A lot of the grounding issues in power network is solved by star grounding and wiring in general. I had my electrician recently install me a dedicated line for audio in listening room, and i made 4n copper bus bars, which was copper, silver then gold plated for star wiring. Works wonders.
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Those that have these issues rarely are those that also understand these matters. For some reason not many understand and for some reason manufacturers still make mistakes with this. I have seen quite some audiophile linear PSUs with direct connection of the "-" to PE! So then an external power supply and still ground loops.
Sorry Brijac but using bus bars and precious metals is not the solution for ground loops. It is IN the devices where things occur.
Sorry Brijac but using bus bars and precious metals is not the solution for ground loops. It is IN the devices where things occur.
You're correct that in my setup if I pull out my HTPC from the equation, my loop goes away. I can even remove it by just unplugging the HDMI cable.
Oddly enough I just got one of these for each of my HTPCs https://hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-250w-gan-aio-atx-psu.html
With the modular IEC connector, it'll be real easy for me to slip in a proper loop breaker composed of a diode bridge, 10R, and 100n capacitor like shown here https://sound-au.com/earthing.htm#s9
I think I am on the right path?
Unfortunately a lot of Star wiring systems are done wrong.
The idea of good Star systems is to reduce the length of runs from component to component.
Sometimes a Star within a Star is even better. With the main Star at a central point in the audio room, then smaller Stars at the various equipment locations.
Or for a 215 page printout of the seminar:
An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing
by Bill Whitlock, retired President Jensen Transformers, Inc.
Life Fellow, Audio Engineering Society
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf
The RCA connector shells should be attached to the metal chassis and then the 10 Ohm resistor is connected to the audio circuit common.
I would beg to differ. For example, sftp ethernet cable can introduce grounding issues, and that is not a device, but a wire with a connection to ground. There are multitude of grounding issues, and not all are IN the devices. You do seam to speak of absolutes most of the time, and sorry i don't find such posts relevant.
Hi that is a solution. I would use those in the amplifier but not in the pc’s. I would not want to hamper the SMPS mains filters in any way. Always connect the pc's with 3 pin IEC plugs to 3 pin wall sockets.
When the loop is broken in the amplifier and the hum is gone then you already achieved what you wanted isn't it?! If your amplifier also has an SMPS we have a new challenge.
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We are in a thread by the OP about his situation where the issue is obviously IN the devices. You may find my posts irrelevant but so is the use of silver and gold in mains busbars 🙂 You also spoke of "power network" which now of a sudden is "LAN network".
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If i read the title correctly, it is starting with HOUSE wiring and avoiding ground loops there. You're a moderator, and yet you try to prove some point on a side note of my main post which is star wiring. Try to relax, drink some tea, and be more down to earth.
And yes, using precious metals is great for that due to copper oxidizing issues, and bus bars are usually placed somewhere where you can't access them easy and often.
Very down to earth here and I choose not to continue this useless discussion. I think I helped the OP solve his issues with adequate information and don't need anyone else's expertise on this as I simply solve issues like this myself.
Where do you read I am a moderator and what difference would that make? Same assumptions as with star wiring and gold/silver plated bus bars to solve ground loops (installed by someone else)? 😀
Where do you read I am a moderator and what difference would that make? Same assumptions as with star wiring and gold/silver plated bus bars to solve ground loops (installed by someone else)? 😀
Sigh.
Thankfully, I don't have to deal with ground loops as big as a living room..
It's just too complex for me.
John
Thankfully, I don't have to deal with ground loops as big as a living room..
It's just too complex for me.
John
My apologies, it was tongue in cheek. My last project was 800 meters circumference, with more than 5 megawatts of power, including 2 meg of RF power, with intertwined single ended coax cables trying to measure microvolts at picosecond speeds. But me, I'm just the cable guy...
Presently consulting on two more machines, one bigger, one a tad smaller.
Ground loops are easily controlled, as you detailed...but it is important to understand the geometry and system wiring. The OP has basically left us in the dark.
There are many simple solutions, but we need to know the specifics.
John
No he is not. Please go look up the meaning of "emeritus."
Ground loop noise is a big problem in pro audio where I work. Yes, even with XLR.
Pin 1 lift is the first thing to try. If the shield is connected at only one end there is no current flow and no loop.
It’s easy and worth a try. Kinda surprised at ground loop noise in a balanced home system, though.
Pin 1 lift is the first thing to try. If the shield is connected at only one end there is no current flow and no loop.
It’s easy and worth a try. Kinda surprised at ground loop noise in a balanced home system, though.
I just gave this a go. Thank you 🙂 You solved an issue that has been bugging me for far too long. Moving the loop breaker from the HTPC to the amp removed 100% of any residual noise I was experiencing, when the loop breaker was at the PC you could hear the tiniest amount of noise if pressing the ear right up to the driver. Cheers!
2 things I've run into when measuring at the 0.1uVDC level is grounding cable-shields at both ends, and voltage between the earth and neutral. I solved those problems in various buildings, one over 120 years old, by employing double conversion UPS technolgy.
I put the power feed outlet right on the breaker box, and plugged the UPS into that. Then, I connect all instrumentation to a power distribtion unit, like an outlet strip, but more reliable, and to the UPS. The UPS will sustain a lightning strike. It will reset, but everything will be fine.
For cable communications, I place a grounded fitting within a few feet of the connection, usually off of a splitter. I ground it by soldering a grounding prong from a power cable onto 14 gauge solid wire, and push it into a grounding socket on the PDU.
The cable guy always removes those, because I don't know why. They just hate them! So, I have to put them back myself. One guy even cross threaded the grounding screw on a splitter, so I wouldn't be able to connect the ground up again.
Maybe it causes problems with their lines. Not quite sure. But it really cleans up the signal. I've had no service due to a dirty signal, and got full-speed Internet by that fix. And, no doubt it prevents grounding loops on those lines.
So, I have less experience with hifi than DC signals. But the basic ideas are quite similar. My father has a cal. lab, and he grounds his equipment in a star configuration with a separate ground point than the earth stake. It's to the municipal water supply, which is a great ground point.
In the USA residential areas generally have single phase, 240/120 split, so 3-phase in a residence would be unusual. Unfortunately, the USA was the first to electrify, so we got to make all the mistakes.
At one time we had 67VAC both hot, out of phase with each other. But at one time power lines were only ten feet off the ground. Actually, in New York City there were 'DC' power stations in the beginning.
Edison, who invented the light bulb, wanted his 'DC' power to prevail. So, he held exhibitions in which small mammals were killed with 'AC' power. He also lobbied to have electric executions done with 'AC' power. All this to convince the public that AC is much too dangerous.
And thrown into the mix were gaslight utilities that fought tooth and nail to prevent electrical power grids from being built! Even though probably 1,000 people per year died from asphyxiation from unburned gas in the house.
People didn't want to turn the gaslight valves completely off, because then they would leak. So they turned them way down, and sometimes the flame went out and the house filled with gas. Not natural gas, but gas derived from baking coal. It was just loaded with CO!
So, the market dictated what would be, and it was 'AC' power, pioneered by Nikoli Tesla under Westinghouse funding. Thomas Edison just couldn't understand AC. In fact, no one but Tesla did. He is essentially the reason for AC power.
I put the power feed outlet right on the breaker box, and plugged the UPS into that. Then, I connect all instrumentation to a power distribtion unit, like an outlet strip, but more reliable, and to the UPS. The UPS will sustain a lightning strike. It will reset, but everything will be fine.
For cable communications, I place a grounded fitting within a few feet of the connection, usually off of a splitter. I ground it by soldering a grounding prong from a power cable onto 14 gauge solid wire, and push it into a grounding socket on the PDU.
The cable guy always removes those, because I don't know why. They just hate them! So, I have to put them back myself. One guy even cross threaded the grounding screw on a splitter, so I wouldn't be able to connect the ground up again.
Maybe it causes problems with their lines. Not quite sure. But it really cleans up the signal. I've had no service due to a dirty signal, and got full-speed Internet by that fix. And, no doubt it prevents grounding loops on those lines.
So, I have less experience with hifi than DC signals. But the basic ideas are quite similar. My father has a cal. lab, and he grounds his equipment in a star configuration with a separate ground point than the earth stake. It's to the municipal water supply, which is a great ground point.
In the USA residential areas generally have single phase, 240/120 split, so 3-phase in a residence would be unusual. Unfortunately, the USA was the first to electrify, so we got to make all the mistakes.
At one time we had 67VAC both hot, out of phase with each other. But at one time power lines were only ten feet off the ground. Actually, in New York City there were 'DC' power stations in the beginning.
Edison, who invented the light bulb, wanted his 'DC' power to prevail. So, he held exhibitions in which small mammals were killed with 'AC' power. He also lobbied to have electric executions done with 'AC' power. All this to convince the public that AC is much too dangerous.
And thrown into the mix were gaslight utilities that fought tooth and nail to prevent electrical power grids from being built! Even though probably 1,000 people per year died from asphyxiation from unburned gas in the house.
People didn't want to turn the gaslight valves completely off, because then they would leak. So they turned them way down, and sometimes the flame went out and the house filled with gas. Not natural gas, but gas derived from baking coal. It was just loaded with CO!
So, the market dictated what would be, and it was 'AC' power, pioneered by Nikoli Tesla under Westinghouse funding. Thomas Edison just couldn't understand AC. In fact, no one but Tesla did. He is essentially the reason for AC power.
Ah that is good to hear. You see the ground loops in this thread also causing hum and noise?! 😀
Issue solved!