Greggo said:
Don't worry, very few understand my methodologies. In a sick
way, I'm happy about it so it remains unique.
😎
No doubt that said persons know how to build line arrays but
there is more potential to be harnessed from them and I haven't
seen it yet from others. I've already littered this thread with the clues and
people missed it or don't believe. No big deal for me. Anyone
who has experimented with line array and tried to exploit all
their power will form the same conclusion as I, this is not rocket science, this is simple stuff.
re: the line array dead horse that's been beaten. We exchange
emails on said subject and posting it here is more of an inside joke
unbeknownst to the others. LOL ... don't worry about it.
I'm still suspicious that the P v2.0's might not have been fully
exploited due to lack of clipping headroom. Shin are you listening,
pony up and get six QSC PLX3402 amps and watch those ATC drivers sing
...........ShinOBIWAN said:
It *is* a different perspective. 😎
..not to worry though, I'm still here making suggestions (..and to compound your confusion)! 😀 Say, did I tell you about this driver that.....................................................................................................................................................................................
EDIT: ...why not throw in a curiosity that converges nicely with what I've been recently been discussing..
http://www.warrengregoire.com/hifi-stereo-ikonoklast-tweeters.htm
Shin might like this.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/horn.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/wisdom/wisdom_3.jpg
Poorly executed line array;
http://members.cox.net/ryandto/Line Array/Line Array pc.JPG
No enclosure.
No speaker wire
Watch out, the Cobra will get you.
http://www.tech-tronicsinc.com/nss-folder/pictures/cobra-teaser.gif
One Line array drawback;
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/HowburgerIBsmall.jpg
One line array advantage;
http://www.lolcars.com/images/lots-of-loudspeakers.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/horn.jpg
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/wisdom/wisdom_3.jpg
Poorly executed line array;
http://members.cox.net/ryandto/Line Array/Line Array pc.JPG
No enclosure.
No speaker wire
Watch out, the Cobra will get you.
http://www.tech-tronicsinc.com/nss-folder/pictures/cobra-teaser.gif
One Line array drawback;
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/HowburgerIBsmall.jpg
One line array advantage;
http://www.lolcars.com/images/lots-of-loudspeakers.jpg
thylantyr said:
So thats what you look like Thy!
Is the one at the top your Dad? 😀 😀 😀
Wasn't that the 'Sonic Cannon' paid for by the US military?
ScottG said:
I'm probably just cynical but read this quote from the website selling those tweeters:
The tweeters may be returned to us for a 50% refund within 30 days after being received by the buyer. Cost to repair any damage to the units by the customer shall also be deducted from any refund. We regret that we must charge this relatively high "restocking fee" but, otherwise we feel we would likely receive an unduly large number of orders from persons who have no intention of keeping the product.
Reading all that and keeping in mind the part in bold type, all I take away from that is that the tweeters probably suck and don't justify their cost, which was highlighted by the fact they had so many returned before they introduced what can only be considered as a slap in the face return policy.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Prob. quite true.. on the otherhand did you read the review? (..the prob. the reviewer had was that there was not only no bafflestep compensation, but that there was actually a dip in response in this region - i.e. nothing to do with the tweeter.)
Don't get me wrong - it wasn't a suggestion.. for any number of reasons it won't "fit" with what you are currently planning. This is why I called it a "curiosity". 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:
I think you said it all.
In my experience, trial is the only way to find what you really need, or even discover what you need, because you weren't aware of that before. Like with women.
You can do everything humanly possible in implementation of some set of drivers, but that won't help them, if they don't have it in the first place. They either have it, or they don't. You can hear that almost instantly after hooking them up in sove very simple setup. The rest is just giving them a nice habitat, where they feel good. If the driver hasn't got it right away, it will never get it, no matter how hard you try. Also, SPL is a very secondary matter if they have that special something that you need. You rarely sit in the frst row of seats in a concert hall, but your pleasure is not diminished by not having 120 dB. What you need is natural sound, for which the most important feature is how drivers cope with SMALL signal. Not large. I bet you can recognize live musuc playing from 1/4 mile away. This is our ability to distinct what happens in 20-40 dB of SPL, not 120. At the moment, you don't have drivers that can do it, and when you do, you'll forget 130 dB systems.
I don't know if this helps you, but believe me the task is more complicated than making high SPL systems, and much more rewarding.
pinkmouse said:
Behave! 🙂
😀
Tsk, Tsk.
My writing was well within the guidlines.
Can I help it if a reader envisions something other than stated?
😀omega87 said:
You don't want to be in the first row ! The orchestra is big, if you sit too close the sonic picture is way too skewed towards violins and violas. My preferred seat is circle or balcony in fact - you can hear every intrument directly. I gave up on stalls after having problems hearing the triangle and small percussions (they are invariably right at the back of the orchestra) when rest of the orchestra is in full flight. From up above you are in a direct line of sight with every instrument on stage.
Bingo.
SPL and transients do impress - for a short time.
Then you are left wondering with what is missing.
BTW, you said 'at the moment you don't have drivers that can do it' - you aren't saying there ARE drivers that can do that ?
I haven't heard them yet - and I've heard a fair bit of audio exotica in my life. Yes, some of the simpler stuff can be reproduced rather well with state of the art transducers (as Dunlavy has demonstrated that with Sovereigns and a guitar player long ago). But add a musican or hundred and a proper venue, and things change dramatically.
Not even a complete novice (let alone a music proffessor) will be fooled they are in a concert hall rather than in front of a couple of (expensive) wooden boxes.
It is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned - the best thing I can do is live with the fact.
And go to more live concerts ! 😀
Bratislav,
Sometimes I prefere 10th row(in one particular concert hall in Belgrade, and sometimes balcony right, above the orchestra.
I can't say that I'm going there as often as I should, I'm more of a clubs visitior, on band playing nights. Can drink and talk with my friends 😉 .
I'm not exactly saying that there aren't drivers that can cope with small signal well better than 90% of others, there are. But first, let me explain. You don't need exceptionally good small signal behaviour so bad below 1.5k, it doesnt hurt if you can have it, but it's far from critical. Natural decay of room where music is recorded is longer below than above 1.5k, and doesn't carry much details in it.
I think that MF-HF crossover fr. should be (Cheers, Greggo), not below 1.5 and no higher than 1.8k. For midrange you don't need something out of this world. Especially not soft domes, whatever they may be called. ATC has damn good LF drivers, but for me, better than average 7" midrange, like SS revelator is just fine(more than that, in fact). On the other side of soft, hard cones like ceramics or metal is a waste of time and money. Paper or well done PP cone is golden, preferably lightweight, but not too much, as that bears different set of problems. Above 1.5k, only damn good ribbons can do the job, because of letting abundance of details coming out in recorded decay (very low level signal, ignored by other transducers), and that's that. LF driver according to personal preference in that region, but preferably 12" or 15". If you get the right top, you can play with LF as much as you like, and it wouldn't hurt if you have a couple of mistakes there. LF region does not carry significant information about nature of the signal, so it doesn't add much in getting reality coming out.
Sometimes I prefere 10th row(in one particular concert hall in Belgrade, and sometimes balcony right, above the orchestra.
I can't say that I'm going there as often as I should, I'm more of a clubs visitior, on band playing nights. Can drink and talk with my friends 😉 .
I'm not exactly saying that there aren't drivers that can cope with small signal well better than 90% of others, there are. But first, let me explain. You don't need exceptionally good small signal behaviour so bad below 1.5k, it doesnt hurt if you can have it, but it's far from critical. Natural decay of room where music is recorded is longer below than above 1.5k, and doesn't carry much details in it.
I think that MF-HF crossover fr. should be (Cheers, Greggo), not below 1.5 and no higher than 1.8k. For midrange you don't need something out of this world. Especially not soft domes, whatever they may be called. ATC has damn good LF drivers, but for me, better than average 7" midrange, like SS revelator is just fine(more than that, in fact). On the other side of soft, hard cones like ceramics or metal is a waste of time and money. Paper or well done PP cone is golden, preferably lightweight, but not too much, as that bears different set of problems. Above 1.5k, only damn good ribbons can do the job, because of letting abundance of details coming out in recorded decay (very low level signal, ignored by other transducers), and that's that. LF driver according to personal preference in that region, but preferably 12" or 15". If you get the right top, you can play with LF as much as you like, and it wouldn't hurt if you have a couple of mistakes there. LF region does not carry significant information about nature of the signal, so it doesn't add much in getting reality coming out.
omega87 said:
I was just off to bed but had to address that.
LF is as important as the higher frequency, it adds extra special cue's that increase not only the impact but the dimensions, realism and believability too.
A house has foundations, music has LF content.
Unsurprisingly I disagree with some of the rest but its all quite personal and no one will agree on everything, so I hardly think its worth addressing.
Shin, my advice would be not to make a change just for changes sake. Look around, study what's out there and take your time planning for something that's going to mean a REAL & SIGNIFICANT upgrade in performance. That's not going to be easy to achieve given the high standard you have achieved thus far. The last thing you you want to do is take a retrograde step.
Everybody's has their own philosophy and priorities. Mine is linear phase, or at least using as gentle filterss as possible - I believe in you want accuracy & truly real dynamics, steep filters just don't cut it. It's just a matter of finding drivers that are up to the task.
http://sound.westhost.com/ptd.htm
Everybody's has their own philosophy and priorities. Mine is linear phase, or at least using as gentle filterss as possible - I believe in you want accuracy & truly real dynamics, steep filters just don't cut it. It's just a matter of finding drivers that are up to the task.
http://sound.westhost.com/ptd.htm
David Gatti said:
Thanks David,
For now I'm just going to buy a small selection of drivers, then do some listening/measurements and take it from there.
I keep comming back to that Manger driver because of its god-like time based behaviour. No traditional 3-way on the planet will touch upon those qualities. Its expensive at over £500 but when you consider the price of a good midrange and tweeter combo its actually not so bad.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I personally think that the Manger is not what you are looking for. It has it's own sound due to the way the membrane vibrates. Some people will like it, and others don't. I have listened to a pair, the ones with one Manger and one woofer. The transients did not sound as quick as real instruments. Pianos sounded a bit soft and the fine harmonics were also lost.
The god-like time based behaviour is under specific conditions. If you get to measure them yourself, you will probably find that most of your measurements will not look like that.
soongsc said:
I place more priority in listening to drivers than to place too
much emphasis on technicals. Some of the best sounding
drivers that I like may not have the best charts. That's what
I'm trying to tell Shin. The only way to know what sound you
like from drivers is to buy samples and audition. I have not
found an alternative method that yields the same results of
finding satisfaction.
Manger is a great example of how in theory it's a great driver,
but too many reports of 'boring sound' have surfaced, therefore
there is no guarantee that the technically perfect driver or
loudspeaker will work for everyone.
soongsc said:
Very true, it would be nice to get a listen though.
On another note, I order a pair of RAAL's because Aleksandar is pulled out with work at the minute making them and its going to be about 6-7 weeks on the waiting list. That's always a good sign when you dealing with hand made products built in small quantities.
As a bonus he's offered up a price thats cheaper, by a fair way, over Solens.
thylantyr said:
Well, I wouldn't call any driver technically perfect because there are just so many aspects that it really take quite a while to get a handle on all of them, and in the end, still find that you have to trade off somewhere due to physical limitations and cost limitations.
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