I am thinking of making a pair of BG Neo8 mtm's with the Neo3PDR's in the center. I was going to cross them over to 4 Dayton RS100 full range speakers at about 1500hz. Also will have Dayton RS265's in bottom of enclosures with 240 watt amps. I was thinking this may work out? Subs at 180hz then full ranges to about 1500hz and finally tweeters at 8500hz? all 2nd order (APC) or may be even 3rd order(APC) for the full ranges? Im wondering if this will work with the RS100's stacked vertically in a closed box right next to the MTM Neo drivers which would be mounted on there own open baffle? Or will that type of arrangement interfere with the open back diapole effect of the Neo8's? I think I have seen similar designs from speaker manufactor's. Also would it be better to just do a 2-way cross-over with a single cap on Neo3's treated like super tweeter's? Any help will be appriciated because I am about ready to order the Neo8 or Neo8PDR's.
I almost forgot one of my main questions, does it make any difference which Neo8 I use, PDR or regular? Thanks
In my experience I suggest to use The Neo8PDR without neo3 😉
Obyouvsly one Neo8pdr, not two.
And personally I have found it better in monopole than dipole operation. Make a little box 100%stuffed 1 liter or more.
Just my 2 cent.
Cheers,
Paolo
Obyouvsly one Neo8pdr, not two.
And personally I have found it better in monopole than dipole operation. Make a little box 100%stuffed 1 liter or more.
Just my 2 cent.
Cheers,
Paolo
Makes sense...too many drivers may cause difficulties, to say the least...the ideal is one driver fore each passband, if possible
Hey, my old mentor would like your statement about monopole being better
You seem to have had some good thoughts about this, and maybe just needs a bit refining
Hey, my old mentor would like your statement about monopole being better
You seem to have had some good thoughts about this, and maybe just needs a bit refining
That 10" sub driver, I dont know, its too small 😀 maybe best use multiple 10" RS270S, either that or better sub drivers
That little RS100 is really cute, but I wouldnt use a mid with such peaks
And I wont say that the use of 4 mids cant work, a way around it could be 2.5way + sub
Only 2 drivers would probably sound better, but with less sensitivity and power
Maybe the underhung 4" Titanium Tangband..as above
Would probably work fine with a pair of RS270S
The new longstroke underhung Tangband actually looks quite interesting...as above
Would probably work fine with good subs
Well, personally I wouldnt place my money on Neo8, it may be ok though, I dont know
my my, that was grumpy, time to bed
That little RS100 is really cute, but I wouldnt use a mid with such peaks
And I wont say that the use of 4 mids cant work, a way around it could be 2.5way + sub
Only 2 drivers would probably sound better, but with less sensitivity and power
Maybe the underhung 4" Titanium Tangband..as above
Would probably work fine with a pair of RS270S
The new longstroke underhung Tangband actually looks quite interesting...as above
Would probably work fine with good subs
Well, personally I wouldnt place my money on Neo8, it may be ok though, I dont know
my my, that was grumpy, time to bed
some other thoughts popping up
If monstersound is whats needed, probably the new bigger underhung Tangbands will be a good choice
But maybe 3 x 4" titanium TB in a MTM, with one working as tweeter...ehhh, say what
Yeah, I believe it would work
And crossed as you like, "6db" possible too
supertweeter on top, if needed
Thinking, maybe a couple more of the same driver below, in 2.5way
Lets see...that would be WWWWMTM +sub...all drivers the same, 7 drivers in total +subs...thats cool 😎
The above MTM top section could also be combined with their bigger underhung sister woofers...yeah, could bee the one, but unfortunately the simple 2.5way is down the drain
Ok guys, thats crazy stuff...and I am not the one to make it work, so its quite easy
Though I have other plans fore myself...but surely this thing has me on my toes, so maybe I will think about doing such a thing
Especially now that these drivers are becoming more available in EU
But VIFA have announced new interesting drivers, so we will see about that
If monstersound is whats needed, probably the new bigger underhung Tangbands will be a good choice
But maybe 3 x 4" titanium TB in a MTM, with one working as tweeter...ehhh, say what
Yeah, I believe it would work
And crossed as you like, "6db" possible too
supertweeter on top, if needed
Thinking, maybe a couple more of the same driver below, in 2.5way
Lets see...that would be WWWWMTM +sub...all drivers the same, 7 drivers in total +subs...thats cool 😎
The above MTM top section could also be combined with their bigger underhung sister woofers...yeah, could bee the one, but unfortunately the simple 2.5way is down the drain
Ok guys, thats crazy stuff...and I am not the one to make it work, so its quite easy
Though I have other plans fore myself...but surely this thing has me on my toes, so maybe I will think about doing such a thing
Especially now that these drivers are becoming more available in EU
But VIFA have announced new interesting drivers, so we will see about that
tinitus thanks for the advice. I really am not after high spl's in any way. My main goal is to design something that images incredibly and sounds very life like. I want that "spooky" solid image that fools you into thinking the real thing is right in front of you. Im kinda disappointed to hear that the Dayton Reference 10" woofers are so poor because I purchase two fo them and two 240 watt amps for this type of project. Im really not as concerned with extremely deep bass. I am more interested in transients, pitch and definition. I've read that closed box designs are better for or easier to make with these goals in mind? I was thinking of this design as sort of a really small line aray with supper tweeter in the middle to extend things past 20khz. I have a pair of satellites that I rigged together with 2 rs100's stacked vertically with a Neo3PDR side mounte in a triangle. I really like the sound of this combination as long as the volume is kept lowish. They do fall apart quickly once turned up. These very small drivers (rs100's) seem like they could use a little more help. 4 of them would be 120 watts and about 88-89 db instead of 85-86. and 2 Neo8s would be 8 ohms insted of 4 with lower sensitivity closer to rs100s. I have read a lot of posts about these drivers and it seems like most people liked them better diapole? I will probably try them both ways before I make final boxes. Thanks for the sugguestions, and please keep them comming, because the Neo8PDR's are not in yet.
tinitus said:
Hi tinitus,
you are right. I have "discovered" the Neo8pdr before the Martin Logan was emploing in his "horrible" AV line!
😀
I believe 99% of useres have understand "nothing" about what is the real value of the Neo8 ( that is very high) because they are not capable to employ it at his maximum!
I'm sorry for my crude words but I have listened enough speakers wich sound "mediocre" ........
My statement is the Neo8pdr , when propery modified and emploied, do not need of any supertweeter. Never do that!😎
I have speakers disponible for comparision here in Italy. Compare with what you want; I have checked with Avalon, Wilson,Thiel,B&W,
Manger and Magico.😀
I repeat, and excuse if I am annoing: they do not need neo3.
I'm sorry, I dont want post photos because I am in doubt if make business here
Cheers,
Paolo
Justin Melhado said:
Sorry, I was rude 😀
I believe your Dayton sub is a very fine driver...used correctly...only it doesnt seem to be the absolute best choice fore your suggested design...but doesnt matter when you read below
As fore your last statement, you are right...just your design doesnt seem to be going in that direction...I believe other designs would be much better in doing what you really want
inertial said:
I suggest you listen to Paolo...I dont doubt fore a second he knows what he is talking about
I suppose Neo8 could be quite difficult to match with another driver
Now that we have cleared that its not high power you want...personally I would maybe look in the direction of something like a Fostex F200A, or others like Supravox, or maybe the new underhung Accuton mid...but its all expencive stuff
But using fewer drivers may finance better drivers
Thanks tinitus for kind words 🙂
But I have to add that Neo8pdr is not so difficult to mate with any good midwf... Personally I use a 6.5" Audax HDA aerogel but no problem to use others stuff!
You are right, I am not for ultrahigh SPL or super efficent solutions, I tend to be obsessive about no-colorations, choerence, thimbre, imaging, armonic structure and so on 😀
Plus my speakers have to sound pleasent and "full" at low volume, as like when you can talk in the same time you are listening with a friend
without the sound have to disturb your conversation .
Cheers,
Paolo
But I have to add that Neo8pdr is not so difficult to mate with any good midwf... Personally I use a 6.5" Audax HDA aerogel but no problem to use others stuff!
You are right, I am not for ultrahigh SPL or super efficent solutions, I tend to be obsessive about no-colorations, choerence, thimbre, imaging, armonic structure and so on 😀
Plus my speakers have to sound pleasent and "full" at low volume, as like when you can talk in the same time you are listening with a friend
without the sound have to disturb your conversation .
Cheers,
Paolo
inertial said:
We could agree on everything
Regarding listening to music...it seems I can only really enjoy music completely on my own...somehow it doesnt seem to work with others present, no matter how good friends they are
inertial this is the kind of help I'm looking for before buying anything else. I wanted to get as many different opinions on these drivers as possible. Have you built speakers with the Neo8PDR's? And if so could I get a brief desciption of what your design was and how it sounded when finished? It sounds like your in agreement with tinitus about using as few drivers as possible. Also sounds like you feel the Neo8's go high enough by themselves with out any help. I have not heard the Neo8's only have Neo3's at the moment and do like there sound. Please keep the opinions and advice comming I really appreciate all of it.inertial said:
Hi tinitus,
you are right. I have "discovered" the Neo8pdr before the Martin Logan was emploing in his "horrible" AV line!
😀
I believe 99% of useres have understand "nothing" about what is the real value of the Neo8 ( that is very high) because they are not capable to employ it at his maximum!
I'm sorry for my crude words but I have listened enough speakers wich sound "mediocre" ........
My statement is the Neo8pdr , when propery modified and emploied, do not need of any supertweeter. Never do that!😎
I have speakers disponible for comparision here in Italy. Compare with what you want; I have checked with Avalon, Wilson,Thiel,B&W,
Manger and Magico.😀
I repeat, and excuse if I am annoing: they do not need neo3.
I'm sorry, I dont want post photos because I am in doubt if make business here
Cheers,
Paolo
Seems to be some good information in this BG paper, which I seem to remember explains what Paolo suggests
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-713.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-713.pdf
Yeah I have read this and seen the plots. It sounds like a very good mid/tweeter that can go really low with high order slopes. Do you guys think I could cross it over with 1st order (6db) slopes at 1500 and still not damage them. I was thinking less cross-over components and real high quality like Jantzen super z caps and foil inductors. And high quality components in notch filter at 12k?tinitus said:
I suppose it would be a bad idea to use two Neo8s stacked vertically next to 4 rs100s. A company called Nola does this type of design at www.nolaspeakers.com. They just looked real interesting to me but probably a lot harder to make work well together?
I fully understand your attraction to that design
On a couple of their other designs they seem to break every rule we like to follow in here
The big one you like, is different from what you have suggested
Its a line array with mids and tweets covering the same length
Some people love line arrays and wont have it any other way, and I believe they really are special, in some ways
But it has been shown in here that all sorts of strange things happens when doing so
Fore one the midrange wont be linear
Secondly it has also been shown that a side by side mounting of tweets and mids is really going completely wrong
What you will do is quite different
4 mids wont make a line array, and a single tweeter certainly not
Others have used a line array with a single tweeter and says it works ok
You can mount the mids in a line, and tweeter at the side, and it may work to your satisfaction, but maybe not
Or you can make a MMTMM, which also present a problem most people stay away from
Hell, sometimes people make things that are pretty weird, and say it works ok
Could be that with a lot of work and experiments even the most strange things can be turned into something good
When dealing with the unknown I prefer to stick to the rules
If you look at the design below, you may think its pretty boring, and not very interesting
But I tell you its quite special, and based on years of experience of a lot of people around here
I think its quite an intesting design and would really like to do it myself
Its only to tell that what appears to be simple and actually is easy to handle, often isnt that simple at all, if you know whats behind it
On the other hand what you want to do really is the most complicated design you can come up with, and it takes more than normal skills to make it work
I could also say that a complicated design is the easiest thing to come up with...but to make it work is the opposite, difficult if not impossible, because its flawed from the very beginning
The simple design is really the most difficult...but to make it work should be much easier, because its a sound and solid design
I respect that you like the neo8, but having heard what you like the finer aspect of music reproduction...thats not something that comes easy, and certainly not following certain drivers by law
It just as much depends on how you handle it all the way from the beginning to the end, and so many many things are likely to go wrong
As when you suggest 6db filter and use high quality components
Well, it may work but probably takes a little more than that
Im sorry to say, but afraid your are heading down a long and very difficult road
But worse is that you probably wont get what you expect
On the other hand I am sure it will be both great fun and very frustrating
But sure, I know the feeling, its great fun to do the thinking, and it cost nothing, as long as you stay with that
So build yourself a nice "premade" design to listen to, and then have all the fun you like doing other designs
On a couple of their other designs they seem to break every rule we like to follow in here
The big one you like, is different from what you have suggested
Its a line array with mids and tweets covering the same length
Some people love line arrays and wont have it any other way, and I believe they really are special, in some ways
But it has been shown in here that all sorts of strange things happens when doing so
Fore one the midrange wont be linear
Secondly it has also been shown that a side by side mounting of tweets and mids is really going completely wrong
What you will do is quite different
4 mids wont make a line array, and a single tweeter certainly not
Others have used a line array with a single tweeter and says it works ok
You can mount the mids in a line, and tweeter at the side, and it may work to your satisfaction, but maybe not
Or you can make a MMTMM, which also present a problem most people stay away from
Hell, sometimes people make things that are pretty weird, and say it works ok
Could be that with a lot of work and experiments even the most strange things can be turned into something good
When dealing with the unknown I prefer to stick to the rules
If you look at the design below, you may think its pretty boring, and not very interesting
But I tell you its quite special, and based on years of experience of a lot of people around here
I think its quite an intesting design and would really like to do it myself
Its only to tell that what appears to be simple and actually is easy to handle, often isnt that simple at all, if you know whats behind it
On the other hand what you want to do really is the most complicated design you can come up with, and it takes more than normal skills to make it work
I could also say that a complicated design is the easiest thing to come up with...but to make it work is the opposite, difficult if not impossible, because its flawed from the very beginning
The simple design is really the most difficult...but to make it work should be much easier, because its a sound and solid design
I respect that you like the neo8, but having heard what you like the finer aspect of music reproduction...thats not something that comes easy, and certainly not following certain drivers by law
It just as much depends on how you handle it all the way from the beginning to the end, and so many many things are likely to go wrong
As when you suggest 6db filter and use high quality components
Well, it may work but probably takes a little more than that
Im sorry to say, but afraid your are heading down a long and very difficult road
But worse is that you probably wont get what you expect
On the other hand I am sure it will be both great fun and very frustrating
But sure, I know the feeling, its great fun to do the thinking, and it cost nothing, as long as you stay with that
So build yourself a nice "premade" design to listen to, and then have all the fun you like doing other designs
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I know you are probably correct tinitus and obviously have much more experience than I. Im glad to get the advice because I sometimes get carried away with my ideas and forget all the rules and just try designing something that looks real cool. I will probably try the wwwwmtm with a side firing sub like your picture 1st. Like I stated before my number 1 objective is to get that sound that makes people second guess themselves weather its the speaker or some one in the room. I love this effect and have only rarely heard on occasion with certain material. I think it mainly involves imagin and the tone of the speakers? I have 8 RS125-4's, 4 rs100-8's, 2 Neo3PDR's. I also have a pair of Arum cantus G2si's and 4 rs180-4's. And the 2 rs265subs with 240w amps for each. I kinda wanted to come up with some thing a little different and unique, instead of just using some one else's design? Have you heard the AC G2si's or used them, just got them the other day and havent broken in yet. Mabe for woofers 4 rs125's cross-over around 200-400hz, then the rs100's for mid/woofer crossed over at 3500-4500hz to the Neo3's or 8's or G2si's? This would probably not break as many rules?
Thats a lot of drivers 
Should be possible to use them somehow
Just dont put them all in one speaker 😀
I will take a closer look at them later, but a nice speaker should be possible with what you have
Regarding the slimm speaker I showed
Theres a number of key elements in the design that one needs to understand to be able to value its worth
The use of 7 drivers is significant, and 6 in total are playing midbass
Its only possible because ALL drivers are the same, and with use of 2.5way xo
Also special is the use of same driver fore tweeter, which makes a very low xo point possible
2 of the driver also play mid, configured as MTM, which is best done with the low xo point
Probably the xo turns out pretty simple...anyone ought to be able to make this work
And some more
Sure your driver can be used, just a bit differently
Theres a thread "how to chose a driver", or something like that
Actually I think it would make sense to call it "how to chose a design fore a driver"
Need to think about all your drivers, its a bit of work to look at specs etc
I will think about how to do it, and try not to spoil your fun 🙂
Should be possible to use them somehow
Just dont put them all in one speaker 😀
I will take a closer look at them later, but a nice speaker should be possible with what you have
Regarding the slimm speaker I showed
Theres a number of key elements in the design that one needs to understand to be able to value its worth
The use of 7 drivers is significant, and 6 in total are playing midbass
Its only possible because ALL drivers are the same, and with use of 2.5way xo
Also special is the use of same driver fore tweeter, which makes a very low xo point possible
2 of the driver also play mid, configured as MTM, which is best done with the low xo point
Probably the xo turns out pretty simple...anyone ought to be able to make this work
And some more
Sure your driver can be used, just a bit differently
Theres a thread "how to chose a driver", or something like that
Actually I think it would make sense to call it "how to chose a design fore a driver"
Need to think about all your drivers, its a bit of work to look at specs etc
I will think about how to do it, and try not to spoil your fun 🙂
Justin Melhado said:
I will start from bottom
I would say its mostly in crossover
I know what it is you ask fore, and that doesnt come easy
I would say that even among the most skilled designers, only some of their work will do that
I believe the one I show will have at least the potential to get there, but cant promise anything...cant say if there would be something I may have overlooked completely, I hope not
but at least its affordable, or close to...14 x TB 4" is around 750 USD pr + materials
Im not sure what it is you are saying
Are you saying you want to build the speaker I showed, with a side woofer
Or are you suggesting that you want to do your version with different driver, maybe the ones you have
Regarding your drivers
Fore one, you should be able to get some kind of money fore those
Second, it seem quite funny, that if I come up with a design fore those drivers, we will be doing almost what I adviced against
On the other hand, you didnt say you had the drivers already
The RS180 and AC ribbon, I dont know
The rest could be used in a 2.5way +sub
And could look something like this
I have given it a little twist, which means its bipole, sort of...a pair of RS100 is mounted on back, maybe push-pull
Though its not what would like best, it could still end up better than I would expect
At least -3db/100hz turned out ok
Not much Xmax, but its 8 drivers in total playing midbass
How to place the sub, havent considered it yet
But again, its not likely to give you what you want, just to be realistic...but one will always have a chance, untill proven wrong
From my experience I should loud and clear say NO will never work, only I would really hate that...anyway you have the drivers
Not sure about it, but anyway heres a possible design...may work, cant say
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