What is real and proven is human bias, specifically confirmation bias, rejection of disconfirming evidence without effortful thought, and so on.
Also what is real and proven are a sufficient number of physical mechanisms by way of which power cords could conceivably affect sound (and affect certain measurements). What is not already 'proven' is whether or not the whole chain of known physical effects can lead to audible differences due to power cords under practical conditions.
Some people claim to have heard differences in power cords that correlated with measurements and that were remedied by a power inlet filter. In that case it was not in the context of marketing power cords nor of marketing power inlet filters. It was just an EE troubleshooting problem. It wasn't even to sell EMI consulting services. So why would it be be so suspect?
I'm confused, you said..
So in reply, you post this..
So, did you do the recording of that youtube video? (you know, the "I" bit in the "I did that" part of the sentence)
So in reply, you post this..
Which is a post, posted by some one else of a youtube video done by some one else.
So, did you do the recording of that youtube video? (you know, the "I" bit in the "I did that" part of the sentence)
Obviously.
It was the one Rick posted that I listened to. I asked people to listen to it and describe the differences between the A and B sound examples. Can't hear a difference? Fine. Say so. Can hear a difference? Okay, how would you describe it?
Why am I asking? To see if we have any common ability to describe sounds. What good is it if I post some coupling cap sounds and people can't verbalize what they hear that's different? Then there is nothing to discuss. There is nothing to predict. Can we agree on some common language and do we hear close enough to the same to have any kind of meaningful discussion? To start to find out, let's try a test run with the A and B example sounds from that video. Fine to PM me with descriptions instead of post if you want.
It may help to keep in mind that 'Descriptive Analysis' is a well known sensory evaluation method. Please see the attached for more info.
As I said - there is little real evidence. We're all open minded about it, pending good data. You are the one showing confirmation bias, in the way you phrase things.
If you can see it, you are probably right (at least that I am one of the ones, like everyone else is -- you too). To me, I seem quite objective. At least I'm not in denial about it 🙂
"The age old argument. Its silly. Of course cables affect your rig. Because they can EQ it. Depending on how they are constructed the speaker cables can roll off frequencies same with interconnect. With power cable according to the school books, it should not make a difference. But when you consider the power supply is responsible for much of the components noise due to leakage current. Leakage current gets on the signal ground causing l sorts of issues, so if you just think about the last 5 feet of power wire to your component as an AC filter then it will make sense that all the wire in the wall out to the pole, Etc does not matter. Its filtered on the last 5 feet. in the last part of the vid we try RCA interconnects and speaker cables." - OCD Guy
Here is another person trying different power cables. Do you hear a difference between them?
Actually it's 'here is another person either trying to sell something or monetise his youtube channel with clickbait'.
Given the measurements done over the years on coupling capacitors by many people including the late Cyril Bateman I would say NOT OBVIOUS and in the same bucket as 'silver cables sound bright'. For filters there are differences that even Self rights about in his books between dielectrics, but for DC blocking there is merely anecdote.
And yet neither you nor Rick have listed these 'real and proven' things. I've tried to steer the converstation a few times but there seems no interest. On a DIY forum people saying that the answer is to spend $$$ on an assembly from shysters isn't in the spirit of things (not you I hasten to add, I blame you for other stuff 😛)
Seems that you and Rick don’t recognize how that video burns to ashes stories about alleged sound change that 'we don’t know how to measure’. It does the same for ‘you simply don’t have ability to hear’ and ‘your equipment is not resolving enough’.
If we accept that three different sound sequences represent changes introduced by premium power cords, then:
- Large difference in tonal balance between A and B samples, where A sample has brighter sound, is impossible without being easily measurable. Either harmonics distribution or frequency response! Samples B to C listening comparison reveals much less differences.
- As I easily hear difference in the referenced video, I qualify as ‘able to hear’.
- My system does not hide or mask sound difference in audio samples, so it is resolving enough.
Nothing at all.
I can’t hear what does not exist and my system is engineered well enough that it doesn’t care if connected to power socket with 1 m or 21 m long power cord.
I think I have. A lot of it is covered in Electromagnetic Compatibility literature. There are also app notes about EMI/RFI sensitivity in opamp input stages and or in protection diodes. It should also be obvious that a power cord with a shield can act like an RF filter in a way that's different from simple twisted pair. None of that sort of physical stuff is controversial in and of itself, is it?
What is controversial is whether or not power cords acting as AC line input filters, and or as useful loads for noise emissions from inside power amps, do so to such an extent that there can in some cases be plainly audible effects (good or bad). That would be one way of describing the controversial part wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?
Looking for what exactly, HD/IMD? Baseline noise? Something else?
Since coupling caps can IME sound different, must be something that nobody thought to measure and or that doesn't show up very well in some commonly used test. This brings us back to the question of exactly what was looked for over the years?
Pretty good answer, but with a couple of comments:
1. You forgot to measure for something other than HD or FR. What is it?
2. You merely described tonal balance difference. Is that the most precise and detailed you can be about what exactly sounds different to you? What instruments, under what musical conditions, sound different in what way, etc.? Where we are going, if I record something, will at some point require some willingness to give attention to details, not just to gross effects. Can you do it? Are you willing to listen with "a fine tooth comb" -- i.e. nitpick? (sorry for the mixed metaphor 🙂 )
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Whatever it is, it should be measurable with that clear sound difference.
I could go in more details but what for? Would you please review my contribution to this thread with precise measurements, detailed description of conditions and equipment used and explanation of mechanism through which power cord can influence sound of some equipment.
In return, we have claims that all equipment sounds different with different power cords and that’s it.
Asking for description of equipment conditions or sound change we receive:
I’m not the ‘side’ that should put more effort.
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Here is a serious attempt to find measurable differences between power cords that could be audible. And none were found. Pretty much puts this whole debate to rest.
AudioQuest NRG-X3 AC Power Cord Review (Video) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
AudioQuest NRG-X3 AC Power Cord Review (Video) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
True believers will never miss a beat or have a doubt. Sadly that is a given and debate will never end.
IMHO use a decent quality materials and construction power cord and be pretty darn sure it isn't going to limit your audio any auditable amount.
Screened 3 core is a few bucks a meter. Discuss how someone if they want to can build their own screened cable and test. Don't support people selling multi thousand dollar cables. As for them acting as a line input filter. These start again at $10 so why bother with an expensive cable. AND if Pano and others are right then first you need to find the source of the noise and filter that. Glomming in a second hand car's worth of marketing prose just cos someone on youtube said to do so is frankly daft. Supporting people who promote that and using opamp design guides to support that is beyond my limited comprehension.
in what application? This is VERY important to the discussion unless you are trying to wear us down and say 'sod it yes bigfoot is real and capacitors do have a sound'?
Such as? and is it within 30dB of the accepted upper limit of human audibility? Why have any of the true believers ever bothered to come up with a hypothesis to test.
People talk about open minds. The funny things is that those who can 'hear' all this stuff seem very closed to the idea they are deluded and prefer to chuck bricks at people who understand the physics and are willing to consider a credible argument.
I asked for what exactly, HD? Something else?
Also, was there some calculation used in the analysis that assumed strong ear/brain LTI behavior?
Just like I say to Rick Miller, we need details. Please, what are the details?
You are the one making extraordinary claims, you have to come up with the credible mechanism.
Agree. And I think there is something measurable that should not be overlooked. Hopefully, someone will say what is is and how to measure it so I don't have to.
Fair enough. For me it goes back to here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/power-conditioners-and-cords.391921/post-7231631
People have been trying for a long time to start with things like FFT measurements, often assuming if typical analysis shows nothing then there is nothing. However by now we should hopefully all know there are limitations and assumptions with typical 'figure of merit' FFT analysis. So maybe people have been putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. Maybe they were asking the wrong question first, and maybe asking in that way tends to result in too many baked in assumptions about what needs to be measured, how it should be measured, how to make sense of results, etc. OTOH if you know a priori there is an audible effect, then there is reason think harder before just taking a simple measurement and calling it done.
So IMHO maybe that brings us back to the issue raised at: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/power-conditioners-and-cords.391921/post-7231715
Can we use established sensory analysis methods to chip away at the audibility question? Is our only recourse the very difficult, expensive, and time consuming DBT ABX? If we want to find out if was can get anywhere with sensory analysis methods, we need at least a few people willing to participate in serious listening and discussion. I would expect it to start out trivially easy and require more effort as differences get smaller. So far nobody at all has offered any kind of detailed description of what differences they hear in the power cable YouTube video to which I referred. Not here nor by PM. Thus so far this is a totally failed and useless path to go down. When I offered to record some sounds, I said to prove you are qualified to listen to gross differences first. Nobody has qualified yet. One person, you, described 'large differences in tonal balance.' Thank you for being the first one to either be not too lazy to bother with listening at all, or else for being the only one having the courage to say anything at all about the sound. I mean it.
However, I was hoping for more. If what you did, and thank you for that, but if its all the more anyone is willing to do, then there is zero point in me wasting my time to record anything. Why should I do it if not one person will listen seriously and at least try to describe in detail what the differences sound like to them? It will be impossible to get anywhere by seeing if we can chip away at the audibility question (as described in one of the above linked posts) by way of descriptive analysis if there will not be any serious participation by anyone at all. Again, the deal I offered was show me you are qualified to hear gross differences first, then maybe I will do something for you. Do you want the deal or not? If so, then I will make at least an equally serious effort to do my part in return.
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