HOLY SMOKE !!!!!!.......................played a PERCUSSION CD last night :details of recording will follow in next post.
Man!!!!!!!!..............scared the living bejesus out of myself!!!!!
the dynamics seriously put my horns to shame(and I know this recording very well played back on the horns) - this couldn't/shouldn/t be happening....but it is!
Had a real hard time in setting a safe volume level (low to moderate) due to to the extreme contrasts in soft shuffles, sticks, bells etc. against tympani and drum blasts. In a couple of words : FRIGHTINGLY FAST, FAST, DYNAMIC!!!!,FAST, FAST, FAST.........did I say a couple of words?🙄
Man!!!!!!!!..............scared the living bejesus out of myself!!!!!
the dynamics seriously put my horns to shame(and I know this recording very well played back on the horns) - this couldn't/shouldn/t be happening....but it is!Had a real hard time in setting a safe volume level (low to moderate) due to to the extreme contrasts in soft shuffles, sticks, bells etc. against tympani and drum blasts. In a couple of words : FRIGHTINGLY FAST, FAST, DYNAMIC!!!!,FAST, FAST, FAST.........did I say a couple of words?🙄
Details of mounting in frame?
Ziggy,
Can you post some more pics of your panels as they are now. Namely showing how they are supported, how the exciters are attached, and is the speaker wire stiffness causing any issues from one exciter to the next? Are the panels just resting one end on the floor and held up with some sort of strut? Also, how do you envision coupling them to a frame as this seems like a make or break area in not over damping the panels?
Ryan.
Ziggy,
Can you post some more pics of your panels as they are now. Namely showing how they are supported, how the exciters are attached, and is the speaker wire stiffness causing any issues from one exciter to the next? Are the panels just resting one end on the floor and held up with some sort of strut? Also, how do you envision coupling them to a frame as this seems like a make or break area in not over damping the panels?
Ryan.
Ryan, I have already posted pictures of the panels with their exciters attached.
They are supported by the horn speaker bass boxes(as per another photo of the room) - the edge of the panel rests against the corner of the box and is sandwiched by a small piece of open cell foam to stop rattling.
All wiring is kept short between exciters except where they are wired in series as two sets of 3 exciters. The longer pieces are lifted away from the panel so that they don't touch any parts that vibrate.
The wires are thin guage crap at the moment and will need to remain thin even when the prototypes are completed. This helps avoid any interaction with the exciters and panel.
How are the exciters mounted? - I have already mentioned the 3m TAPE in my previous posts.
How will I mount them in the frames? - They will be floating on some PARAFIX silicone rubber sealant by their corners and possibly two points on the sides. Only experimentation will decide on the best method for this.
I don't expect the panels to end up being overdamped using this method. The panels are far too large and will only be held by small areas to make any significant effect on the sound. If anything, by grounding the back of the exciters as mentioned before, the sound should improve - hopefully.
I'll try to find some time to take some more photos when I can. Nothing has really changed as yet, but will soon when I begin to mount the exciters properly spaced with the correct adhesive rings supplied by 3M.
They are supported by the horn speaker bass boxes(as per another photo of the room) - the edge of the panel rests against the corner of the box and is sandwiched by a small piece of open cell foam to stop rattling.
All wiring is kept short between exciters except where they are wired in series as two sets of 3 exciters. The longer pieces are lifted away from the panel so that they don't touch any parts that vibrate.
The wires are thin guage crap at the moment and will need to remain thin even when the prototypes are completed. This helps avoid any interaction with the exciters and panel.
How are the exciters mounted? - I have already mentioned the 3m TAPE in my previous posts.
How will I mount them in the frames? - They will be floating on some PARAFIX silicone rubber sealant by their corners and possibly two points on the sides. Only experimentation will decide on the best method for this.
I don't expect the panels to end up being overdamped using this method. The panels are far too large and will only be held by small areas to make any significant effect on the sound. If anything, by grounding the back of the exciters as mentioned before, the sound should improve - hopefully.
I'll try to find some time to take some more photos when I can. Nothing has really changed as yet, but will soon when I begin to mount the exciters properly spaced with the correct adhesive rings supplied by 3M.
http://www.tymphany.com/exciters
This provides a simple description of how to fix the exciters. Ziggy how long did it take NXT to get in touch, I've been waiting ages!!!!!!!!!!
Chris x
This provides a simple description of how to fix the exciters. Ziggy how long did it take NXT to get in touch, I've been waiting ages!!!!!!!!!!
Chris x
Hi Chris, I have that document also.The only thing to remember is that the document refers to a specific small speaker product and recommends a two part glue to secure the exciter to the panel. It is far better to use the recommended 3M double sided tape as mentioned in one of my previous posts.
Thanks For providing the link for others.I forgot all about it.
The first correspondence was a non event. So, I sent the same message again stating that since there was no response to my initial email, regrettably,here it is again!Got one back pretty soon after,apologizing for their delay in response.
You will have to hint that your are experimenting with a proposed commercial product(you will be telling lies of course) and require information on exciters and prices, samples etc.
Unfortunately this is how the commercial world operates these days.🙄
Thanks For providing the link for others.I forgot all about it.
The first correspondence was a non event. So, I sent the same message again stating that since there was no response to my initial email, regrettably,here it is again!Got one back pretty soon after,apologizing for their delay in response.
You will have to hint that your are experimenting with a proposed commercial product(you will be telling lies of course) and require information on exciters and prices, samples etc.
Unfortunately this is how the commercial world operates these days.🙄
Thanks Ziggy for this very interesting and well documented thread. I may be just imagining it, but it seems like you are enthusiastic about this project. 😉
Like Anon.1, I bought a pair of the sound pads a few years back. I read everything I could find about the sound pads, the NXT technology and such. Thought I should give it a whirl.
Ohhhhhh - was I sadly disappointed.
I stuck the things on every thing I could find, here is a list:
cardboard
cardstock
matte board
heavy watercolor paper
acrylic sheet
glass sheet
plywood (thick and thin)
MDF
fiberboard
PVC
gypsum board
ceramic tile
coreflute
foamcore
stainless steel
concrete(!)
I got the best results on glass.
But the sound was always "puny" and never very hi-fi. An amusing toy, that's all. I think they ended up in the rubbish.
What I never did try was Gatorboard - never could find any, nor did I try more than 2 sound pads. Biggest panels used were 1/4 sheet, i.e. 2x4 feet.
It does seem that you have found very big panels and multiple drivers to be the ticket. Bravo for pushing thru on the project.
The sound pads are pretty cheap little devices. I kept wondering what the sound might be like with a better built driver and maybe a neo magnet motor. Might take it up a whole other level. You seem to have found that more motor(s) makes a big difference.
Some day I'll have to try again with your setup. Shouldn't cost too much to try, right?
Like Anon.1, I bought a pair of the sound pads a few years back. I read everything I could find about the sound pads, the NXT technology and such. Thought I should give it a whirl.
Ohhhhhh - was I sadly disappointed.
I stuck the things on every thing I could find, here is a list:
cardboard
cardstock
matte board
heavy watercolor paper
acrylic sheet
glass sheet
plywood (thick and thin)
MDF
fiberboard
PVC
gypsum board
ceramic tile
coreflute
foamcore
stainless steel
concrete(!)
I got the best results on glass.
But the sound was always "puny" and never very hi-fi. An amusing toy, that's all. I think they ended up in the rubbish.
What I never did try was Gatorboard - never could find any, nor did I try more than 2 sound pads. Biggest panels used were 1/4 sheet, i.e. 2x4 feet.
It does seem that you have found very big panels and multiple drivers to be the ticket. Bravo for pushing thru on the project.
The sound pads are pretty cheap little devices. I kept wondering what the sound might be like with a better built driver and maybe a neo magnet motor. Might take it up a whole other level. You seem to have found that more motor(s) makes a big difference.
Some day I'll have to try again with your setup. Shouldn't cost too much to try, right?
Greetings panomaniac!
Yes, what I have ended up with was not what I had at the start which was two pads per coruflute sheet if I recall correctly.
I am so enthusistic because the end result sounds so damn good that I never imagined it ever could.
The key is as you have stated : large Gatorfoam panels, multiple exciters, BUT!......the exciters must be removed from their soundpad housings or ordered raw without any housing(without doing this you are just wasting time according to NXT). This is where things start happening, together with the right panel material - something that others have not realised to the full extent of what the technology is capable of🙁
The Soundpads on their own will dissapoint many who will then give up on them prematurely.
I on the other hand was persistant to the point of do or die.....and it paid off.
By going along the same design as Podium Loudspeakers, a simple vertical line of exciters placed on the rear of the panels was all that was necessary to realise that I had hit the mark.
I will say this again - this IS NOT rocket science - those exciters can be off line, in line, inaccurately spaced - it doesn't make a damned bit of difference from what I have seen and heard.
If you can get the Gatorfoam and exciters, give it a go I say - you might be pleasantly surprised or it may not be for you. The sound they make is controversial to say the least.To me they are magnificent, but it has been a long and hard road of research and testing to realise that a great sound is not difficult to accomplish with this some trial and error.
Hell, it didn't cost that much to get there, so, I'm delighted!
It's a pity that the Soundpads and other small mid-fi systems using small NXT speakers(not correctly implemented) have created a bad reputation for NXT technology. What a shame.
Yes, what I have ended up with was not what I had at the start which was two pads per coruflute sheet if I recall correctly.
I am so enthusistic because the end result sounds so damn good that I never imagined it ever could.
The key is as you have stated : large Gatorfoam panels, multiple exciters, BUT!......the exciters must be removed from their soundpad housings or ordered raw without any housing(without doing this you are just wasting time according to NXT). This is where things start happening, together with the right panel material - something that others have not realised to the full extent of what the technology is capable of🙁
The Soundpads on their own will dissapoint many who will then give up on them prematurely.
I on the other hand was persistant to the point of do or die.....and it paid off.
By going along the same design as Podium Loudspeakers, a simple vertical line of exciters placed on the rear of the panels was all that was necessary to realise that I had hit the mark.
I will say this again - this IS NOT rocket science - those exciters can be off line, in line, inaccurately spaced - it doesn't make a damned bit of difference from what I have seen and heard.
If you can get the Gatorfoam and exciters, give it a go I say - you might be pleasantly surprised or it may not be for you. The sound they make is controversial to say the least.To me they are magnificent, but it has been a long and hard road of research and testing to realise that a great sound is not difficult to accomplish with this some trial and error.
Hell, it didn't cost that much to get there, so, I'm delighted!
It's a pity that the Soundpads and other small mid-fi systems using small NXT speakers(not correctly implemented) have created a bad reputation for NXT technology. What a shame.
Hi Guys,.......haven't made much progress with the Australian Oak for the panels until just the other day - daughter had a serious car accident(she's a bit sore but somehow escaped from being badly hurt or worse) and her car was totalled completely by some idiot who wasn't looking where he was going. So, been kind of busy sorting out the insurance, paper work etc.
Will purchase the timber soon and have the frames properly assembled by our Carpentry section where I work.
This is important because there must be a tight vibration free frame for these DML monsters so that resonances don't creep in and spoil all the hard work up until now.
There's still some work to be done in the finishing off process, but I'll get there in the end.....................
Will purchase the timber soon and have the frames properly assembled by our Carpentry section where I work.
This is important because there must be a tight vibration free frame for these DML monsters so that resonances don't creep in and spoil all the hard work up until now.
There's still some work to be done in the finishing off process, but I'll get there in the end.....................
Ziggy,
The Speakers can wait. Just glad to hear she is OK. Funny how we can feel for someone on the other side of the earth especially when it comes to our kids safety. Makes everything else seem a bit trivial.
Ryan
The Speakers can wait. Just glad to hear she is OK. Funny how we can feel for someone on the other side of the earth especially when it comes to our kids safety. Makes everything else seem a bit trivial.
Ryan
Thanks Ryan, your concern is very much appreciated. Yes, our interests in audio mean nothing in situations like this.
She was lucky to get out of this one alive apparently.
Fortunately the brand new Mitsubishi Colt she was driving actually saved her life with it's built in safety features : I am led to believe that on impact, the entire chassis drops and the panels tend to fold outwards instead of inwards.
The car was crushed, twisted and mangled after it was hit from the rear by a vehicle travelling at high speed,causing it to collide in to the car in front of her (both were stationary at the traffic lights) but,..... not one window in her car shattered😕
That's what I call weird!......we'll be replacing the car with exactly the same make and model😉
She was lucky to get out of this one alive apparently.
Fortunately the brand new Mitsubishi Colt she was driving actually saved her life with it's built in safety features : I am led to believe that on impact, the entire chassis drops and the panels tend to fold outwards instead of inwards.
The car was crushed, twisted and mangled after it was hit from the rear by a vehicle travelling at high speed,causing it to collide in to the car in front of her (both were stationary at the traffic lights) but,..... not one window in her car shattered😕
That's what I call weird!......we'll be replacing the car with exactly the same make and model😉
Ziggy,
Glad to hear there was a happy outcome from your daughter's accident - it sounds very nasty from your description. I hope her aches & pains pass quickly.
I read this thread regularly with great interest. That you report such high quality sound from a mechanism & technology that is so readily dismissed by others is interesting and, frankly, amusing. It just shows the value of experimentation.
Purely out of interest, is there any way you could construct and test a cylindrical panel? I guess this might be difficult with your preferred material, and in the applicaiton of the exciters.
Cheers,
Ed
Glad to hear there was a happy outcome from your daughter's accident - it sounds very nasty from your description. I hope her aches & pains pass quickly.
I read this thread regularly with great interest. That you report such high quality sound from a mechanism & technology that is so readily dismissed by others is interesting and, frankly, amusing. It just shows the value of experimentation.
Purely out of interest, is there any way you could construct and test a cylindrical panel? I guess this might be difficult with your preferred material, and in the applicaiton of the exciters.
Cheers,
Ed
Hi Ed, thanks for your best wishes.I'm sure she'll be fine with some physiotherapy and regular treatment - nothing too serious thankfully.
I too have had a ball with this NXT stuff..........and found it amusing.😀 - at times,...... sometimes it was pain in the butt.....but hey!....that's what it's all about?!......DIY!😉
I've thought about a curved panel but not a cylindrical one. I know that this can and has been done according to NXT claims and literature.
Only thing is........how to get a flat exciter foot to attach to a curved surface? Maybe an adaptor of some type?
Might be a good question for the boys at NXTSOUND?
I too have had a ball with this NXT stuff..........and found it amusing.😀 - at times,...... sometimes it was pain in the butt.....but hey!....that's what it's all about?!......DIY!😉
I've thought about a curved panel but not a cylindrical one. I know that this can and has been done according to NXT claims and literature.
Only thing is........how to get a flat exciter foot to attach to a curved surface? Maybe an adaptor of some type?
Might be a good question for the boys at NXTSOUND?
Hi Ziggy,
I have tried your setup. Lucky for me i have access to the gatorfoam boards at a cheap price.
My panels are as big as yours and have the exciters attached like you have described. The first 30 mins of listening on the panels was strange. The baffles were a bit muffled. The sound slowly became more musical and i think the muffled sound has totally gone now. (~4 hours later)
My current speakers are hawthorne SI 15's. Compared to them the new panels are much more natural. Bigger sweet spot and no annoying sibilance that i often hear with the Si 15's.
For something so simple. They produce very good sound. Next step is to mount them properly and see where they head.
Well done on this DIY effort. Thank you for sharing.
Optic
I have tried your setup. Lucky for me i have access to the gatorfoam boards at a cheap price.
My panels are as big as yours and have the exciters attached like you have described. The first 30 mins of listening on the panels was strange. The baffles were a bit muffled. The sound slowly became more musical and i think the muffled sound has totally gone now. (~4 hours later)
My current speakers are hawthorne SI 15's. Compared to them the new panels are much more natural. Bigger sweet spot and no annoying sibilance that i often hear with the Si 15's.
For something so simple. They produce very good sound. Next step is to mount them properly and see where they head.
Well done on this DIY effort. Thank you for sharing.
Optic
Hi optic.
🙂 Great to see some confirmation to all my hard efforts. Glad it worked for you also..........get ready for some amazing sound experiences........trust me !!😉
I'm interested to hear that the sound has improved after 4 hours. it will keep on improving for a while longer if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, the sound is something special.....no doubt about that. Your average and even high end forward firing sound cannons can't match the realism and natural sound produced by the panels - they are truly a world apart.
It has been a pleasure to share my experiences here and no doubt after your posting there will most likely be a lot more interest generated compared to my word alone.
Keep us informed and I will also - as the monsters meet their mounting systems
🙂 Great to see some confirmation to all my hard efforts. Glad it worked for you also..........get ready for some amazing sound experiences........trust me !!😉
I'm interested to hear that the sound has improved after 4 hours. it will keep on improving for a while longer if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, the sound is something special.....no doubt about that. Your average and even high end forward firing sound cannons can't match the realism and natural sound produced by the panels - they are truly a world apart.
It has been a pleasure to share my experiences here and no doubt after your posting there will most likely be a lot more interest generated compared to my word alone.
Keep us informed and I will also - as the monsters meet their mounting systems
The tools come out this weekend. So i will post some pics of the result.
My partner suggested a photo/print on each panel (easy for me to do). My reply was. "Do i get to keep them then?". in reply, "Yes, they sound great"
So i have to make them look like pieces of art work and i get the thumbs up How easy was that!
Optic
My partner suggested a photo/print on each panel (easy for me to do). My reply was. "Do i get to keep them then?". in reply, "Yes, they sound great"
So i have to make them look like pieces of art work and i get the thumbs up
How easy was that!Optic
Looking forward to the pics!😉
Had a look around at my local rubber goods supplier. Man, there's a lot of stuff to choose from for rubber suspensions for the panel/frame coupling.
Oh well.........back to experimenting.....
Had a look around at my local rubber goods supplier. Man, there's a lot of stuff to choose from for rubber suspensions for the panel/frame coupling.
Oh well.........back to experimenting.....
Ziggy, (and anyone/everyone else doing actual hands-on experiments with these)
Push/Pull Excitation:
You seem to be getting better results as you add additional exciters. Have you compared a single exciter to a pair operating in a push/pull fashion? Just pick a spot somewhere near the middle of your Gatorboard and stick a transducer there, and then stick one on the opposite side of the board, wired with reversed polarity.
My understanding is that the better sound coming from adding additional exciters has more to do with the amount of excitation, not the additional complexity of the distributed mode energy resulting from driving at additional coordinates.
2 Signals Driving One Board:
Place an exciter about 1/3 from one end of a panel, and another exciter about 1/3 in from the other end. Drive them with a stereo pair of signals and see if there is any listening position that results in stereo imaging.
Decoupled Suspension:
Hang a panel from the ceiling using a single piece of elastic, like a broken rubber band. I remember this sounding much better than the "dead surround" suspension (made from Sorbothane)
Square Wave and Oscilloscope:
Get a tone generator and play a square wave or a sawtooth wave on the panel. Hook up a microphone to an oscilloscope and see what the wave looks like from different positions, nearfield and far field
Precomp DSP:
Measure the impulse response of the panel and apply a Finite Impulse Response correction to the signal
The Guitar Trick:
Stick an exciter on the soundboard of a guitar and send it a signal of acoustic guitar music that was originally recorded using a "transducer pickup" (as opposed to a magnetic pickup or a microphone). Play with the 31 band equalizer until it sounds like someone is really playing that guitar. (Extra credit points awarded for tricking a spouse into believing it's really you playing it)
The Helium Trick:
I'd better save this one for later...
Push/Pull Excitation:
You seem to be getting better results as you add additional exciters. Have you compared a single exciter to a pair operating in a push/pull fashion? Just pick a spot somewhere near the middle of your Gatorboard and stick a transducer there, and then stick one on the opposite side of the board, wired with reversed polarity.
My understanding is that the better sound coming from adding additional exciters has more to do with the amount of excitation, not the additional complexity of the distributed mode energy resulting from driving at additional coordinates.
2 Signals Driving One Board:
Place an exciter about 1/3 from one end of a panel, and another exciter about 1/3 in from the other end. Drive them with a stereo pair of signals and see if there is any listening position that results in stereo imaging.
Decoupled Suspension:
Hang a panel from the ceiling using a single piece of elastic, like a broken rubber band. I remember this sounding much better than the "dead surround" suspension (made from Sorbothane)
Square Wave and Oscilloscope:
Get a tone generator and play a square wave or a sawtooth wave on the panel. Hook up a microphone to an oscilloscope and see what the wave looks like from different positions, nearfield and far field
Precomp DSP:
Measure the impulse response of the panel and apply a Finite Impulse Response correction to the signal
The Guitar Trick:
Stick an exciter on the soundboard of a guitar and send it a signal of acoustic guitar music that was originally recorded using a "transducer pickup" (as opposed to a magnetic pickup or a microphone). Play with the 31 band equalizer until it sounds like someone is really playing that guitar. (Extra credit points awarded for tricking a spouse into believing it's really you playing it)
The Helium Trick:
I'd better save this one for later...
neededandwanted, thanks for your suggestions.
Unfortunately I don't have access to equipment such as this and don't really know if I need it.
My goal during this course of experimentation, as I have often said is to follow in the footsteps of the Podium Sound Loudspeaker as a working and proven design.
As a result, I ended up placing the exciters (more than one) in line through the middle of the panel as he has. Not only that, during my course of experimentation, exciters have been placed all over the panels in various configurations - and in many cases the difference was jack......whether, single, dual or multiple. They were always in phase however.
I know from research and inquiries that not only Podium, but others such as Amina Technologies, Elac and Armstrong ceiling panels have their exciters all wired in phase and use multiple exciters primarily to : 1. increase sensitivity and 2. increase power handling. I therefore never bothered or thought along the lines of out of phase arrangements.
Amina, Elac and Armstrong follow the NXT patent and operating principle to the letter though, where Podium is a variant or hybrid to some extent.
I do not pretend to understand all the complex theory and physics involved in NXT technology and probably never will.I do however understand that I have not made any obvious or dramatic errors in judgment or wiring at this present point in time.
There are now two of us on this forum that have successfully implemented multiple exciters on a very large panel with excellent results.
I do not understand your comment on ''see if there is any listening position that results in stereo imaging'' - what in the blazes are you talking about man? - STEREO IMAGING is easily picked anywhere you are in the room - no problem there!
I do however take your comment on the mounting and suspension of the panels very seriously and will be on guard here - anything goes in this final stage - that I agree with 100% .
Unfortunately I don't have access to equipment such as this and don't really know if I need it.
My goal during this course of experimentation, as I have often said is to follow in the footsteps of the Podium Sound Loudspeaker as a working and proven design.
As a result, I ended up placing the exciters (more than one) in line through the middle of the panel as he has. Not only that, during my course of experimentation, exciters have been placed all over the panels in various configurations - and in many cases the difference was jack......whether, single, dual or multiple. They were always in phase however.
I know from research and inquiries that not only Podium, but others such as Amina Technologies, Elac and Armstrong ceiling panels have their exciters all wired in phase and use multiple exciters primarily to : 1. increase sensitivity and 2. increase power handling. I therefore never bothered or thought along the lines of out of phase arrangements.
Amina, Elac and Armstrong follow the NXT patent and operating principle to the letter though, where Podium is a variant or hybrid to some extent.
I do not pretend to understand all the complex theory and physics involved in NXT technology and probably never will.I do however understand that I have not made any obvious or dramatic errors in judgment or wiring at this present point in time.
There are now two of us on this forum that have successfully implemented multiple exciters on a very large panel with excellent results.
I do not understand your comment on ''see if there is any listening position that results in stereo imaging'' - what in the blazes are you talking about man? - STEREO IMAGING is easily picked anywhere you are in the room - no problem there!
I do however take your comment on the mounting and suspension of the panels very seriously and will be on guard here - anything goes in this final stage - that I agree with 100% .
Ziggy said:
I was referring to placing an exciter on the opposite side of the board and wiring it electrically out of phase, so that the two would be mechanically in phase. I am probably STILL not explaining this clearly enough: Make a sandwich with 2 exciters and a piece of Gatorboard. Exciter/board/exciter. One exciter goes on the front and one goes on the back of the board, but otherwise in the same position. When one exciter is pushing, the other is pulling.
Since we don't have tons of choices with exciters, the way we do with drivers, this may allow a stronger excitation from a single point even though we are stuck using the only available exciter.
Sorry, was unclear here as well, evidently. Basically, I was referring to driving the opposite ends of a single board with a stereo pair of drivers. I wouldn't try it from the extreme ends of the board, but from about 20cm in from each side. (and orient the board horizontally) I was curious about how the stereo image might be perceived as you move around the single panel.
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