ScottG said:
I'm having trouble with synchrinizing (time windowing to avoid room reflections) below 102.5 dB of SPL, so here's the data for that SPL.
Mind the fact that both measurements were taken WITH passive crossover ( active filter gives the same results), to avoid distortion caused by amplifier pumping current in low primary inductance of the imp. matching transormer. That doesn't happen with other drivers, and this way, it is assured that comparisons are meaningful.
Attachments
Re: Re: Re: Re: very good ?
You must have much better recordings than I do then. Most of what I consider dynamic music (say a large symphonic orcherstra playing really dynamic piece) has been compressed to bu##ery in order to be playable in domestic environment. Yes, there are few gimick recordings that may require transient insanity you're after (breaking bottles and like) but I don't really listen that kind of music (sic) much 😀
I said this before and I'll be boring enough to repeat it again - when I want real, I go to real concerts. There I can hear first hand what a brass section in full flight is capable of, or have the guts shaken by impact of a large tympani or Kodo drum.
I have no problem with fact that those moments cannot be replicated in my home with today's technology. In fact I'm not sure I'd want them replicated at my home ! My psychology at least works in a funny way - SPLs in a large venue that are quite comfortable become unbearably loud at home. It all has to do with the visual senses - knowing the enormous volume of the Melbourne concert hall, and hearing and feeling a loud impact there makes me very aware of the energies involved. In fact, even if it was perhaps not as loud, my brain makes it more loud, and I am impressed and awed by the experience - if this makes any sense.
At home, even if my listening room is largish by average standards (8x5x3m) it is still only a room. So when speakers emulate the same loud event, I'm again aware that energy involved is laughably small compared to the original. I then crank it up, and then my ears are ringing and telling me that it is too loud ! Confusing ?
So I guess, yes, you can count me into a "polite" camp 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:
You must have much better recordings than I do then. Most of what I consider dynamic music (say a large symphonic orcherstra playing really dynamic piece) has been compressed to bu##ery in order to be playable in domestic environment. Yes, there are few gimick recordings that may require transient insanity you're after (breaking bottles and like) but I don't really listen that kind of music (sic) much 😀
I said this before and I'll be boring enough to repeat it again - when I want real, I go to real concerts. There I can hear first hand what a brass section in full flight is capable of, or have the guts shaken by impact of a large tympani or Kodo drum.
I have no problem with fact that those moments cannot be replicated in my home with today's technology. In fact I'm not sure I'd want them replicated at my home ! My psychology at least works in a funny way - SPLs in a large venue that are quite comfortable become unbearably loud at home. It all has to do with the visual senses - knowing the enormous volume of the Melbourne concert hall, and hearing and feeling a loud impact there makes me very aware of the energies involved. In fact, even if it was perhaps not as loud, my brain makes it more loud, and I am impressed and awed by the experience - if this makes any sense.
At home, even if my listening room is largish by average standards (8x5x3m) it is still only a room. So when speakers emulate the same loud event, I'm again aware that energy involved is laughably small compared to the original. I then crank it up, and then my ears are ringing and telling me that it is too loud ! Confusing ?
So I guess, yes, you can count me into a "polite" camp 😉
I mostly agree, count me in for a 90-92 db polite musical full range revealing monitor kind of speaker 🙂
tinitus said:
A pair of these should be audio nirvana for you then:
http://www.mackie.com/products/hr626/
If my future project doesn't yield 130dB[c] of midrange and treble,
140dB[c] bass/midbass @ audiophile quality, then I will be sad
Why? Because if the system has the potential to play high SPL cleanly,
then imagine how well it performs at normal SPL levels.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html
In order for untrained listeners to perceive no obvious squashing of dynamics, audio reproduction systems should be capable of the following peak-to-average ratios for these stimuli:
SOURCE MATERIAL / CREST FACTOR
ROCK MUSIC 10 dB
HORNS (legato notes) 10 dB
REEDS (legato notes) 12 dB
STRINGS (bowed) 15 dB
SPEECH 20 dB
PIANO 30 dB
POP MUSIC 40 dB
STRINGS (plucked) 40 dB
DRUMS 40 dB
ORCHESTRAL MUSIC 50 dB
INDIVIDUAL PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS 60 dB
GENERAL HIGH-FIDELITY REPRODUCTION 60 dB
Headroom rules!
140dB[c] bass/midbass @ audiophile quality, then I will be sad
Why? Because if the system has the potential to play high SPL cleanly,
then imagine how well it performs at normal SPL levels.
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/1-intro.html
In order for untrained listeners to perceive no obvious squashing of dynamics, audio reproduction systems should be capable of the following peak-to-average ratios for these stimuli:
SOURCE MATERIAL / CREST FACTOR
ROCK MUSIC 10 dB
HORNS (legato notes) 10 dB
REEDS (legato notes) 12 dB
STRINGS (bowed) 15 dB
SPEECH 20 dB
PIANO 30 dB
POP MUSIC 40 dB
STRINGS (plucked) 40 dB
DRUMS 40 dB
ORCHESTRAL MUSIC 50 dB
INDIVIDUAL PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS 60 dB
GENERAL HIGH-FIDELITY REPRODUCTION 60 dB
Headroom rules!
omega87 said:
Thank you!
Thats rather excellent for a ribbon tweeter of this size. That would likely place a 97db 2nd order figure at 3 kHz to about .5%. 3rd order is a bit high at higher freq.s, but thats normal for a ribbon this large.
IF a proper waveguide (..with its acoustic gain), is implemented then I'd expect the lower freq. response to be similar in non-linear distortion to the values at 3 kHz.
In this instance then (with a good waveguide) I think this driver could easily give the Raven 3.2 a "run for its money".
The RAAL looks rather clean. But using 4 in a 2x2 array will result in combing effect. Not sure how it sounds in that configuration. Probably two would be enough if you crossed them at 5K~10K.
ScottG said:
Good waveguide looks as a good solution at a glance, but unfortunately, it is just a nice theory. Been there, done that. Not just IMO, there is a feel of undesireble "tension" in waveguide sound, no matter how low the distortion may be. Something tells me that you know that already. "Life" thought me: the closer to omni, the better. You gotta fix the room for that, but on the other hand, you gotta fox the room for any Hi-Fi.
thylantyr said:If my future project doesn't yield 130dB[c] of midrange and treble,
140dB[c] bass/midbass @ audiophile quality, then I will be sad
Very serious figures.
You will need a lot of power, a lot of speakers and lots of space.
This equation usually equals to lot of $$$.
Take a look at the system, pushing 120 dB (rock music)average SPL at 20 feet away. Max SPL is beyond simple SPL meter, but big enough that there is no audible compression or distortion except in listener's ears.
Attachments
I've been chatting with Aleksandar of RAAL about the posibility of a custom ribbon that would meet my requirements of a true wide band design.
It seems he has many interesting projects and in particular was a multi ribbon dipole design that has a radiating area equal to an 8" cone driver.
Here's the email and a few pictures of this very intriguing transducer:
Very interesting design indeed.
It seems he has many interesting projects and in particular was a multi ribbon dipole design that has a radiating area equal to an 8" cone driver.
Here's the email and a few pictures of this very intriguing transducer:
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Very interesting design indeed.
If the performance band width is the same, you definitly get much more SPL. You even might be able to get a littl lower frequency, but not much due to the limited displacement.
Very serious figures.
I set my goals high 🙂
You will need a lot of power
62kw of proamp 🙂
a lot of speakers
40 drivers
and lots of space.
I can get high SPL in a small space.
This equation usually equals to lot of $$$.
yes
re: Radio Shack meter with a reading of 119dB.
I can get >126dB[c], 12 feet from my cheap line array, 50 cent
midwoofers and $25 tweeters. This is midbass, the upper
frequencies are 110db - 115dB. Midrange frequencies I have
pushed to 120-122dB. Only four proamps too.
I set my goals high 🙂
You will need a lot of power
62kw of proamp 🙂
a lot of speakers
40 drivers
and lots of space.
I can get high SPL in a small space.
This equation usually equals to lot of $$$.
yes
re: Radio Shack meter with a reading of 119dB.
I can get >126dB[c], 12 feet from my cheap line array, 50 cent
midwoofers and $25 tweeters. This is midbass, the upper
frequencies are 110db - 115dB. Midrange frequencies I have
pushed to 120-122dB. Only four proamps too.
ShinOBIWAN said:I've been chatting with Aleksandar of RAAL about the posibility of a custom ribbon that would meet my requirements of a true wide band design.
It seems he has many interesting projects and in particular was a multi ribbon dipole design that has a radiating area equal to an 8" cone driver.
Here's the email and a few pictures of this very intriguing transducer:
Very interesting design indeed.
Nice DIY project. 😎
Horizontal line source ? hehehe ...
omega87 said:
Indeed. 😉
(..my preference is a none-waveguide omni - at least horizontally and to at least 160 degrees in the "frontal" plane. That's what I'd prefer, not what is neccesarily realistic to purchase or fabricate.)
However it would be comparable to the Raven.. AND it isn't quite so "wrong" the lower in freq. you go with it. More over, a constant horizontal directivity can be more important than greater dispersion (..with some dissimilar radiation patterns). Additionally, some diffraction effects may be bettered by a good waveguide.
In this case the worst effect of such a loading would be around 2-3 kHz, where the listener starts becoming more spl-dependent for image position. Acoustic center will have a "wider" character here, but it shouldn't be much wider than a good midrange dome (..subjectivly depth will suffer a little but width should improve slightly).
ShinOBIWAN said:
VERY cool - but also no doubt VERY costly! 😉
I'd personally like to see fewer elements (about 6) and a much more narrow width. Acoustic center would appear VERY large with such a design as it currently is - which would make imaging very "fat".
I can't afford the custom jobs from RAAL. Its a huge risk because the product is still in the development stages.
I also don't like the idea of crossing a 26cn2 surface with +/- 0.5mm excursion at 800hz. I'm talking about the Raven R3.2MMX. And if I'm moving the XO point up then why bother with the R3.2MMX at all?
So I've been looking back towards 3-way designs as 2-ways are simply compromised for what I'm wanting ie. driver that covers 800hz and up, crossed to a pair of 8-10" drivers.
So here we go again, maybe I should change my username to punkrockr 😉
I was thinking 3-way with either RAAL, AC G1 or maybe even the SA if I can get around the mounting problems. Coupled with a pair of Accuton C90-T6 midranges and something like a pair of Seas W26 or Accuton C220-T6.
Accuton C90-T6:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=583379.15150&pid=1899
Accuton C220-T6
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=583379.15150&pid=1275
Seas W26:
http://www.seas.no/PDF data excel 05-06/W26FX001E0026.pdf
Crossover points would like be around 1.5Khz and 200hz.
I'd likely also try the design out with the newer Scan Aircirc tweeter when it become available.
Big depature from the Raven/Supravox setup. Costs are around the same and pretty much max out my strict $6k budget for drivers.
What I believe that setup above brings is lower distortion, better bass performance, higher power handling.
I also don't like the idea of crossing a 26cn2 surface with +/- 0.5mm excursion at 800hz. I'm talking about the Raven R3.2MMX. And if I'm moving the XO point up then why bother with the R3.2MMX at all?
So I've been looking back towards 3-way designs as 2-ways are simply compromised for what I'm wanting ie. driver that covers 800hz and up, crossed to a pair of 8-10" drivers.
So here we go again, maybe I should change my username to punkrockr 😉
I was thinking 3-way with either RAAL, AC G1 or maybe even the SA if I can get around the mounting problems. Coupled with a pair of Accuton C90-T6 midranges and something like a pair of Seas W26 or Accuton C220-T6.
Accuton C90-T6:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=583379.15150&pid=1899
Accuton C220-T6
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=583379.15150&pid=1275
Seas W26:
http://www.seas.no/PDF data excel 05-06/W26FX001E0026.pdf
Crossover points would like be around 1.5Khz and 200hz.
I'd likely also try the design out with the newer Scan Aircirc tweeter when it become available.
Big depature from the Raven/Supravox setup. Costs are around the same and pretty much max out my strict $6k budget for drivers.
What I believe that setup above brings is lower distortion, better bass performance, higher power handling.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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