^ The only place I would use a bipolar electrolytic capacitor, is big caps in speaker filters.
Very interesting article from Cyril Bateman : https://linearaudio.nl/sites/linearaudio.net/files/Bateman%20EW%2011%202002%20mar%202003%20caps%20100%20nF%20to%201uF.pdf
PP & PPS best , PET ok in some cases.
Thanks Mark Tillotson.
Very interesting article from Cyril Bateman : https://linearaudio.nl/sites/linearaudio.net/files/Bateman%20EW%2011%202002%20mar%202003%20caps%20100%20nF%20to%201uF.pdf
PP & PPS best , PET ok in some cases.
Thanks Mark Tillotson.
I'm not going to badmouth electrolytic capacitors . I've been very happy with my old CD , DAT and MD players and they have electrolytics on their line as well as HP output. My mp3 player was lauded as one of the best at that time . (Cowon D2)
I wasn't that happy with it , even before I found out that it has 220uF 4V in SMD on it's output! I'm just not using them in audio path. Prejudice ? Maybe.
When I test leakage current of electrolytics , depending on its size , it goes from 100's of nA to tens of uA, yet a filled up cap with 25 V , still has 22V on it after a few days . I know caps like nichicon Es will be much better , but they're still electrolytics , so when I have a choice it will be PP or PPS .
I wasn't that happy with it , even before I found out that it has 220uF 4V in SMD on it's output! I'm just not using them in audio path. Prejudice ? Maybe.
When I test leakage current of electrolytics , depending on its size , it goes from 100's of nA to tens of uA, yet a filled up cap with 25 V , still has 22V on it after a few days . I know caps like nichicon Es will be much better , but they're still electrolytics , so when I have a choice it will be PP or PPS .
I think polypropylene caps (russian K78-2) are not the best.
I have started to attract hi-end audio community to various film (including PET(P)) caps from 2006, after my own listening tests, when I have published on russian well-known site Vegalab.ru the hit-list of sound quality of russian made caps.
??????????? ???????? ????????????? - ???????? 5
As I understand, here on diyaudio.com the interest to russian-made PET caps K73-17, K73016 etc. were also started (or gained) from my posts there?
See for example the thread:
Petp Capacitors-one Of The Best?
Now the secret:
Russian-made COMBINED caps, made from PET+paper - ARE even BETTER than PET.
Repeat: combined capacitors K75-10 = PET+paper are better then just simple PET capacitors K73-17, K73-16 etc.
Polypropilene (K78-xxx) are next in sound quality.
P.S. To be precise, mica capacitors are the best, but they are limited to 0.047uF (47 nF).
The disadvantage of combined K75-10 caps is bigger size.
I have started to attract hi-end audio community to various film (including PET(P)) caps from 2006, after my own listening tests, when I have published on russian well-known site Vegalab.ru the hit-list of sound quality of russian made caps.
??????????? ???????? ????????????? - ???????? 5
As I understand, here on diyaudio.com the interest to russian-made PET caps K73-17, K73016 etc. were also started (or gained) from my posts there?
See for example the thread:
Petp Capacitors-one Of The Best?
Now the secret:
Russian-made COMBINED caps, made from PET+paper - ARE even BETTER than PET.
Repeat: combined capacitors K75-10 = PET+paper are better then just simple PET capacitors K73-17, K73-16 etc.
Polypropilene (K78-xxx) are next in sound quality.
P.S. To be precise, mica capacitors are the best, but they are limited to 0.047uF (47 nF).
The disadvantage of combined K75-10 caps is bigger size.
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Mmm. I see you made a number of remarks in the linked threads about non-linear distortion in the caps you tested at various points in the frequency spectrum, and how some 'crushed' it etc. However, I can't find any of the extensive body of measurements you have taken of the capacitor behaviour to ascertain this, and why, according to your text, it affected some amplifiers and not others. No doubt they are somewhere, but Google Translate has its limitations, so perhaps you could post them here too for us to study.
Hello,
I agree with Alex those Russian K75-10 capacitors are very nice. To me they are far better than the typical caps found in the audiophile shops. They take a little time to '' open up '' . In the beginning you might think they lack a little detail.
As you can see in the picture i bought expensive caps in the past.
Greetings, Eduard
I agree with Alex those Russian K75-10 capacitors are very nice. To me they are far better than the typical caps found in the audiophile shops. They take a little time to '' open up '' . In the beginning you might think they lack a little detail.
As you can see in the picture i bought expensive caps in the past.
Greetings, Eduard
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Indigio, i just heard a myth when I replaced my Solen speaker caps with MIT film and foil and V caps. Sounded pretty good after they settled in for a hundred bours.
Do they sell these in Australia? I didn’t notice last time I was there....... too much time in the pub .........
Do they sell these in Australia? I didn’t notice last time I was there....... too much time in the pub .........
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AFAIK, there is nothing better than Puccini Pavarotti Scala di Milano series by Ottonelli Superecliptic---a pure 50/50 mixture of Esther and Carbonate. Unless, of course it would be the Sûndblöedhm Platinum Series, which are handcrafted by the Dalai Lama himself on February the 29th nights only, have 720 degree increased sound stage, and much better black noise granularity.
Some people believe dressing in red, black or white has a deep influence on their life.
Some believe chicken blood spread on their door will make somebody in that house die.
What do all these beliefs have in common, including the cap burn in ones?: all FAITH based, none has PROOF.
Proof meaning consistent identification by ear alone, NOT previously knowing which is which.
Reliable Double Blind Tests are not used, avoided if suggested or straight disavowed under various excuses.
As of "proof by testimony", supposed witness can and will say *anything*he believes in, that does not make it any truer.
Straight from respected (I hope) National Institute of Health, proof that "Faith" can be VERY strong, VERY delusional, to the point of killing or gravely damaging somebody.:
“VOODOO” Death
Hope capacitor, cable, and other fanatics do not go that far.
I guess spending too much time in the pub has caused permanent alcohol induced auditory psychosis.
Yeap....commonly respected as the most precise, reliable, reproducible and objective measurement devices ever...
Best regards!
If, instead, You will follow "measure THD - uber alles" idolatry, you will finish with digital garbage with a label "Sony compact Disc" on it, and/or electronic garbage with "Yamaha amplifier" on it.
Hi J.
I largely agree with you.
But I suspect that in some situations improvements in sound may be possible.
For example, isn't it true that some speaker cables sound different to others on some systems?
Also, a prolific DIYer conducted a test using 4 speaker cable of different manufacture and design.
The test was as follows:
- Four different speaker cables were used in the test.
- A short length, less than a metre, of each cable was hooked up to the antenna terminals of a HiFi Tuner.
- From memory the first cable resulted in 100% signal, the second around 80% signal, the third around 40% signal, and the last zero signal.
- This test proved that speaker cable is capable of picking up radio waves, and if designed appropriately, it was possible to shield it from radio waves transmitted by radio stations.
Can these radio waves, and perhaps any other signals near the cable, interfere with the musical signal being transmitted from an amplifier?
Then from this, is it possible that speaker cables can indeed make a difference?
And, has the snake oil science wheeled out by countless speaker wire companies, boutique and otherwise, who make unproven claims clouded the judgement of HiFi enthusiasts to the possibility that some may be onto something?
cheers
Cliff
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Different cables may be physically different in some significant way, such as resistance, inductance or capacitance (with "super" cables sometimes being terrible in some of those parameters, and much worse that plain 18 ga zip cord) so yes, they can interact with speakers, which almost always have quite variable impedance and so change sound, both audibly and/or measurably.
I have no problem with that.
Now this thread is about capacitors, and my particular beef is with capacitors burning-in or running in.
Specially with very very stable polypropylene capacitors.
The answer, of course, being that they do NOT change properties in the time frames mentioned (days/weeks/months) and in any case the "measuring system": human ear + brain is way way more variable.
You can´t claim a 1 meter bar of Constantan changes length and then "prove" it by comparing it with a sheet of fresh Lasagna or putting it side by side with a Baguette or a snake.
Basic Logic demands the measuring instrument to be way more stable and consistent than the measured object .... sadly I don´t see that concept being used in many discussions .... Audio or otherwise.
As of speaker cable picking radio waves : yes, any piece of metal submerged in an RF field will pick some of it.
So much so that they are measured in Voltage/Length units; say, for example, 50 uV per meter, so your 1 meter example will probably show 50uV voltage difference between ends, at Radio Frequencies, and open circuit or into a high impedance.
2 details:
1) will that microscopic voltage, at frequencies WAY removed from Audio frequencies, be audible in any way?
I would be very skeptic about that.
2) if anything, they will need to be "demodulated" first so any Audio carried by them can be recovered.
That is more significant at high impedance, high sensitivity non linear stages, usually at Preamp level, hardly at amp out to low impedance passive speakers where voltage and current are high, and there is no further amplification.
So connecting speaker cable to a *Tuner input* will turn it into an antenna, no doubt, but that´s competely unrelated to using it as a *speaker* cable.
That said, in VERY high RF field areas, there may be problems.
I am proud about having sold one of my Mixers to Les Luthiers, one of Argentina´s most successful acts, who sold their Tascam one, because it was unusable showing unstoppable "mystery voices" in the background, while mine was silent as a mouse.
I have worked many times solving RF pickup problems at Studios, have been called to solve RF interference in Touring band setups at World Cup Stadiums and am confident I can solve "any" RF pickup problem, as long as it is present.
Bringing problematic stuff to my shop is not enough if it does not happen before me, "I have to see it to kill it".
You mention shielding cables?
May help, may not, sometimes shield itself is the trouble maker.
I have no problem with that.
Now this thread is about capacitors, and my particular beef is with capacitors burning-in or running in.
Specially with very very stable polypropylene capacitors.
The answer, of course, being that they do NOT change properties in the time frames mentioned (days/weeks/months) and in any case the "measuring system": human ear + brain is way way more variable.
You can´t claim a 1 meter bar of Constantan changes length and then "prove" it by comparing it with a sheet of fresh Lasagna or putting it side by side with a Baguette or a snake.
Basic Logic demands the measuring instrument to be way more stable and consistent than the measured object .... sadly I don´t see that concept being used in many discussions .... Audio or otherwise.
As of speaker cable picking radio waves : yes, any piece of metal submerged in an RF field will pick some of it.
So much so that they are measured in Voltage/Length units; say, for example, 50 uV per meter, so your 1 meter example will probably show 50uV voltage difference between ends, at Radio Frequencies, and open circuit or into a high impedance.
2 details:
1) will that microscopic voltage, at frequencies WAY removed from Audio frequencies, be audible in any way?
I would be very skeptic about that.
2) if anything, they will need to be "demodulated" first so any Audio carried by them can be recovered.
That is more significant at high impedance, high sensitivity non linear stages, usually at Preamp level, hardly at amp out to low impedance passive speakers where voltage and current are high, and there is no further amplification.
So connecting speaker cable to a *Tuner input* will turn it into an antenna, no doubt, but that´s competely unrelated to using it as a *speaker* cable.
That said, in VERY high RF field areas, there may be problems.
I am proud about having sold one of my Mixers to Les Luthiers, one of Argentina´s most successful acts, who sold their Tascam one, because it was unusable showing unstoppable "mystery voices" in the background, while mine was silent as a mouse.
I have worked many times solving RF pickup problems at Studios, have been called to solve RF interference in Touring band setups at World Cup Stadiums and am confident I can solve "any" RF pickup problem, as long as it is present.
Bringing problematic stuff to my shop is not enough if it does not happen before me, "I have to see it to kill it".
You mention shielding cables?
May help, may not, sometimes shield itself is the trouble maker.