ShinOBIWAN said:
I see it now.. the angle isn't right.. (took me a LONG time to see it though).
Just don't paint on *THAT* table again.. 😀
Fixed my little mistake 🙂 and all is ready for sanding and polishing.
In the end it only took me a few hours to fix the mistake, I'm getting really fast with at shooting the paint now, perhaps thats why I ended up making the mistake in the first place 😉
Anyway I'll be able to get to sleep again at night 😀
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
In the end it only took me a few hours to fix the mistake, I'm getting really fast with at shooting the paint now, perhaps thats why I ended up making the mistake in the first place 😉
Anyway I'll be able to get to sleep again at night 😀
Member
Joined 2002
Hi again all
I'd been planning to swap out the R2904 treble for the new R3004-6600 AirCirc jobs but I had a telephone call last week from Wilmslow letting me know that Scanspeak can't fulfil my order as the release date has been put back until 2007! So I've been sat around for 3 weeks whilst Wilmslow get interest on the full balance I had to pay to special order the tweeters - sweet way to do business there Wilmslow.
I've looked around but nothing even remotely interests me as much as the R3004 did. Zaphs measurements looked extremely nice, it would be interesting if somebody in the US could get an R2904 to him to measure. Its overpriced but I'm pretty sure it would be amongst the top couple of treble units.
But one thing I keep comming back to; I really really need some low end augmentation on the Percieves, frankly they are lightweight thanks to my choice of going critically damped (0.5 Qtc) sealed on the ATC bass. They measure 50hz F3 inroom, which is poor for a 9". What bass they do produce is very good though and that's the problem - its a b1tch to mate with a sub and puts heavy demands on the design. So far I've not been having much luck. I bought a pair of Volt Radials last year but after testing I realised they only really sounded on track with massive 150ltr+ enclosures, my plan back then was for stereo subs and no way my little room would hold two of those and still sound good.
I then bought an AV15 driver but abandoned that before even fixing the driver into a test cabinet. And then a couple of months ago I bought a pair of ATC 15" SB75-375SC. These weren't quite as good as the Volts IMO and didn't have that same awesome control the Volts provided, close but not the same. I've heard a lot of subs but the Volts are pretty much one of the best I've tried so far, they don't go particularly deep (30hz is doable with 150ltrs) but play a track with a kick drum and they can literally make you believe that its right in the room with you, totally realistic and tactile, its uncanny and nothing else I've tried has that same realism and sense of controlled power right down to thump that hits your senses.
Unfortunately non have really given me what I'm looking for. So I'm still looking for the right driver. Ideally I want a good response down to 20hz at least and definitely low distortion.
I'm particularly interested in TC Sounds new 12" LMS-4000:
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms4000.htm
They model exceptionally well in a reasonably sized sealed enclosure and all the right compromises seem to have been made in order to maximise extension, distortion and performance in sealed enclosures. Depending on delivery costs I may order a pair, I'll have wait to hear back from TC Sounds on that though.
I've also been playing around with enclosure shapes and was considering a sort of matching style to the Percieves:
It looks a little odd but I thought the same about the Percieves and they turned out nice. I also had the thought of a satallite enclosure on top of the sub which perform center channel duties but I don't really believe I need a center TBH but given the width of the sub its a possibility to do a vertical TM flanked by 6" woofers so as to avoid the horizontal MTM.
I'd been planning to swap out the R2904 treble for the new R3004-6600 AirCirc jobs but I had a telephone call last week from Wilmslow letting me know that Scanspeak can't fulfil my order as the release date has been put back until 2007! So I've been sat around for 3 weeks whilst Wilmslow get interest on the full balance I had to pay to special order the tweeters - sweet way to do business there Wilmslow.
I've looked around but nothing even remotely interests me as much as the R3004 did. Zaphs measurements looked extremely nice, it would be interesting if somebody in the US could get an R2904 to him to measure. Its overpriced but I'm pretty sure it would be amongst the top couple of treble units.
But one thing I keep comming back to; I really really need some low end augmentation on the Percieves, frankly they are lightweight thanks to my choice of going critically damped (0.5 Qtc) sealed on the ATC bass. They measure 50hz F3 inroom, which is poor for a 9". What bass they do produce is very good though and that's the problem - its a b1tch to mate with a sub and puts heavy demands on the design. So far I've not been having much luck. I bought a pair of Volt Radials last year but after testing I realised they only really sounded on track with massive 150ltr+ enclosures, my plan back then was for stereo subs and no way my little room would hold two of those and still sound good.
I then bought an AV15 driver but abandoned that before even fixing the driver into a test cabinet. And then a couple of months ago I bought a pair of ATC 15" SB75-375SC. These weren't quite as good as the Volts IMO and didn't have that same awesome control the Volts provided, close but not the same. I've heard a lot of subs but the Volts are pretty much one of the best I've tried so far, they don't go particularly deep (30hz is doable with 150ltrs) but play a track with a kick drum and they can literally make you believe that its right in the room with you, totally realistic and tactile, its uncanny and nothing else I've tried has that same realism and sense of controlled power right down to thump that hits your senses.
Unfortunately non have really given me what I'm looking for. So I'm still looking for the right driver. Ideally I want a good response down to 20hz at least and definitely low distortion.
I'm particularly interested in TC Sounds new 12" LMS-4000:
http://www.tcsounds.com/lms4000.htm
They model exceptionally well in a reasonably sized sealed enclosure and all the right compromises seem to have been made in order to maximise extension, distortion and performance in sealed enclosures. Depending on delivery costs I may order a pair, I'll have wait to hear back from TC Sounds on that though.
I've also been playing around with enclosure shapes and was considering a sort of matching style to the Percieves:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It looks a little odd but I thought the same about the Percieves and they turned out nice. I also had the thought of a satallite enclosure on top of the sub which perform center channel duties but I don't really believe I need a center TBH but given the width of the sub its a possibility to do a vertical TM flanked by 6" woofers so as to avoid the horizontal MTM.
On the TC woofer the force applied in the gap is weak and the mms is high.. not the driver you are looking for. (..the subwoofer equivilant of the seas midbass driver.)
I'd suggest the Ciare SW12.00 (perhaps "isobaric" push-push for a smaller volume) in a non-aligned bass reflex..
http://www.ciare.com/oem/index.html
(now don't shudder at the suggestion of bass reflex 😀), provided the pairing amp's current capability is good - it will provide the sound you are looking for in the size you want.
I'd suggest the Ciare SW12.00 (perhaps "isobaric" push-push for a smaller volume) in a non-aligned bass reflex..
http://www.ciare.com/oem/index.html
(now don't shudder at the suggestion of bass reflex 😀), provided the pairing amp's current capability is good - it will provide the sound you are looking for in the size you want.
Hi Scott
Yeah I noticed that too. By the looks of it the LMS VC needs significant gap clearance due to the non linear winding technique of the VC. This of course lowers the BL quite drastically. For instance compare the TC2000 with the same TC9 motor structure used in the LMS-4000, the BL product for each is 10 and 17.5 respectively, obviously the TC-2000 uses a conventional VC and can have a much smaller gap clearance.
So the extreme lack of efficiency (82dB) of the 12" LMS-4000 could very well completely negate any of the distortion benefits offered by the LMS technology, afterall if you've got a 91dB eff. sub running up against an 82dB one, your going to be putting 8 times the power into lesser sub to get comparable SPL. And surely the distortion will suffer to an extent that it may actually perform worse.
TC is just getting started with its new line so it might be prudent of me to wait a couple more months until the LMS-4100neo and LMS-5400 are introduced, these both use more powerful motors and so efficiency and BL product will see a good increase, especially with the LMS-5400 with its 520ounce worth of magnet, if I went that route I'd only be able to afford a single driver though.
Their pro line of subs looks like it could do a good job of bridging the gap between high efficiency and low distortion sub 20hz performance - something virtually all pro drivers with limited xmax can't do convincingly in single driver and sensibly sized enclosures. We'll have to see on that one since there's no TS for them yet.
I took a look at Ciare and it looks dissappointing from a modelling perspective. I know you can't take that a face value but its an indicator thats normally not far off the truth. Care to go into further details because I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits and don't believe it will meet my requirements.
Yeah I noticed that too. By the looks of it the LMS VC needs significant gap clearance due to the non linear winding technique of the VC. This of course lowers the BL quite drastically. For instance compare the TC2000 with the same TC9 motor structure used in the LMS-4000, the BL product for each is 10 and 17.5 respectively, obviously the TC-2000 uses a conventional VC and can have a much smaller gap clearance.
So the extreme lack of efficiency (82dB) of the 12" LMS-4000 could very well completely negate any of the distortion benefits offered by the LMS technology, afterall if you've got a 91dB eff. sub running up against an 82dB one, your going to be putting 8 times the power into lesser sub to get comparable SPL. And surely the distortion will suffer to an extent that it may actually perform worse.
TC is just getting started with its new line so it might be prudent of me to wait a couple more months until the LMS-4100neo and LMS-5400 are introduced, these both use more powerful motors and so efficiency and BL product will see a good increase, especially with the LMS-5400 with its 520ounce worth of magnet, if I went that route I'd only be able to afford a single driver though.
Their pro line of subs looks like it could do a good job of bridging the gap between high efficiency and low distortion sub 20hz performance - something virtually all pro drivers with limited xmax can't do convincingly in single driver and sensibly sized enclosures. We'll have to see on that one since there's no TS for them yet.
I took a look at Ciare and it looks dissappointing from a modelling perspective. I know you can't take that a face value but its an indicator thats normally not far off the truth. Care to go into further details because I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits and don't believe it will meet my requirements.
I've been modelling the LMS-4000 somemore and I can't help but be impressed with the predicted performance in a sealed enclosure.
An F3 of 20hz from a 100ltr sealed enclosure and without equalisation tricks such as those from a Linkwitz transform or regular PEQ is pretty much unheard of. Compromises have been made to get this performance but they just seem to be the right ones. If it wasn't for the Qes then this would be approaching perfect for sealed applications.
Because the driver doesn't need any LT its excursion, when compared to an AV15 with LT giving similar low end performance to the LMS4000, is down to 1/2 that of the AV15 driver at 15hz. Pretty impressive consider its 15" vs. 12". Like I said above, its had all the right compromises made to provide a well extended performer in a sealed enclosure.
Try modelling it Scott and see what you think.
An F3 of 20hz from a 100ltr sealed enclosure and without equalisation tricks such as those from a Linkwitz transform or regular PEQ is pretty much unheard of. Compromises have been made to get this performance but they just seem to be the right ones. If it wasn't for the Qes then this would be approaching perfect for sealed applications.
Because the driver doesn't need any LT its excursion, when compared to an AV15 with LT giving similar low end performance to the LMS4000, is down to 1/2 that of the AV15 driver at 15hz. Pretty impressive consider its 15" vs. 12". Like I said above, its had all the right compromises made to provide a well extended performer in a sealed enclosure.
Try modelling it Scott and see what you think.
for the ciare:
..for 1 driver aproximatly 55 liters of internal volume with a vent diameter of about 7 cm's and length of around 33 cm's should give a port resonance near 23 Hz.
The driver's in-box resonance will be pushed-up above your crossover to the ATC. In effect then the driver will operate below its resonace augmented by the port - which will decrease distortion and increase powerhandling. The port should be vented near the floor with some air space (perhaps like Avalon Acoutics), this lowers port impeadance (system compliance) and increases driver current control by the amplifier - decreasing distortion further. (..the net effect is MUCH lower distortion than an ELF based system which also operates the driver exclusivly below driver in-box resonance.).
This will give the combined response a lowpass character from 50Hz down to 23Hz that will be nearly identical to the inverse of average room-gain from 50 Hz down to 23 Hz. This should give a fairly flat in-room response (without taking modal deviations into account) with an average spl of about 88db from 50 Hz to 23 Hz 1 watt/1meter.
-3db point will be around 21 Hz, below 20 Hz the response will drop like the proverbial rock - BUT this helps considerably with distortion in the operating passband (so its give and take here). Power handleing will allow for in-room at about 120 db at 23 Hz.
The net effect will be a so-called fullrange system (in combination with the perceives), BUT I wouldn't call the result a true subwoofer. To actually get true subwoofer extension, AND low distortion, AND high power handeling (or even modest power handleing) - that will require a LOT more space, or more space and a LOT more drivers and a free-air dampened cardoid configuration.
..for 1 driver aproximatly 55 liters of internal volume with a vent diameter of about 7 cm's and length of around 33 cm's should give a port resonance near 23 Hz.
The driver's in-box resonance will be pushed-up above your crossover to the ATC. In effect then the driver will operate below its resonace augmented by the port - which will decrease distortion and increase powerhandling. The port should be vented near the floor with some air space (perhaps like Avalon Acoutics), this lowers port impeadance (system compliance) and increases driver current control by the amplifier - decreasing distortion further. (..the net effect is MUCH lower distortion than an ELF based system which also operates the driver exclusivly below driver in-box resonance.).
This will give the combined response a lowpass character from 50Hz down to 23Hz that will be nearly identical to the inverse of average room-gain from 50 Hz down to 23 Hz. This should give a fairly flat in-room response (without taking modal deviations into account) with an average spl of about 88db from 50 Hz to 23 Hz 1 watt/1meter.
-3db point will be around 21 Hz, below 20 Hz the response will drop like the proverbial rock - BUT this helps considerably with distortion in the operating passband (so its give and take here). Power handleing will allow for in-room at about 120 db at 23 Hz.
The net effect will be a so-called fullrange system (in combination with the perceives), BUT I wouldn't call the result a true subwoofer. To actually get true subwoofer extension, AND low distortion, AND high power handeling (or even modest power handleing) - that will require a LOT more space, or more space and a LOT more drivers and a free-air dampened cardoid configuration.
I just modeled the LMS-4000.. sealed.. and vented..
The most interesting thing with it and a VERY large volume sealed is that "linear" operation and "max" power handeling are so near each other - in other words their design seems to work as far as maintaining "linearity" over such a long stroke.
The thing is though, such long-gap designs are usually mediocre at best distortion-wise at and near driver resonance.. Whats cool about them, and this design in particular, is that when you start pumping a lot of current into them they don't turn to crap distortion-wise, (across the entire passband), imeadiatly.
Even in a 100 liter sealed design with a monster of an amp - I can't help but think that the resulting bass would sound "slow" - VERY "slow". and yup, I could very well be wrong (..but my past experiences say that this is NOT the way to go - even at these low freq.s.)
The most interesting thing with it and a VERY large volume sealed is that "linear" operation and "max" power handeling are so near each other - in other words their design seems to work as far as maintaining "linearity" over such a long stroke.
The thing is though, such long-gap designs are usually mediocre at best distortion-wise at and near driver resonance.. Whats cool about them, and this design in particular, is that when you start pumping a lot of current into them they don't turn to crap distortion-wise, (across the entire passband), imeadiatly.
Even in a 100 liter sealed design with a monster of an amp - I can't help but think that the resulting bass would sound "slow" - VERY "slow". and yup, I could very well be wrong (..but my past experiences say that this is NOT the way to go - even at these low freq.s.)
🙂
So you reckon its worth waiting around for a month or so until the other TC drivers come to the market?
As you've already pointed, striking a balance between acceptable size, extension and distortion is far from easy when dealing with the kind of constraints I'm looking at.
I'd like to stick to DIY if possible but if not I'll probably for a Velodyne Digital Drive. Kinda sucks though having to spend all that money for acceptable size, distortion and extension.
So you reckon its worth waiting around for a month or so until the other TC drivers come to the market?
As you've already pointed, striking a balance between acceptable size, extension and distortion is far from easy when dealing with the kind of constraints I'm looking at.
I'd like to stick to DIY if possible but if not I'll probably for a Velodyne Digital Drive. Kinda sucks though having to spend all that money for acceptable size, distortion and extension.
Amp enclosures for the Percieves arrived over the weekend.
The build isn't bad at all and the fit/finish is excellent. I bought these from ATI Research and they worked out at £27 each - it would be impossible for me to build them for that price so I've taken the easy way out 🙂
ATI is an excellent company to deal with and discounting the fact they're a thousands of miles away based in Thailand, it felt like I was dealing with a local company. There's a friendly chap called Arthon down there who always answered my emails within 24 hours and even went out his way to get me photo's of virtually every conceivable angle of the enclosures. And also helped me dodge the 17.5+4.5% import tax here in the UK 🙂 Delivery was 5 working days and they arrived very well packaged. I'd highly recommend that anyone looking at this sort of thing consider ATI.
http://www.atiresearch-anodized.com/products.html
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The build isn't bad at all and the fit/finish is excellent. I bought these from ATI Research and they worked out at £27 each - it would be impossible for me to build them for that price so I've taken the easy way out 🙂
ATI is an excellent company to deal with and discounting the fact they're a thousands of miles away based in Thailand, it felt like I was dealing with a local company. There's a friendly chap called Arthon down there who always answered my emails within 24 hours and even went out his way to get me photo's of virtually every conceivable angle of the enclosures. And also helped me dodge the 17.5+4.5% import tax here in the UK 🙂 Delivery was 5 working days and they arrived very well packaged. I'd highly recommend that anyone looking at this sort of thing consider ATI.
http://www.atiresearch-anodized.com/products.html
They look mint Ant. I'm definitely interested in some of their cases - it seems affordable cosmetic enclosures have become available in the UK at last! Even if you got hit with VAT they are still a reasonable buy. I assume p&p is included in that price?
richie00boy said:
Hi Rich
Yes, ATI did a great job with them, way better than I expected actually.
The postage isn't in that price unfortunately and its pretty steep TBH due to the weight, distance and size of the package. I paid £75 shipping for 6x enclosures. The total in the end was around £235 if I remember.
Another slight inconvenience was the fact that Arthon(ATI) only took bank transfer as payment but he's since setup a paypal account I believe. Its all rather complicated but Thailand is a little 'backwards' regarding card transactions and paypal don't even allow folks in that country to setup up an account so he's had to do it through a proxy. But rest assured, my experience was a pleasant one and well worth the slight downers.
I bought some of these sweet LED push button switches:
And they're blue! Which is the best sounding one of course. 😉
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And they're blue! Which is the best sounding one of course. 😉
Member
Joined 2002
ShinOBIWAN said:
I have one of these in my remote switch kit's for my Bosoz Pre-amp. Id like to get more but different colors such as red.. right now i have blue.. I just ordered and received a Whole pile oF Purple UV led's THEY look SWEEETTTT Going to use them in my new Mini Amp's.
Jase
ShinOBIWAN, where did you get those funky buttons from? 😉
I'd like to get my hands on some of those for my little project, when I finally get all the bits together that is
I'd like to get my hands on some of those for my little project, when I finally get all the bits together that is
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