Interesting. You want all the sensitivity you can get.
Don't cut the Gatorfoam. Try gluing a round disk of polystyrene foam to the compression driver maybe?
You can still cut through the dome leaving a circle of about 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch of dome left. Then glue the disk to that.
Just a suggestion - but you will possibly ruin the dome🙁
Don't cut the Gatorfoam. Try gluing a round disk of polystyrene foam to the compression driver maybe?
You can still cut through the dome leaving a circle of about 1/4 inch or 1/2 inch of dome left. Then glue the disk to that.
Just a suggestion - but you will possibly ruin the dome🙁
the panels are now connected to a newly built GAINCLONE.It's only been on for 2 hours and my jaw has dropped!!!😱
Valve amplifiers and your standard solid state whether class A or whatever (I've had a few really good solid state and valve types here : including class D, single ended, push pull etc.) just don't seem to cut it - I haven't heard anything like this.
This is just magic - no other words to describe it - WOW!
Can't wait to see what happens when the Gainclone breaks in ??!!
Sounds like you're speakers are finished Ziggy, congratulations!
Not that you really need further options, but I found one, "fineply". It's a super tight plywood, made from wood veneers. In the Spring 2009 edition of Woodwork Magazine it details how to make it in the home shop.
Also I'll have to check over this thread again to see if you tried Sintra vs. Gatorboard as well.
Since I'm thinking about building your "Ziggyplanars" as well, is there a place to buy the exciters "naked" (without housing)?
Any luck in mounting? I wondered about elastic webbing suspension like used in microphone shock mounts - probably more work than needed. See below:
Not that you really need further options, but I found one, "fineply". It's a super tight plywood, made from wood veneers. In the Spring 2009 edition of Woodwork Magazine it details how to make it in the home shop.
Also I'll have to check over this thread again to see if you tried Sintra vs. Gatorboard as well.
Since I'm thinking about building your "Ziggyplanars" as well, is there a place to buy the exciters "naked" (without housing)?
Any luck in mounting? I wondered about elastic webbing suspension like used in microphone shock mounts - probably more work than needed. See below:
Nemonowhere, for elastic webbing, cord etc, you could easily use hair bands - I mean the ones for ponytails etc, not Motley Crue or Kiss 
They'd be cheap, and are available in different thicknesses for experimentation with different compliences.
Ed
They'd be cheap, and are available in different thicknesses for experimentation with different compliences.
Ed
The microphone shock mounts are really there just to keep a vibrating mic stand from transferring energy to the microphone. It would totally deaden a panel.
The support only needs to exert a force of a about 1 newton in an upward direction. That's why I asked about the weight of a full gatorfoam panel.
Using a 2' x 4' piece of foamcore I was able to provide enough upward force with a rubber band from a newspaper. Cut it to make a single strip and used a dot of superglue to attach to the top of the panel.
While doing some experiments of adding bits of mass to kill resonance peaks, we were sliding a paper clip around the edges, just attaching it to different points as a known 1 gram mass.
Since I ended up with a clip on the bottom center of the panel, I tried another fun suspension trick: I pulled off the clip and glued a tiny magnet at the bottom. Then put a few big magnets underneath it with an air gap of about 1/2" (13 mm?). The repelling force of the two magnets at that distance was just enough to lift the panel a bit take the load off of all of the voice coils.
This will only work if your panel can tolerate a tiny bit of added mass at the bottom center, but the "magnet levitation" for panel suspension was a pretty cool trick.
Since we are looking at a small required upward force (offset weight of 20 grams or so?) and since a tiny chip off of a N52 might do nowadays, it might be worth trying.
It IS sort of tricky to arrange the magnets under the panel to provide an upward force without pushing the panel edge forward or backward, or altering its motion though.
The only test done was "are the voice coils no longer buzzing?"
The support only needs to exert a force of a about 1 newton in an upward direction. That's why I asked about the weight of a full gatorfoam panel.
Using a 2' x 4' piece of foamcore I was able to provide enough upward force with a rubber band from a newspaper. Cut it to make a single strip and used a dot of superglue to attach to the top of the panel.
While doing some experiments of adding bits of mass to kill resonance peaks, we were sliding a paper clip around the edges, just attaching it to different points as a known 1 gram mass.
Since I ended up with a clip on the bottom center of the panel, I tried another fun suspension trick: I pulled off the clip and glued a tiny magnet at the bottom. Then put a few big magnets underneath it with an air gap of about 1/2" (13 mm?). The repelling force of the two magnets at that distance was just enough to lift the panel a bit take the load off of all of the voice coils.
This will only work if your panel can tolerate a tiny bit of added mass at the bottom center, but the "magnet levitation" for panel suspension was a pretty cool trick.
Since we are looking at a small required upward force (offset weight of 20 grams or so?) and since a tiny chip off of a N52 might do nowadays, it might be worth trying.
It IS sort of tricky to arrange the magnets under the panel to provide an upward force without pushing the panel edge forward or backward, or altering its motion though.
The only test done was "are the voice coils no longer buzzing?"
Well, sorry to dissapoint guys - the panels are not yet mounted🙁
Too many other distractions in my life at the moment.
Surprised that I managed 3 hours over the weekend to throw together a stereo gainclone(did have the chassis from a previously build though).
NXT drivers are available from NXT SOUND in England. But, they are not very cooperative unless you're a prospective manufacturer
I am a bit surprised by all this talk about suspension of the panels. I know that I have not got to that part yet, but can't see why mounting the panels by the four corners with a dob of silicone will affect the performance as dramatically as some have indicated.
I know that you can not mount them with a total border as a surround like a normal speaker.
If you do, you will then have to apply NXT modelling rules and software for exciter positions etc.
Yes, you might loose some sensitivity or apparent sensitivity if you dampen all edges of the panel.
Surely we don't need to suspend the panels from our ceilings with fishing line or rubber bands?
🙄
I have noticed some peaks or ''resonances'' in the midrange at times, but don't find this objectionable. However very low electric bass type notes on some music is enough to make the tops of the panels buzz. This is not exciter buzz - it's the top of the panels(which are the loose end of a free standing and slightly wobbly panel) vibrating furiously, and letting you know that it's happening
In my opinion, when the panel is held by four small points at the corners and perhaps even a point on each side, the sound should become more linear without any weird artefacts.
If they sound this good just propped up by my horn box edges and separated by a small piece of soft foam to stop rattling, how can this be stuffed up by attaching them (lightly but securely) to a wooden frame?
Too many other distractions in my life at the moment.
Surprised that I managed 3 hours over the weekend to throw together a stereo gainclone(did have the chassis from a previously build though).
NXT drivers are available from NXT SOUND in England. But, they are not very cooperative unless you're a prospective manufacturer
I am a bit surprised by all this talk about suspension of the panels. I know that I have not got to that part yet, but can't see why mounting the panels by the four corners with a dob of silicone will affect the performance as dramatically as some have indicated.
I know that you can not mount them with a total border as a surround like a normal speaker.
If you do, you will then have to apply NXT modelling rules and software for exciter positions etc.
Yes, you might loose some sensitivity or apparent sensitivity if you dampen all edges of the panel.
Surely we don't need to suspend the panels from our ceilings with fishing line or rubber bands?
🙄
I have noticed some peaks or ''resonances'' in the midrange at times, but don't find this objectionable. However very low electric bass type notes on some music is enough to make the tops of the panels buzz. This is not exciter buzz - it's the top of the panels(which are the loose end of a free standing and slightly wobbly panel) vibrating furiously, and letting you know that it's happening
In my opinion, when the panel is held by four small points at the corners and perhaps even a point on each side, the sound should become more linear without any weird artefacts.
If they sound this good just propped up by my horn box edges and separated by a small piece of soft foam to stop rattling, how can this be stuffed up by attaching them (lightly but securely) to a wooden frame?
UPDATE : THE 1.0 AMP PTC resistor is kicking in way to soon on some low level CD's. As you crank the volume up on the Gainclone (no preamp, passive pot only), the ptc's heat up and cut in very quickly.
Going back a while, it was suggested and calculated that 6 exciters(3 in parallel, series connected to the other 3 in parallel) need a PTC with a 1.6 amp rating. Will need to implement this.
The previous Pioneer receiver I was using had a 6 ohm impedance output change that was switchable to handle impedances lower than 8 ohms.
The Gainclone does not have this of course, so a slight mismatch is causing a higher output current?.........or is it just that the Gainclone has massive current delivery compared to your regular amp and is why this little bugger blows your socks off???😕
I have also decided after more experimenting that the panel height is too great and will slice off about one foot. This will also help in making the panel a bit more stable and rigid against its current width of 71 cm.
The exciters have also all been removed from their temporary placement with average double sided tape and repositioned with NXT's supplied adhesive rings (completely weird stuff - not like their other tapes or any others for that matter) exactly dead center along the vertical axis. The distance apart for each exciter, center to center was decided at 215 mm .
I switched back to the horns for a while during the above finalization and mounting. At first I thought, oh no..........I've made a big mistake!.......these are more dynamic and have a more resolving sound. Well I can tell you that this was only a temporary moment of terror as I realized that this was not the case. I missed the panels openness, lack of coloration,revealing midrange, speed,air and cohesiveness - and the bass?........where does all this bass from the panels come from?
The corners of the Gatorfoam panels will be cut off at 45 degrees at each of the 4 corners. This is important as the pointy edges have caused some noticeable effects on sound quality - hard to describe, sort of resonant non musical effects(noticed when experimenting with offcuts).
So, the work and fine tuning continues...............
😀
Going back a while, it was suggested and calculated that 6 exciters(3 in parallel, series connected to the other 3 in parallel) need a PTC with a 1.6 amp rating. Will need to implement this.
The previous Pioneer receiver I was using had a 6 ohm impedance output change that was switchable to handle impedances lower than 8 ohms.
The Gainclone does not have this of course, so a slight mismatch is causing a higher output current?.........or is it just that the Gainclone has massive current delivery compared to your regular amp and is why this little bugger blows your socks off???😕
I have also decided after more experimenting that the panel height is too great and will slice off about one foot. This will also help in making the panel a bit more stable and rigid against its current width of 71 cm.
The exciters have also all been removed from their temporary placement with average double sided tape and repositioned with NXT's supplied adhesive rings (completely weird stuff - not like their other tapes or any others for that matter) exactly dead center along the vertical axis. The distance apart for each exciter, center to center was decided at 215 mm .
I switched back to the horns for a while during the above finalization and mounting. At first I thought, oh no..........I've made a big mistake!.......these are more dynamic and have a more resolving sound. Well I can tell you that this was only a temporary moment of terror as I realized that this was not the case. I missed the panels openness, lack of coloration,revealing midrange, speed,air and cohesiveness - and the bass?........where does all this bass from the panels come from?
The corners of the Gatorfoam panels will be cut off at 45 degrees at each of the 4 corners. This is important as the pointy edges have caused some noticeable effects on sound quality - hard to describe, sort of resonant non musical effects(noticed when experimenting with offcuts).
So, the work and fine tuning continues...............
😀
I just found a foam-material that was especially developed for sound board applications by Siemens, Bayer and the PU specialist Puren.
http://www.puren.com
Finally even ONE who seems to be interested in the topic.
http://www.puren.com
Finally even ONE who seems to be interested in the topic.
Interesting....
It seems that there are "complete" solutions also.
http://www.pursonic.com/soundboards-flat-panel-loudspeakers/index.html
This includes a range of "soundboards" that are intended to be built in to walls/ceiling, or operate as decorative elements.
There is also a range of amplifiers that seem to be tailored to operating the panels, perhaps to achieve equalised freq. response, surround processing etc...
Ed
It seems that there are "complete" solutions also.
http://www.pursonic.com/soundboards-flat-panel-loudspeakers/index.html
This includes a range of "soundboards" that are intended to be built in to walls/ceiling, or operate as decorative elements.
There is also a range of amplifiers that seem to be tailored to operating the panels, perhaps to achieve equalised freq. response, surround processing etc...
Ed
Hi Ziggy,
I am in Perth (Hamersley) and have been reading your post with interest.
Are you open to visitors? If so, I would be grateful to take a look at your speakers. I am currently finalising my ribbon line array and would like to have a listen to this setup - sounds intriguing.
If so, please email me at gbentink at gmail dot com
I am in Perth (Hamersley) and have been reading your post with interest.
Are you open to visitors? If so, I would be grateful to take a look at your speakers. I am currently finalising my ribbon line array and would like to have a listen to this setup - sounds intriguing.
If so, please email me at gbentink at gmail dot com
Interesting stuff guys!
Seems that invisible in wall sound is taken seriously around the world. But, what is the actual technology?..........didn't see any info on that
Have reconsidered my last post on intended changes to the panels.
Will now remain the same size, but with 3 more exciters added - a total of 9 per panel 😉
Why?..............to obtain a proper 8 ohm series/parallel impedance.
5.4 ohms just does not cut it with a lot of amplifiers I have tried.
I have worked out the contact points(and the special rubber suspension material) to hold such a tall panel so that it will remain rigid.
Seems that invisible in wall sound is taken seriously around the world. But, what is the actual technology?..........didn't see any info on that
Have reconsidered my last post on intended changes to the panels.
Will now remain the same size, but with 3 more exciters added - a total of 9 per panel 😉
Why?..............to obtain a proper 8 ohm series/parallel impedance.
5.4 ohms just does not cut it with a lot of amplifiers I have tried.
I have worked out the contact points(and the special rubber suspension material) to hold such a tall panel so that it will remain rigid.
Have just discovered that the Australian supplier of the Sonic Impact Soundpads has changed over to the DAYTON type that greenvalve mentioned a while back.
greenvalve, are you there?If so, are you sure that they are using a different exciter to the Sonic impact ones?
greenvalve, are you there?If so, are you sure that they are using a different exciter to the Sonic impact ones?
just when I thought things were going well, disaster and perhaps realization has struck home
one of the panels was mounted up on a frame yesterday. Just cheap cedar but strongly made by a retired carpenter that was kind enough to cut and join a frame in less than an hour.
Early this morning the panels were firstly mounted on silicone blobs places at even points - all corners and two sides.
Secondly, and I will explain in a moment,this was unsuccessful, so, the panel was removed and the other side of the frame used to mount small rubber spongy strips in various positions with strong double sided tape - many attempts and positions were tried.
The problem encountered was common to all attempts and methods -
Output was reduced considerably. Bass diminished(even with a brace at the rear of the exciters with rubber suspension providing the exciters with some compliance in heavy bass passages),panel would buzz noticeably when a low note hit. Before the mounting, I presumed that this was due to free panel movement or warping of the Gatorfoam being unsupported.
Those who have been following my thread know that I do not give up easy but I regret to inform that these panels will only be good for soft to medium background music.
As much as I have wanted to believe and truly thought that the highs were sufficient - they are not. There are no highs because the panels are not the correct honeycomb stuff that costs a fortune. Gatorfoam is a good substitute for most frequencies but can not allow for the highs to pass through.
I sincerely hope that I have not led too many fellow members astray and cost them lots of money. I know I have spent a lot in this venture(it all adds up in the end)
😡
I'm sorry guys, don't really know what more to say🙁
The project has been scrapped officially.
I would have to experiment with the proper panel material or hear the Podium speakers(unlikely to happen any time soon in Australia) to make any further judgment or analysis of this technology
A suggestion:
As Puren claim to be successful with PU, why not try the Kapa bloc from Alcan? I don´t know whether it´s available outside Europe, however.
As I find the highs not sufficient even in the Podium Sound I probably will go an other way: Mount a thin sheet of Forex classic (called Sintra in the US) U-shaped behind an open baffle to let it do the bass task. I have already knocked on a 4 mm sheet and found it promising but not bendable enough.
But now I have the materials here to build a Planot-principle speaker that is very unlikely to employ bending or torsion waves, to proof or falsify the principle, so this is my priority now.
As Puren claim to be successful with PU, why not try the Kapa bloc from Alcan? I don´t know whether it´s available outside Europe, however.
As I find the highs not sufficient even in the Podium Sound I probably will go an other way: Mount a thin sheet of Forex classic (called Sintra in the US) U-shaped behind an open baffle to let it do the bass task. I have already knocked on a 4 mm sheet and found it promising but not bendable enough.
But now I have the materials here to build a Planot-principle speaker that is very unlikely to employ bending or torsion waves, to proof or falsify the principle, so this is my priority now.
In my experiments I have come to the same conclusion. The efficiency just is not there. The high frequencies that I do hear seem to radiate from the coil spider, not the panel itself. You can hear this plainly by listening to an exciter while not attached to anything.
For me it was no loss. These are very good stuck behind the ceiling drywall in the attic. I now have music in every room of the house for only $20 per room. My wife loves them because they are completely invisible and sound great.
Thanks Ziggy for all your hard work! Hope you didn't sell your horns. 😉
For me it was no loss. These are very good stuck behind the ceiling drywall in the attic. I now have music in every room of the house for only $20 per room. My wife loves them because they are completely invisible and sound great.
Thanks Ziggy for all your hard work! Hope you didn't sell your horns. 😉
Guys, yes, thanks for confirming my end result. I agree that the highs were emanating from the voice coils only - very deceiving😡
If the highs are still not there with the Podium speakers (the real thing) then there is no point to this method in regards to audiophile applications🙁
No,.......I have not sold the horns. They had something to tell me during my experiments with the panels.........but I wasn't listening🙄
It was the horns that reminded me once again that micro detail, massive attack and dynamics is hard to leave behind once you have been there😉
My goal now will be to make the horns better.......but it won't take much.
el'Ol, good luck with your Planot experiments.Let us know how you go with that.
If the highs are still not there with the Podium speakers (the real thing) then there is no point to this method in regards to audiophile applications🙁
No,.......I have not sold the horns. They had something to tell me during my experiments with the panels.........but I wasn't listening🙄
It was the horns that reminded me once again that micro detail, massive attack and dynamics is hard to leave behind once you have been there😉
My goal now will be to make the horns better.......but it won't take much.
el'Ol, good luck with your Planot experiments.Let us know how you go with that.
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