SimontY said:
Please could you briefly explain what benefits this would have to a PC motherboard? I mentioned it to a friend who's very interested in overclocking and performance, and he believes it is stupid to change caps, if they perform adaquately already. Please educate us
(Sorry its off-topic)
I re-did a ATI Radeon 8500 VGA board with all os-con instead of all the thru-hole and surface mount tantalum and electrolytic caps. Every single last one of them. Quite expensive to do. I recieved the board for free when I was doing beta testing for ATI, so killing it was no financial hardship.
The 8500 board performed 20% faster than a stock 8500..and this with no VGA acceleration software in use. It just operated 20% faster. I used the VGA card for analog output into Highly modified CRT projectors (Electrohome Marquee 8000, with about 400 components swapped out, and silver teflon woven yoke wiring, etc).
Square waves are the most difficult signal in existence to reproduce. They demand more from a power supply than any other signal. Music signal's demand on a PS is a joke in comparison. A square wave goes from DC to lightspeed, and back again. RF drops from the lack, or better controlled back EMF, so to speak, from the square wave itself (mass considerations! The cleaner the PS, the less the RF, thus less heat.) when using a good PS, like one with OS-CON buffers.
The computer runs cooler, faster, cleaner, etc.
Kuei Yang Wang said:
Maby this is why EVERY Sony SACD player I've heard (including the SCD1, 777, 333, etc.) sound HORRIBLE to me when playing CDs.
The bass is so loose as a mad cow
and, of course, it affects everything: mids, treble, soundstage...Sincerely, I can't figure ou why some reputed reviewers/magazines say that these Sony SACD players make a very good job when playing CDs.
Are they being payed to say so?
Err, sorry, but to say I'm rather skeptical is putting it mildly.
The board was "faster" in what way exactly? Are you trying to tell me that the maximum refresh rate at a particular resolution was higher? Or that you got a higher FPS in a particular benchmark? Or something else? (in which case what?)
Err, what? What does this mean? What "speed" is DC.
I'm sure my computer would love to "run cleaner" - and it would save me having to get so dusty and dirty when i go in it.
How do you expect anyone to believe anything else that you have posted when this is so clearly total fiction?
For anyone interested in the replacing of caps on a PC Motherboard I can suggest you take a look at http://www.overclockers.com/tips469/
battery power for analog output stage
All,
I am toying with the idea of using a 12V, 1.3Ah SLA battery for the output stage (the same battery that is used in the Ack!dAck).
The battery powered 12V would replace the V+12A rail, feeding the opamp IC, the Vref circuit, and it goes through a 78M05 regulator to make V+5A, which feeds the analog section of the DSD1791 DAC.
I plan to remove all multichannel dacs and opamps, which also use the V+12A rail. I am only using this machine for 2-channel.
I was thinking that I could build a small relay board that is controlled by the P_CONT signal (aka the standby/on signal that also feeds the SMPS), so when the player is turned off, the battery will be switched to charge mode. Also, if this player is turned on and not in use for a certain amount of time (maybe 20 min?), it automatically goes into standby.
The 12V rail also feeds the 16M Flash ROM, but I'll just use the 12V rail from the SMPS for this and only this.
I think that a battery powered 12V rail will result in the best sound for the analog output section, am I'm sure if I am only powering 2-channels, I should get 4 or more hours of playback between charges. Just like the Ack!dAck, the charging is nice and quick.
I also want to build a small relay board that will replace the muting transistor section that follows the opamp IC. This would eliminate 440 ohms (two 220 ohm resistors) from the output path, along with the transistors and and should sound better.
C245 and C246 will be replaced with BG NX caps. Do you think I can get much improvement from replacing the stock opamp IC (Rohm BA4560) with a Burr-Brown or Analog Devices instead? I have the tools to deal with surface mount chips, so it should be easy enough.
I should be getting my digikey package today, so I can start tweaking tonight
Thanks for your feedback!
Vinnie
All,
I am toying with the idea of using a 12V, 1.3Ah SLA battery for the output stage (the same battery that is used in the Ack!dAck).
The battery powered 12V would replace the V+12A rail, feeding the opamp IC, the Vref circuit, and it goes through a 78M05 regulator to make V+5A, which feeds the analog section of the DSD1791 DAC.
I plan to remove all multichannel dacs and opamps, which also use the V+12A rail. I am only using this machine for 2-channel.
I was thinking that I could build a small relay board that is controlled by the P_CONT signal (aka the standby/on signal that also feeds the SMPS), so when the player is turned off, the battery will be switched to charge mode. Also, if this player is turned on and not in use for a certain amount of time (maybe 20 min?), it automatically goes into standby.
The 12V rail also feeds the 16M Flash ROM, but I'll just use the 12V rail from the SMPS for this and only this.
I think that a battery powered 12V rail will result in the best sound for the analog output section, am I'm sure if I am only powering 2-channels, I should get 4 or more hours of playback between charges. Just like the Ack!dAck, the charging is nice and quick.
I also want to build a small relay board that will replace the muting transistor section that follows the opamp IC. This would eliminate 440 ohms (two 220 ohm resistors) from the output path, along with the transistors and and should sound better.
C245 and C246 will be replaced with BG NX caps. Do you think I can get much improvement from replacing the stock opamp IC (Rohm BA4560) with a Burr-Brown or Analog Devices instead? I have the tools to deal with surface mount chips, so it should be easy enough.
I should be getting my digikey package today, so I can start tweaking tonight
Thanks for your feedback!
Vinnie
I'm not saying that KBK is wrong, I'll just say that I would be greatly surprised if replacing any of the components on the board of a graphics card for components of the same rating (but higher quality) would make any difference whatsoever to the performance of the card. By performance I mean the score it attains in benchmark x before and after, not how stable/accurate the voltage rails are.
Bearing in mind that it is the CPU (GPU if you prefer) which is doing all the work, you can simply refer to the data sheet to find out the performance of the chip at a certain clock frequency. Unless you altered the clock frequency of the chip, this performance would not change. It is as simple as that. All you have to do is provide the chip with voltages within a certain tolerance. Again, getting more and more accurate voltage rails will not make a blind bit of difference as long as you are always within the rated tolerance. This is not a hi-fi, coloration of the signal is not a factor, we are talking serious digital I/O. Of course, if you happened to change one of the components in some way which increased the clock to the chip by accident, this could account for your 20% increase
Oh, and for your square wave talk...what are you raving on about?! Since when does a power supply generate square waves? I think you'll find the Radeon chip will run on something like +5V / +10V DC. The only square waves you are going to see are the ones produced by the chip itself, and still these need not be overly accurate since most discrete components will not have to see a square wave, just the rising edge - the 'corners' of the square can be as ragged as you like. But, if you say that changing a few caps provided your graphics card with a special Santa Claus style flying Reindeer dose of magic voltage, thus upping your performance, who am I to say you might be a little wrong?
Mike.
Bearing in mind that it is the CPU (GPU if you prefer) which is doing all the work, you can simply refer to the data sheet to find out the performance of the chip at a certain clock frequency. Unless you altered the clock frequency of the chip, this performance would not change. It is as simple as that. All you have to do is provide the chip with voltages within a certain tolerance. Again, getting more and more accurate voltage rails will not make a blind bit of difference as long as you are always within the rated tolerance. This is not a hi-fi, coloration of the signal is not a factor, we are talking serious digital I/O. Of course, if you happened to change one of the components in some way which increased the clock to the chip by accident, this could account for your 20% increase
Oh, and for your square wave talk...what are you raving on about?! Since when does a power supply generate square waves? I think you'll find the Radeon chip will run on something like +5V / +10V DC. The only square waves you are going to see are the ones produced by the chip itself, and still these need not be overly accurate since most discrete components will not have to see a square wave, just the rising edge - the 'corners' of the square can be as ragged as you like. But, if you say that changing a few caps provided your graphics card with a special Santa Claus style flying Reindeer dose of magic voltage, thus upping your performance, who am I to say you might be a little wrong?
Mike.
I sort of started that, I apologise. Indeed, someone could start a new thread, in the category 'everything else' perhaps. I am enjoying reading about progress on modding the 563A I intend to buy a player like this at some point (for its SACD part), and it's good to know people are tucking into the task of making it sound good
I intend to buy a player like this at some point (for its SACD part), and it's good to know people are tucking into the task of making it sound good 
Konnichiwa,
There is no real alternative. There are some natural resin based lacquers that do SOME of the things C37 does but not as well and in the cases of some key areas not at all.
I'm not going to debate the price, that's what it costs. Compared to a pair of Fancy Interconnects the lacquer is cheap and will make a much larger and more positive impact on your system.
Of course, a true DIY'er does not use ready mixed lacquer but experiemnts with ground up bones and violin lacquer untill he has something that suits his taste, has several bad burns from mixing Violin Lacquer and spend at least the same amount on supplies a simple bottle of the ready stuff would have cost. But that is part of fun I'm being told.
For a perspective on C37, try my review....
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm
You need to scroll down a little.
Sayonara
SimontY said:Those prices are ridiculous. If someone knows of a similar lacquer, a realistic alternative, please do tell.
There is no real alternative. There are some natural resin based lacquers that do SOME of the things C37 does but not as well and in the cases of some key areas not at all.
I'm not going to debate the price, that's what it costs. Compared to a pair of Fancy Interconnects the lacquer is cheap and will make a much larger and more positive impact on your system.
Of course, a true DIY'er does not use ready mixed lacquer but experiemnts with ground up bones and violin lacquer untill he has something that suits his taste, has several bad burns from mixing Violin Lacquer and spend at least the same amount on supplies a simple bottle of the ready stuff would have cost. But that is part of fun I'm being told.
For a perspective on C37, try my review....
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm
You need to scroll down a little.
Sayonara
OK. we've been asked to take it elsewhere. The rebuttal: Cooler, faster, etc. Hmmm.. A signal is only as fast as it's power supply. As for the board being faster, there was great variation in the Radeon boards of the time, some where faster than others in overall frame rate capacity/ability. This one, with the new caps (it was never benched beforehand, lets be truthful here) measured notably faster than any other 8500 that particular store had seen. About 20% was their estimate. They believed, they saw it, and they had experience with the card. Something about "Mad Onions" as far as the benching test software name went.
I keep trying to say more, but all it will do is cause a ruckus. I have to keep editing this post!
Ok. I will say this though: So you use a OS-Con in a clocking circuit.
Why? I mean, really.....why?
As for the rest of it....I'm just going to let it sit, as it is probably only going to get ugly. How about you guys?
"Blessed are the cheesemakers...."-Life of Brian.
I keep trying to say more, but all it will do is cause a ruckus. I have to keep editing this post!
Ok. I will say this though: So you use a OS-Con in a clocking circuit.
Why? I mean, really.....why?
As for the rest of it....I'm just going to let it sit, as it is probably only going to get ugly. How about you guys?
"Blessed are the cheesemakers...."-Life of Brian.
Hello,
Kuei
Thanks for the insight WRT to the C37. I enjoyed reading your review. I hope it doesn't really have crushed up bones in it!!
KBK
Thanks for clearing that up.
"Mad Onions" - that'll be Futuremark/Mad Onion 3DMark. http://www.futuremark.com/
On topic again...
Has anyone had a listen to or a look inside the replacement Pioneer model, as it looks like this one has been discontinued? (apologies for not remembering the new model no.!)
Kuei
Thanks for the insight WRT to the C37. I enjoyed reading your review. I hope it doesn't really have crushed up bones in it!!
KBK
Thanks for clearing that up.
"Mad Onions" - that'll be Futuremark/Mad Onion 3DMark. http://www.futuremark.com/
On topic again...
Has anyone had a listen to or a look inside the replacement Pioneer model, as it looks like this one has been discontinued? (apologies for not remembering the new model no.!)
KBK
Thank you for your honest reply. The be all and end all is that there were no controlled test conditions, and so the 20% difference was obviously due to a change of some other factor ie. driver version, OS, directX version, different CPU, etc. I only queried the claim when it appeared that you were claiming a 20% improvement from changing caps, which clearly you aren't claiming because you don't have enough information. I would advise anyone reading the thread that replacing any components on their motherboard or expansion cards is expensive, very difficult, will void their warranties, and will probably have no impact at all on a stable system. Removing components from old PC hardware for use in your hi-fi however, is probably quite a worthwhile task.
Enjoy those hi-fidelity sounds, and sorry for hi-jacking this thread.
Jon
Thank you for your honest reply. The be all and end all is that there were no controlled test conditions, and so the 20% difference was obviously due to a change of some other factor ie. driver version, OS, directX version, different CPU, etc. I only queried the claim when it appeared that you were claiming a 20% improvement from changing caps, which clearly you aren't claiming because you don't have enough information. I would advise anyone reading the thread that replacing any components on their motherboard or expansion cards is expensive, very difficult, will void their warranties, and will probably have no impact at all on a stable system. Removing components from old PC hardware for use in your hi-fi however, is probably quite a worthwhile task.
Enjoy those hi-fidelity sounds, and sorry for hi-jacking this thread.
Jon
SimontY said:
Simon, where did you hear that the 563A has been discontinued?
This is news to me. It seems to be selling well, so why are they coming out with a new model already?
All,
I finished tweaking the power supply board and am really impressed with the improvements. I want to spend some more time listening, and then I will report back with all the things that I did to it.
My Black Gate NX Hi-Q caps came in yesterday, so I am looking forward to using them to replace the ones after the opamps (decoupling).
Has anyone else made any progress recently?
-Vinnie
My friend who wants to buy one said so, so I don't know for sure, until I ask him how *he* knows!Vinnie R. said:
Simon, where did you hear that the 563A has been discontinued?
This is news to me. It seems to be selling well, so why are they coming out with a new model already?
I searched on Google.co.uk for it, and it was missing from the shopping sites. The replacement has already had a good review, and costs more than the 563A. My friend noticed that it still sells in the US... (old stock? different marketing?)
JonScaife said:
But the 563 was brand new, I thought? Not even a full model run?
As for coatings, etc, we design coatings over here...you know. 4800..no..now about 5000...over the past 10 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon... you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of:
Conclusions without evidence.
I fully realise there are other factors here, as in if the PC hardware is designed and set to run only so fast, and then no more, as it is not analog. Ie, extended HF due to greater transient current delivery or lower Imp. at HF for the analog circuit.
But when you speed up digital circuits, and push them to failure, start adjusting wait states, etc... then it might be shown to be of more use.
?
KBK said:
But the 563 was brand new, I thought? Not even a full model run?
As for coatings, etc, we design coatings over here...you know. 4800..no..now about 5000...over the past 10 years.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Jon... you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of:
Conclusions without evidence.
I fully realise there are other factors here, as in if the PC hardware is designed and set to run only so fast, and then no more, as it is not analog. Ie, extended HF due to greater transient current delivery or lower Imp. at HF for the analog circuit.
But when you speed up digital circuits, and push them to failure, start adjusting wait states, etc... then it might be shown to be of more use.
?
I couldn't resist:
Today I talked to a friend of mine who works as a design/project manager at ATI. I told him about the discussion of speeding up a video card by 20% by replacing caps on the card with a better type and no overclocking. He told me to get his name, he wants to hire him as part of the design team.
Maybe they'll achieve an easy 20% increase in speed just by doing that and get ahead of the competition in no time.lol GregGC
KBK - Not only has GregGC kindly provided some very healthy evidence (which I had already assumed was the case - it doesn't take a great leap of imagination), i was in posession of ample evidence, i call it a combination of experience and common sense.
If i told you i could make your car go 20% faster by removing the radio would you believe me? Do you have any test evidence to the contrary? I doubt it. But i'm sure you'll agree that it wouldn't happen.
I'm sorry if i'm being a bit harsh, and i'm sorry for jacking the thread, but i do get very irritated when people make totally outrageous claims and don't get challenged. It seems to happen a LOT on diyaudio and i couldn't stay quiet any longer.
On the subject of the 563A - it still seems to exist in the US, but Pioneer Europe doesn't list it. they have a 565A instead. I can't find a single online retailer selling the 563A in the UK. Did Pioneer EVER sell the 563A in Europe?
Vinnie & KBK being in North America can probably still get it, but I'd guess its not available over here.
Good luck modding it guys
KBK - Not only has GregGC kindly provided some very healthy evidence (which I had already assumed was the case - it doesn't take a great leap of imagination), i was in posession of ample evidence, i call it a combination of experience and common sense.
If i told you i could make your car go 20% faster by removing the radio would you believe me? Do you have any test evidence to the contrary? I doubt it. But i'm sure you'll agree that it wouldn't happen.
I'm sorry if i'm being a bit harsh, and i'm sorry for jacking the thread, but i do get very irritated when people make totally outrageous claims and don't get challenged. It seems to happen a LOT on diyaudio and i couldn't stay quiet any longer.
On the subject of the 563A - it still seems to exist in the US, but Pioneer Europe doesn't list it. they have a 565A instead. I can't find a single online retailer selling the 563A in the UK. Did Pioneer EVER sell the 563A in Europe?
Vinnie & KBK being in North America can probably still get it, but I'd guess its not available over here.
Good luck modding it guys
All we can say though, is that it did it's intended job, of cleaning up the PS on the board concerning the RGB amps. If I had a block diagram of the card I might have been able to get to what I needed with less work, but I just repalced everything since I had the caps lying about. Lotsa work... Best looking VGA out I've seen, by a long shot. Just for DVD on a PC. Who cares about games.... OK. thanks for chiming in. As I said, there was a noted variance in the speed of the ATI 8500's of the time, is my recollection. I also DID recieve that unit as a Beta tester, so maybe it was a hand selected rigner....?
OK. thanks for chiming in. As I said, there was a noted variance in the speed of the ATI 8500's of the time, is my recollection. I also DID recieve that unit as a Beta tester, so maybe it was a hand selected rigner....?- Status
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