several days playing with the FFT analyzer, a hair dryer, and the drill chasing noise out of my system. My system includes a computer based music player (no MP3's). It is a significant contributor to noise on the power line. So is the LCD monitor. I doubt that many people went to the effort that I did.
Perhaps the whole cable thing has nothing to do with delivering 60 (or 50) Hz and more to do with stopping everything else.
Now lets consider another case. This is extreme, but a test I routinely subject my amps to. Short the input of your amp at the input connector, no cables. Plug your amp into a power strip, plug a corded electric power drill into the same power strip, pull the trigger. If the power supply in the amp has excellent isolation, you should hear nothing except maybe a pop on drill start up and shut down. Many amps will simply scream at this test. The lexan Tubelab SE mentioned previously is very quiet here even though it has no chassis or shielding.
Now connect your amp up to a source using interconnects. Intertwine the interconnects with the power cord. Fire up the drill again, hear anything different? Will the outcome be any different with better power cords and interconnects? I don't know since I have never tried.
What is going on here? The noise from the drill is both magnetic and electric. The electrical interference on the drill's power cord is mostly common mode, but there is some that will be radiated. Even if the amp is impervious, the interconnects may not be. Now not many of us will plug a power drill into the same outlet as their amp while they are listening to music, but the power lines are dirty, and getting dirtier every day. Some extra shielding on the power and interconnect cables along with a real power line filter wouldn't hurt. I have seen power cables with a braided metal shield over the internal cables. Ditto interconnects. I heve never tried them though.
I did spend several days playing with the FFT analyzer, a hair dryer, and the drill chasing noise out of my system. My system includes a computer based music player (no MP3's). It is a significant contributor to noise on the power line. So is the LCD monitor. I doubt that many people went to the effort that I did.
Perhaps the whole cable thing has nothing to do with delivering 60 (or 50) Hz and more to do with stopping everything else.
If an undersized power cord was spec-ed for a tube receiver or cd player, that's the result of incompetent design. In that case, you've got to wonder how the rest of that component is designed. I'm not familiar with tube receivers but I have not heard of a cd player sold with undersized power cord (it ain't a current hungry device).coldcathode said:
Not having at first studied this thread because ..... - if I might still make a few comments at this late stage?
Sorry Kuroguy, no absurdity here; if your reply referred to the first quotation. It has to do with the psychology and physiology of the hearing process. (... and ignorance of this is what is very often at the root of honest arguments as in this thread - not specifically directed at you, Kuroguy.)
Amongst the wealth of hearing tests done over decades and refined as new measuring instruments came along, significant differences in folks' hearing characteristics have been recorded (J-AES amongst countless other reports). One's senses are influenced by one's mood, brain waves, biorythms, before/after a meal etc. - more so for some than with others. One does not even hear the same tone at the same frequency day after day! (Ask students of music - this is a whole subject on its own.)
The same science has by now established that there are not things about hearing (at least pertaining to reproduced music) that cannot also be represented by measurements. Yet again: Scientists do not know everything, but they do know certain things. If such knowledge is the basis for arguments that some hearing experiences are no more than subjective, then that is a realistic stance.
I also do not know why such (normal) subjectivity should be regarded as a 'shortcoming'! Our other senses are demonstrabily 'deceiving' (hot/cold, relative light, feeling etc.); but that is not the right term for it. More realistic is 'protection'. If e.g. hearing was not capable of adjustment to loudness (such as in up to 1000-fold!) life would be unbearable. Same as if our eyes could not adjust to ..... etc. etc. All our senses are sometimes marvellously sensitive (feeling, touch, minute light in the dark ...) but often poor measuring devices. Why that is so difficult to accept, or even seen as derogatory in some arguments I have difficulty to grasp.
By Tubelab:
Because amplifiers like that have enough added quantities of benign harmonics (e.g. 2nd and 3rd) to make them sound 'richer' than blameless amplifiers. (This has also been demonstrated consistently by measurements.)
Does that make them bad? Not really! Define 'bad'. If that is one's preference and the money spent is (hopefully) one's own, fine! One may disagree about terms of description, but not about taste.
For me that is about it. "Not to sound to good nor talk too wise" (from the poem "IF", by Rudyard Kipling) - simply an iota of the wealth of knowledge out there that one is privileged to have gained.
[To be naughty: As said by others, I would still like to have it explained to me how one's 3m of special mains cable in series with a power line of ordinary materials say 30+km long, can make a difference. With that logic - and if Kirchoff's Laws still hold - placing this 3m cable in series with the power line at the power station should make the same difference (because current flows in a circle; no matter which series elements come in what order). Do we believe that? Oh yes ... and in series with 20 - 60 meters odd of the relatively thin ordinary copper wire windings in the power transformer. No electrical knowledge required here, just logic. Am I sarcastic? Not at all - see above.)
Apology for long post.
Ty_Bower said:
kuroguy said:
Sorry Kuroguy, no absurdity here; if your reply referred to the first quotation. It has to do with the psychology and physiology of the hearing process. (... and ignorance of this is what is very often at the root of honest arguments as in this thread - not specifically directed at you, Kuroguy.)
Amongst the wealth of hearing tests done over decades and refined as new measuring instruments came along, significant differences in folks' hearing characteristics have been recorded (J-AES amongst countless other reports). One's senses are influenced by one's mood, brain waves, biorythms, before/after a meal etc. - more so for some than with others. One does not even hear the same tone at the same frequency day after day! (Ask students of music - this is a whole subject on its own.)
The same science has by now established that there are not things about hearing (at least pertaining to reproduced music) that cannot also be represented by measurements. Yet again: Scientists do not know everything, but they do know certain things. If such knowledge is the basis for arguments that some hearing experiences are no more than subjective, then that is a realistic stance.
I also do not know why such (normal) subjectivity should be regarded as a 'shortcoming'! Our other senses are demonstrabily 'deceiving' (hot/cold, relative light, feeling etc.); but that is not the right term for it. More realistic is 'protection'. If e.g. hearing was not capable of adjustment to loudness (such as in up to 1000-fold!) life would be unbearable. Same as if our eyes could not adjust to ..... etc. etc. All our senses are sometimes marvellously sensitive (feeling, touch, minute light in the dark ...) but often poor measuring devices. Why that is so difficult to accept, or even seen as derogatory in some arguments I have difficulty to grasp.
By Tubelab:
Because amplifiers like that have enough added quantities of benign harmonics (e.g. 2nd and 3rd) to make them sound 'richer' than blameless amplifiers. (This has also been demonstrated consistently by measurements.)
Does that make them bad? Not really! Define 'bad'. If that is one's preference and the money spent is (hopefully) one's own, fine! One may disagree about terms of description, but not about taste.
For me that is about it. "Not to sound to good nor talk too wise" (from the poem "IF", by Rudyard Kipling) - simply an iota of the wealth of knowledge out there that one is privileged to have gained.
[To be naughty: As said by others, I would still like to have it explained to me how one's 3m of special mains cable in series with a power line of ordinary materials say 30+km long, can make a difference. With that logic - and if Kirchoff's Laws still hold - placing this 3m cable in series with the power line at the power station should make the same difference (because current flows in a circle; no matter which series elements come in what order). Do we believe that? Oh yes ... and in series with 20 - 60 meters odd of the relatively thin ordinary copper wire windings in the power transformer. No electrical knowledge required here, just logic. Am I sarcastic? Not at all - see above.)
Apology for long post.
Sorry Johan. I didn't mean to say that I didn't agree with what you were saying. In fact, I strongly believe that the mind can interpret sounds/vibrations differently at different times and in particular, when the listener is feeling differently. The absurd part (in my opinion) is that some will make a change such as a power cord and then state unequivocably, that it does in fact make a difference, even though there have been no tests that prove it. I believe that if you were to do a blind test with some of these folks you would find that, in the long run, they were able to pick the expensive cord over the standard one 50% of the time. I can get those exact results with the help if a flipped coin and it will only cost me the price of the coin.
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