omega87 said:Is it just me, or this thread is just a waste of time?
If you haven't noticed, it's Shin's 170 page blog. It's a good idea
to keep ones thoughts to one thread otherwise the forum
as a whole gets clogged with many useless threads.
😉
Very true and its the weakness of the v2's. That ATC mid dome demands steep filters in order to be fully utilised. I think its this that is part of my problem with the sound.
omega87 said:Is it just me, or this thread is just a waste of time?
LOL.. Have you read the first thread? 😀
Most designs just take a lot of time and thought.. I'm betting the system you currently have didn't exactly "spring forth" in under a month. 😉
Me.. I'm currently designing a possible commercial loudspeaker.. As many restraints as Shin has put on himself, its nothing in comparison to something intended to be a "broadly" accepted product.
What I'm currently looking at has all sorts of compromises.. but *should* provide that something (ehmm) "special" that puts it "ahead of the class" at its (admitedly) exhorbitant price point.
Wow! Really a 170th page! Thanks Thy. You're right about keeping thoughts inside the topic.
Shin, are you really gonna undo and redo this speaker? It's a beauty, but the wall hext to it...Sort it out, first, then start chopping the speaker. Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you could be in a position to make valid judgements about the speaker, after seing the room. You'd be amazed how room treatment can fix a lot of speaker bugs. I really mean it in the most friendly way, cool it for a while, fix the room, and then you'll know where the problem is. Room is a tool, like any other, if not THE tool, needed to build a good speaker.
BTW, I like high order filters. For added clarity.
Scott, say no more. I know the trouble. Why don't you start a new thread? We'll do our best to "help" you! LOL
Shin, are you really gonna undo and redo this speaker? It's a beauty, but the wall hext to it...Sort it out, first, then start chopping the speaker. Somehow, I find it hard to believe that you could be in a position to make valid judgements about the speaker, after seing the room. You'd be amazed how room treatment can fix a lot of speaker bugs. I really mean it in the most friendly way, cool it for a while, fix the room, and then you'll know where the problem is. Room is a tool, like any other, if not THE tool, needed to build a good speaker.
BTW, I like high order filters. For added clarity.
Scott, say no more. I know the trouble. Why don't you start a new thread? We'll do our best to "help" you! LOL
omega87 said:
😀
You've put your foot in it a little there. If you knew anything about what I've done with the v2's it was minimising the rooms influence on sound and this was done through both physical and electronic treatments.
This thread is 170 pages long and its a PITA to read even some of that but you'll be pleased to hear that I did have a rather different setup before the recent revamp and redecoration of the entire room.
Before:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Treatments effective down to 1Khz, then DEQX with FIR filters + DRC. I had a frequency response that would make a sound engineer drool 🙂
Nevermind, you saw the pictures and just went on what you had 🙂
They can sound really good but the 96dB/Oct on the DEQX required stupid amounts of micro tweaking to get the drivers to integrate correctly and also not create nulls off axis. It took some time but eventually it all just clicked.
I have a stong feeling that 'help' maybe turning into a hinderance because of my constant indecision. Eventually I'll get off the pot and just buy some drivers, build and then start swapping stuff 'til I'm happy. It worked well last time, although a little costly in time and monetary matters I hoped that maybe I could avoid that this time.
ShinOBIWAN said:
If the mid is the only problem, why not just get a new mid and use test boxes to get the right sound? I am interested in how you determine what doesn't sound right for the Perceive 2? What music, what instruments in the music or who's voice sound not real, and how each of thes sound to you?
soongsc said:
Too much effort or rather not enough reward.
Swapping the mid means mutilating the cabinets and I'll end up spoiling the synergy I've got going on with the drivers right now. The designs is complete, its finished. I've done my fair share of fiddling, swapping and rebuilding since I started them, I think its best to just leave a good thing as is.
I have no such reservation about building something that tries to raises my own personal bar next time around though.
This Thread Rocks, Hang In There Shin...
I normally just lurk, but I have been tracking this thread closely since the very beginning and I want to tell the critics to back off. Just the woodworking and painting tips alone make this thread worth reading, throw in the fantastic design and craftsmanship, the willing investments in top notch drivers and the electronics and testing to do it all justice.... it all adds up to one of the best threads on the net, period.
Hey, if any of us had gone through what Shin has so far and was thinking about how to take it all to the next level, we would be running off in every direction babbling nonsense to an embarassing degree. I think his one step forward, two steps back at this point is normal and justified, and in due time will flip back to two steps forward.
Some Observations If I May:
1) Line Arrays - I made the trip to Selah Audio in North Carolina to check out what Rick Craig is up to. His stuff sounds awesome, and yes, I am very tempted. They are different, and I am not sure the distinction is the direction I want to go all the way with, but there is no denying that line arrays done right are impressive. From much of what Shin describes as his listening goals, I would say this is the way to go except for two distinct problems:
a) Despite covering the dynamics and presence like nothing else, even well done line arrays don't quite have the image specificity and 3D texture of really good point source designs. The time/phase coherent freaks are probably on to something, and spread spectrum issues of a stack of drivers will probably never live up to their demands in this area.
b) Every time I draw a line array design I marvel at the implied horsepower, but find the design leaves much to be desired. Not much room for cabinet/baffle innovation when you follow the line array rules, and since Shin has in my mind displayed a talent for industrial design matched by only a handfull of other DIY'ers I have followed on the net, I am guessing that though the array may score many valuable points on the overall card, this one goes lacking and is probably important enough that it takes the fun out of whatever his next effort is going to be.
2) IMHO, I think Shin should spend some more time exploring what Volt, JBL, Beyma, TAD and guys like Earl Geddes and Wayne Parham bring to the table. Just me of course, but I would rather spend time trying to tame the explosive dynamics crowd than trying to take the smooth imaging hi-fi crowd and inject more energy into them. Also, personally, I am convinced that the ATC is too good of a driver, meaning that because it does so well right up to the extremes folks end up crossing it over right in the middle of our most sensitive phase regions (100-700 Hz, where most three-ways cross) and running it up to a point that is hard to integrate with a tweeter spaced a good distance away. Why not look at a wave guide like Earls or something like the DDS ENG 1-90 and put a pro compression driver on it (some are supposed to sound pretty darn good, you just have to be willing to sort em out) since you have such powerful DSP tools at your disposal. Then find a really nice 8 or 10 inch cone driver (Volt, PHL, JBL, Fostex...) that will have similar power response (to the waveguide) around 1.4-1.6kHz and cross them in that zone. Good cab design, maybe some creative cork/felt treatments around the drivers and/or the edge of the waveguide, and you have something that roars but also dances with finesse when called upon to do so. Then go back to Volt for some 12 or 15 inchers that kick a*@ and build your system to just run like the devil from 40 Hz to 18 kHz, and rather than chase driver cabinet combinations for subs, just find some attic or basement space (or vent it outside like a chimney) and go IB from 15-40Hz and get it over with. I think this is the only way to really nail down the performance that you are looking for below 40 Hz by the way, everything else is just futile unless you are willing to let Scott spec out some refrigerator size cabs, which I would do if I had the space...
3) Having said all that, thank you very much for the cabinet design ideas as I am probably going to go with something similar to your last example, but a bit more modest in final design components and scale, and run Volt 8" drivers top and bottom, with a custom machined plate to couple two Morel MDM-55's running from 800 Hz - 3,800 Hz (I know some think this is a sensitive area but I believe others like Jim Griffin who cross Jordans near this range and claim it works very very well) above and below the new Hiquphon OW4. I think this is a good "poor man's" version of what you are looking at... ( and then I save up for IB subs for phase two...)
Sorry for the long post, just venting here I guess. But since my vents are on topic I don't feel too bad about it : )
I normally just lurk, but I have been tracking this thread closely since the very beginning and I want to tell the critics to back off. Just the woodworking and painting tips alone make this thread worth reading, throw in the fantastic design and craftsmanship, the willing investments in top notch drivers and the electronics and testing to do it all justice.... it all adds up to one of the best threads on the net, period.
Hey, if any of us had gone through what Shin has so far and was thinking about how to take it all to the next level, we would be running off in every direction babbling nonsense to an embarassing degree. I think his one step forward, two steps back at this point is normal and justified, and in due time will flip back to two steps forward.
Some Observations If I May:
1) Line Arrays - I made the trip to Selah Audio in North Carolina to check out what Rick Craig is up to. His stuff sounds awesome, and yes, I am very tempted. They are different, and I am not sure the distinction is the direction I want to go all the way with, but there is no denying that line arrays done right are impressive. From much of what Shin describes as his listening goals, I would say this is the way to go except for two distinct problems:
a) Despite covering the dynamics and presence like nothing else, even well done line arrays don't quite have the image specificity and 3D texture of really good point source designs. The time/phase coherent freaks are probably on to something, and spread spectrum issues of a stack of drivers will probably never live up to their demands in this area.
b) Every time I draw a line array design I marvel at the implied horsepower, but find the design leaves much to be desired. Not much room for cabinet/baffle innovation when you follow the line array rules, and since Shin has in my mind displayed a talent for industrial design matched by only a handfull of other DIY'ers I have followed on the net, I am guessing that though the array may score many valuable points on the overall card, this one goes lacking and is probably important enough that it takes the fun out of whatever his next effort is going to be.
2) IMHO, I think Shin should spend some more time exploring what Volt, JBL, Beyma, TAD and guys like Earl Geddes and Wayne Parham bring to the table. Just me of course, but I would rather spend time trying to tame the explosive dynamics crowd than trying to take the smooth imaging hi-fi crowd and inject more energy into them. Also, personally, I am convinced that the ATC is too good of a driver, meaning that because it does so well right up to the extremes folks end up crossing it over right in the middle of our most sensitive phase regions (100-700 Hz, where most three-ways cross) and running it up to a point that is hard to integrate with a tweeter spaced a good distance away. Why not look at a wave guide like Earls or something like the DDS ENG 1-90 and put a pro compression driver on it (some are supposed to sound pretty darn good, you just have to be willing to sort em out) since you have such powerful DSP tools at your disposal. Then find a really nice 8 or 10 inch cone driver (Volt, PHL, JBL, Fostex...) that will have similar power response (to the waveguide) around 1.4-1.6kHz and cross them in that zone. Good cab design, maybe some creative cork/felt treatments around the drivers and/or the edge of the waveguide, and you have something that roars but also dances with finesse when called upon to do so. Then go back to Volt for some 12 or 15 inchers that kick a*@ and build your system to just run like the devil from 40 Hz to 18 kHz, and rather than chase driver cabinet combinations for subs, just find some attic or basement space (or vent it outside like a chimney) and go IB from 15-40Hz and get it over with. I think this is the only way to really nail down the performance that you are looking for below 40 Hz by the way, everything else is just futile unless you are willing to let Scott spec out some refrigerator size cabs, which I would do if I had the space...
3) Having said all that, thank you very much for the cabinet design ideas as I am probably going to go with something similar to your last example, but a bit more modest in final design components and scale, and run Volt 8" drivers top and bottom, with a custom machined plate to couple two Morel MDM-55's running from 800 Hz - 3,800 Hz (I know some think this is a sensitive area but I believe others like Jim Griffin who cross Jordans near this range and claim it works very very well) above and below the new Hiquphon OW4. I think this is a good "poor man's" version of what you are looking at... ( and then I save up for IB subs for phase two...)
Sorry for the long post, just venting here I guess. But since my vents are on topic I don't feel too bad about it : )
ShinOBIWAN said:
I certainly did! Sorry. I'm officially impressed with your approach and effort involved in all this. Well done!!!
Shin, If it's not too big PITA for you, can you introduce me with the problem that you have with this nice speaker of yours. At least, tell me which thread page should I look, please.
So, the problem stayed after redecoration?
If so, that can tell something about it's origin.
Is it SPL related?
Now I'd like to know more, though I'm not sure if I would be able to help you, don't expect much.
About being indecisive...well, we all are, most of the time.
omega87 said:
Nothing particularly wrong with them in the sense that it detracts from the sound.
I'm in this to build things rather than go out to design and build one speaker and then live happily ever after. DIY is addictive and no matter how good or bad something I build sounds, I'll always come back for more.
I've completed these ones and now its time to move on to the next ones with the idea of making improvements across the board.
Things I'd like to improve are vague audiophile attributes that really could mean a number of things, its tough to decribe sound. Thankfully I've got the benefit of DSP which greatly aids in refining and getting close to what works in your room and your tastes, sadly that only goes so far and eventually when you've been tweaking the XO for god only knows how many months, you come to the realisation that a new design and new drivers are the only way to address shortcomming that otherwise remain.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I've been somewhat following this thread, but not too much since I'm not an expert in woodwork. Maybe I've missed the part where you explain how they sound. Most people just explain the performance in good, mad, image and soudn stage which are subject to personal preference and can much be interpretated differently by each reader depending on thier experience. The ATC driver is a good example, lots of people say that it's good, but they do not meet your expectations. Looking at the data you posted and your intention for speakers to sound real and dynamic led me to just look at the data and find that definitely it will not meet your criteria. However, if certain specifics relating to live instruments, instrument separation in specifics music sources can be identified, its much easier to relate what you hear with measured data.
I could also send you two of the 3" wide range drivers I have now, and see how it sounds. They are not perfect yet, but they are good enough to reveal absolute polarity differences, component upgrades in such a way that a choice is obvious. Mail me if you are interested.
Re: This Thread Rocks, Hang In There Shin...
Why do people talk down line arrays when;
1. They have not built a line array.
2. If they have built a line array, the design isn't the best.
3. They auditioned a line array and all of a sudden that line array
represents all the line arrays in the world, past, present and future.
Why don't you audition some Bose 2 way loudspeakers and say
"2 way loudspeakers are no good, don't ever build a 2 way
loudspeaker! "
"I drove a car with an 8 cylinder engine and the experience was
poor, therefore all cars with 8 cylinders are bad, avoid them."
..... LOL ......
***************************************************
Here's the proper way;
I auditioned a line array designed by __________ or manufactured
by _____________ and [insert your experience]. In conclusion,
I like/dislike that design.
***************************************************
I don't know where everyone comes up with these wild
recommendations. I see this as a problem easily solved using
process of elimination and common sense.
Let me explain.
Since P v2.0 is the reference, a 3 way active loudspeaker using high
end drivers and electronics with DRC, w/room treatments, and the
sound didn't satisfy him 100%, then we can conclude that;
1. Any design in the same class will not satisfy him. Shin has
to go where no other Shin has gone before {Star Trek} .. LOL
2. Since SQ is the priorty, anything horn {with maybe exception
to a unity horn design}, will not be satisfactory, a downgrade in
SQ. I have horns and had enough playing time with them to
understand that there is nothing SQ about them vs. other designs.
3. Shin might like the Earl loudspeaker but find himself in the same
boat as he is now, no long term satisfaction.
4. I can't see Shin liking Wayne's designs, basshorns with
compression drivers, he wants high end SQ. This won't cut it.
The bass will have impact, but SQ is questionable as the design
would have to be perfectly executed, but this only address the
bass issue, not the full range issue.
5. I don't see much from the other vendors {volt, beyma, JBL, etc}
bringing anything to Shin's party of interest. Maybe some TAD
woofers in a 3 way. I don't see him loving pro audio compression
drivers.
Shin is perfect candidate for line array project, it's a no brainer.
Ride the horse and come find the Holy Grail... It's in a cave....
Might get lucky and find Noah's Ark too... inside you will find
a line array speaker and some Crown amps... Jesus loves Crown.
Why do people talk down line arrays when;
1. They have not built a line array.
2. If they have built a line array, the design isn't the best.
3. They auditioned a line array and all of a sudden that line array
represents all the line arrays in the world, past, present and future.
Why don't you audition some Bose 2 way loudspeakers and say
"2 way loudspeakers are no good, don't ever build a 2 way
loudspeaker! "
"I drove a car with an 8 cylinder engine and the experience was
poor, therefore all cars with 8 cylinders are bad, avoid them."
..... LOL ......
***************************************************
Here's the proper way;
I auditioned a line array designed by __________ or manufactured
by _____________ and [insert your experience]. In conclusion,
I like/dislike that design.
***************************************************
I don't know where everyone comes up with these wild
recommendations. I see this as a problem easily solved using
process of elimination and common sense.
Let me explain.
Since P v2.0 is the reference, a 3 way active loudspeaker using high
end drivers and electronics with DRC, w/room treatments, and the
sound didn't satisfy him 100%, then we can conclude that;
1. Any design in the same class will not satisfy him. Shin has
to go where no other Shin has gone before {Star Trek} .. LOL
2. Since SQ is the priorty, anything horn {with maybe exception
to a unity horn design}, will not be satisfactory, a downgrade in
SQ. I have horns and had enough playing time with them to
understand that there is nothing SQ about them vs. other designs.
3. Shin might like the Earl loudspeaker but find himself in the same
boat as he is now, no long term satisfaction.
4. I can't see Shin liking Wayne's designs, basshorns with
compression drivers, he wants high end SQ. This won't cut it.
The bass will have impact, but SQ is questionable as the design
would have to be perfectly executed, but this only address the
bass issue, not the full range issue.
5. I don't see much from the other vendors {volt, beyma, JBL, etc}
bringing anything to Shin's party of interest. Maybe some TAD
woofers in a 3 way. I don't see him loving pro audio compression
drivers.
Shin is perfect candidate for line array project, it's a no brainer.
Ride the horse and come find the Holy Grail... It's in a cave....
Might get lucky and find Noah's Ark too... inside you will find
a line array speaker and some Crown amps... Jesus loves Crown.
I would think if you can get single line arrays to work like a near ideal line source, it would be very good indeed. How about just making a full range ribbon that decays as fast as the RAAR? Nice and big, different sized ribbons for various frequency ranges and you can drive a selection of ribbons with active XOs whatever way you like. Much less wood work and more metal work.
Now the secret is out...
Now the secret is out...
omega87 said:
can you say "proprietary"? 😀 (..and sadly it really does *have* to be this way to sell a product.)
..besides, with the basics of the design I'm aware of only one person that I'd seriously like to ape some info. from (..MarkMck). He excels in driver modification, and from what I'm seeing with most midrange driver's, I'm going to have to do the same to get what I'm looking for (..plus it needs to be predictable/repeatable). (..and we aren't just talking about rear-wave dampening fixes, instead rather - cutting into the diaphram and such to break-up standing waves.)
..from a marketing view-point though, the upshot is that when you say the drivers you use are *substantially modified* - its actually true and not some marketing BS (..as any number of manufacturers currently do).
I'm also considering making my own narrow ribbon supertweeter for enhanced off-axis performance and capable of 1st order crossover around 6 kHz. At some point I may well start a thread for this in the planar forum section.
Thylantyr,
I am probably the slow guy here, but I didn't get much from your post except a sense of how high that horse is you are on, and that you are still dragging a dead horse through this thread, which is your insistance that a line array is the only way to go.
I was quite impressed by the very good line array implementation I have heard, and found the experience to be very consistent with the descriptions from folks I have heard from (builders, owners, listeners...). If you think Rick Craig doesn't know much about building line arrays then that is fine, but I will call you out on just what you think is so unreasonable about my two points on line arrays. I guess only Shin can answer point B, which is that I think he finds the industrial design challenge a bit boring, as would I; and I am quite comfortable with point A, which is that line arrays, regardless of how well executed, will always throw a presentation with a stereo image that is physically and audibly different than a point source design, and not everyone will like that difference.
I to am LOL, by the way, as you take me to task for rendering an opinion on a single listening experience and then you so elegantly describe Shin's system, like I don't already know having stated that I have read this entire thread form the beginning, and declare that since his experience with this single design doesn't cut it, no three way dynamic loudspeaker will ever cut it for him. And your reference to Bose is not lost on me, and hopefully your undue arrogance will become more self-evident shoud you have the patience for some retrospection here.
I am probably the slow guy here, but I didn't get much from your post except a sense of how high that horse is you are on, and that you are still dragging a dead horse through this thread, which is your insistance that a line array is the only way to go.
I was quite impressed by the very good line array implementation I have heard, and found the experience to be very consistent with the descriptions from folks I have heard from (builders, owners, listeners...). If you think Rick Craig doesn't know much about building line arrays then that is fine, but I will call you out on just what you think is so unreasonable about my two points on line arrays. I guess only Shin can answer point B, which is that I think he finds the industrial design challenge a bit boring, as would I; and I am quite comfortable with point A, which is that line arrays, regardless of how well executed, will always throw a presentation with a stereo image that is physically and audibly different than a point source design, and not everyone will like that difference.
I to am LOL, by the way, as you take me to task for rendering an opinion on a single listening experience and then you so elegantly describe Shin's system, like I don't already know having stated that I have read this entire thread form the beginning, and declare that since his experience with this single design doesn't cut it, no three way dynamic loudspeaker will ever cut it for him. And your reference to Bose is not lost on me, and hopefully your undue arrogance will become more self-evident shoud you have the patience for some retrospection here.
soongsc said:
TBH I can't remember where I posted my thoughts, its been an ongoing thing with improvements along the way.
The ATC is driver that gets a lot of hype (often by folks who've never even heard it!) and it certainly has its own 'signature' that creates a powerful impression(usually love it or hate it) but its not what I'd call the last word in transparency and nor is it any easy driver to work with.
I don't post measured data for my designs on forums. Why not? Because its simply not neccessary, I use the data as a tool to help me. Passing it into the public domain results in folks diagnosing problems that don't exist, aren't audible or aren't indicative of subjective performance. You've heard the phrase "too many cooks spoil the broth" haven't you?
If your interested and want to chat via email then I can post them to you.
Simply know that regarding measured performance in terms of time and amplitude behaviour the loudspeaker could be consider a reference considering the limitation given by a 3-way particularly in terms of driver time alignment. This is in no small part due to digital tweaking set over many months. I wanted accuracy so the loudspeaker and XO work were designed that way. Iteration through measurements then tweaking resulted in excellent measured performance.
Can I make the design more musical? Yep, switch the XO's to 2nd/4th order, boost the low end a tad and the range above 4Khz. Switching back and forth between the accurate and musical presets makes the accurate setting sound positively boring, yet stop for a second and you realise that the accurate setting is actually the far more satisfying one; imaging is tight, tonality is natural and unforced, there's depth in the soundfield and generally the sound stops comming from the speakers and is just in the space before you.
So I'm not dissappointed with the speakers, I'm simply looking for my next project. I don't believe its worthwhile to look at the v2 and then design around measured defects whether in the drivers themselves or the design as a whole. Better is to get the drivers, measure performance and design around them.
I'm getting close to what I'll be taking an initial look at. The RAAL is definitely on the list, I'll also compare that to my existing R2904's. For midrange I'm going to look at the Accuton C90-T6 and a PHL special edition which shall remain anonymous for now 😉 😀. For Bass I'm going to take a look at the W26 which will likely mate well with the stiff cone of the Accuton and as a foil to the W26 and more likely match for the PHL will be the 11" TAD.
That's two rather different approaches and I'll be buying only single units but it will give me a good idea of where to head.
I think the rest will come together naturally based upon the conclusion drawn from those comparisons.
Re: This Thread Rocks, Hang In There Shin...
Thankyou Greg, one of the reasons I post here is to help others out and also to get help back when I need it. Therefor I'm pleased that you've enjoyed and taken something away from all of this, its what makes this worthwhile.
Also thanks for your insights.
Greggo said:
Thankyou Greg, one of the reasons I post here is to help others out and also to get help back when I need it. Therefor I'm pleased that you've enjoyed and taken something away from all of this, its what makes this worthwhile.
Also thanks for your insights.
Greggo said:
Don't mind Thy. He's a good guy really. He used to talk down to me like that too in the beginning, now we've built up mutual respect and he only does it every so often. 😀
Its just that very little seemed to please him up until the point he tried line arrays, so he's justifiably enthused if a little repetitive. He's tried a lot of drivers though in his search so has plenty of practical and real world experience to bring to the party when talking about individual drivers.
His arrogance probably comes from the fact that when his system is finished it has 'sky's the limit' potential in terms of distortion and SPL and providing he really tweaks the XO and power tapering it could prove to have very strong audiophile qualities too.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.