+1 for getting those sub's sorted and high passing the MIDs. Your room is huge.
I would be tempted to revert back to the original xover once that is done and adjust from there. With some of the bass relieved from the MIDs I have always noticed a major change in balance that has made me rethink what I am really hearing.
I know with passive crossovers that its always worth having a reference and making changes just one at a time then listening. Stop, come back the next day after a good sleep and listening again.
I would often just listen to the tweeters and MIDs by themselves with the other drivers disconnected to pinpoint issues. Very revealing.
Good luck.
I would be tempted to revert back to the original xover once that is done and adjust from there. With some of the bass relieved from the MIDs I have always noticed a major change in balance that has made me rethink what I am really hearing.
I know with passive crossovers that its always worth having a reference and making changes just one at a time then listening. Stop, come back the next day after a good sleep and listening again.
I would often just listen to the tweeters and MIDs by themselves with the other drivers disconnected to pinpoint issues. Very revealing.
Good luck.
Well, 4th order filters is the best approach with a 6" bass, isn't it? Get some steep rolloff to improve power handling and reduce cone breakup. 😎I believe that the Peerless tweeter that Kevin and I used for this speaker (The Exodus Audio "Kepler") is the same that is being discussed.
SoundStage! "D-I-Why & How" -- Exodus Audio Kepler Loudspeakers (4/2008)
The speaker shown here and on the top of the first Soundstage page is actually my personal speaker.
Best Regards,
TerryO
But dear old Troels has used something less good and cheaper. But good enough for most folks, I suppose. Except for Clausen with his golden ears! 😀
IMO, 2.5 is ugly, and 6" bass is ugly. And the 2 bass drivers sharing an enclosure is messy too. Worst of all worlds. 😉
What about four 6" sharing the same enclosure in a 2.5 way design 😀 cf. The Elsinore speakers from J Rasmussen.
Maybe it's your last comment 😕
http://www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_index.htm
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There's nothing wrong with using multiple drivers per cabinet providing they are reasonably well matched and then there's nothing wrong with using two mismatched drivers in a single cabinet either, Wilson have been doing this for a long time with good success.
In an absolutely ideal world you would have separate and perfectly tuned spaces within the cabinets for each driver, but then you could argue, why bother? The T/S parameters are taken only for one drive level and these will shift under different drive conditions. Your perfectly tuned ported cabinet wont be perfect when you turn up the volume. Usually this isn't a huge problem.
Not to keep contradicting you Steve, but there's also nothing inherently wrong with 6" bass either it's just that most two ways are quite the compromise, even more so when you impose stand mount limitations. Most 6" drivers work better in cabinets larger than a stand mount will allow. Indeed going 2.5 way also imposes some limitations on the internal volume unless you cherry pick your drivers or use a particularly deep cabinet.
As it is the 830875 will work very well in smaller ported enclosures.
In an absolutely ideal world you would have separate and perfectly tuned spaces within the cabinets for each driver, but then you could argue, why bother? The T/S parameters are taken only for one drive level and these will shift under different drive conditions. Your perfectly tuned ported cabinet wont be perfect when you turn up the volume. Usually this isn't a huge problem.
Not to keep contradicting you Steve, but there's also nothing inherently wrong with 6" bass either it's just that most two ways are quite the compromise, even more so when you impose stand mount limitations. Most 6" drivers work better in cabinets larger than a stand mount will allow. Indeed going 2.5 way also imposes some limitations on the internal volume unless you cherry pick your drivers or use a particularly deep cabinet.
As it is the 830875 will work very well in smaller ported enclosures.
I don't know why Pascal keeps going on about the Elsinore. We're not talking about that one! 😕
And you can, of course, put two drivers in the same enclosure, but the conditions for it to work well are quite subtle. And 90% of speakers get it wrong.
6" paper bass has enough time alignment error to be troubling on a flat baffle, and enough cone breakup to be annoying on simple filters. IMO. Now let's get back to that sad, broken old Nomex 164. 😀
And you can, of course, put two drivers in the same enclosure, but the conditions for it to work well are quite subtle. And 90% of speakers get it wrong.
6" paper bass has enough time alignment error to be troubling on a flat baffle, and enough cone breakup to be annoying on simple filters. IMO. Now let's get back to that sad, broken old Nomex 164. 😀
It seems that we were talking about the HDS tweeter and 830875 😀
System7, You are talking about speakers you haven't heard.
Can you post a link on a speaker you have build and not only simulate please
(with a perfect design and sounding good)
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Well you said it, it needs a crossover redesign to be at its best. A steep (4th order acoustic) xover as low as the HDS will comfortably go would be my recommendation, probably something around 1800Hz. But first should be sealing the ports and adding in a high pass to the mains, lighten the load to them and sort out the subs so that they fill in where the mains roll off.
Pascal...I really appreciate your input...it helped me figure out I screwed up the bass of this speaker.
But cheer leading how great this tweeter is, isn't helping me. It sounds harsh to me PERIOD! It doesn't matter what it sounds like to you. To me, the sound is a deal breaker. I don't care what measurements ANYONE can produce. Measurements won't change my bleeding ears!
I don't mean to be a jerk, you have been VERY helpful. So please understand I appreciate WHAT YOU HAVE SAID SO FAR. Understand my bluntness is simply to make a point!
I most likely will use some of your suggestions for this tweeter. But to my ears if it is not a frequency issue these things are just too LOUD! If they are too loud that can be fixed. If measurements say they are not too loud...then they trick the measurements, but not my ears! So they cannot be fixed IMO!
What I am trying to say is this....I recognize these tweeters have a huge following. If I can fix my issue, maybe I can be one of them, however, I am NOT ONE NOW!
Bleeding ears signing off....
But cheer leading how great this tweeter is, isn't helping me. It sounds harsh to me PERIOD! It doesn't matter what it sounds like to you. To me, the sound is a deal breaker. I don't care what measurements ANYONE can produce. Measurements won't change my bleeding ears!
I don't mean to be a jerk, you have been VERY helpful. So please understand I appreciate WHAT YOU HAVE SAID SO FAR. Understand my bluntness is simply to make a point!
I most likely will use some of your suggestions for this tweeter. But to my ears if it is not a frequency issue these things are just too LOUD! If they are too loud that can be fixed. If measurements say they are not too loud...then they trick the measurements, but not my ears! So they cannot be fixed IMO!
What I am trying to say is this....I recognize these tweeters have a huge following. If I can fix my issue, maybe I can be one of them, however, I am NOT ONE NOW!
Bleeding ears signing off....
Then alter the resistive padding to lower the tweeter level. You said you were having good results with this before, keep going!
If the tweeter level is incorrect it can take your ears off and make it quite uncomfortable to listen to.
If the tweeter level is incorrect it can take your ears off and make it quite uncomfortable to listen to.
Hi Clausen,
1 - you should go back to the original TG crossover values
2 - listen for few days
3 - then try lowering the tweeter : R1051 et R1061 1.2 and 15 ohms (omiting R1061 as TG suggested sound awful IMHO)
As proposed by 5th element if you play loud, you can use a sub as described with a high pass on the Nomex and stuffing the port.
I've also lowered the box tuning, TG advice was 45 hz, mine is lower around 35 hz as i remember.
PS : I attachment the speakers in working on : 8"+1.2" (Audax tw034)
1 - you should go back to the original TG crossover values
2 - listen for few days
3 - then try lowering the tweeter : R1051 et R1061 1.2 and 15 ohms (omiting R1061 as TG suggested sound awful IMHO)
As proposed by 5th element if you play loud, you can use a sub as described with a high pass on the Nomex and stuffing the port.
I've also lowered the box tuning, TG advice was 45 hz, mine is lower around 35 hz as i remember.
PS : I attachment the speakers in working on : 8"+1.2" (Audax tw034)
Attachments
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Hi Clausen. It's worth mentioning that the HDS Tweeter in the Elsinore uses a separate waveguide as I'm sure your well aware and according to Joe Rasmussen is the key to it's performance. I built a pair a of Elsinore's about 3 years ago and most certainly do not find the HDS tweeter to be harsh at all in this application. FYI I'm using Jantzen Superior Z caps in the Xover.
I hope to have some time this weekend to mess with the xover. The parts I ordered won't be here until Tuesday, but I'm going to return the original coils, and while I'm at it try the 3rd order xover as suggested since I have those parts. I'll post when I get it done, and take some pictures of the xover.
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I added the extra cap to make it 3rd order and tried changing R1061 to 10 ohm. (It was too much.) I immediately replaced the 18 ohm after listening to An ELO concert I have. On two songs one of the back up singers claps a few times, and it is very subtle but audible. I was listening to it in 2 way and noticed I couldn't hear her clap at ALL. I replayed both songs with the center playing, and it was very clear. I replaced the 18 ohm and listened again in 2 way, fixed.
My center has a Vifa XT, which I think I liked better, considering replacing the tweeter!
My center has a Vifa XT, which I think I liked better, considering replacing the tweeter!
Replacing the tweeter is a large undertaking imo, unless of course you can find another design with it. You might as well go at redesigning the crossover for the HDS completely to a more suitable xover frequency and see if that helps.
If you've completely exhausted changing the level of the tweeter with this design then I would advise trying to roll off the top end of the tweeter a little.
Whenever I am trying to balance the treble in a design there are two things I play with, the tweeter level itself and how the top octave is balanced, either making it rise/droop/be flat etc. Usually I end up tilting it down a touch, or at least tilting down a rising response is usually necessary.
How necessary depends a lot on how lively your room is. This is why DIY is so nice because it means you can tailor the top end of the speakers you build to suit your room.
If sibilance is driving you crazy then this tends not to be specifically level related, you haven't mentioned this so I am assuming it is fine.
If you've completely exhausted changing the level of the tweeter with this design then I would advise trying to roll off the top end of the tweeter a little.
Whenever I am trying to balance the treble in a design there are two things I play with, the tweeter level itself and how the top octave is balanced, either making it rise/droop/be flat etc. Usually I end up tilting it down a touch, or at least tilting down a rising response is usually necessary.
How necessary depends a lot on how lively your room is. This is why DIY is so nice because it means you can tailor the top end of the speakers you build to suit your room.
If sibilance is driving you crazy then this tends not to be specifically level related, you haven't mentioned this so I am assuming it is fine.
That is a good observation. There is something about these tweeters I can't quite put my finger on. Not sure what it is, except, I'll raise the volume, and once they start to bother me, lower the volume and they just continue to sound horrible after lowering the volume. My ACI's used SS D2905/9000 They seemed to have a perfect blend of articulation without the fatigue.
Troels designs on his website are all VERY similar. If you study them like I have, making adjustments between drivers isn't that big a stretch. But my understanding is very elementary. But I know how to read. I would think all you'd have to do is match frequency responses and any LCR circuits with the correct drivers! Am I wrong?
The xover for the Jensen 1071 is very similar to the Peerless Nomex. Jensen-1071 As are many other designs to each other!
I don't understand everything about xovers but I think I know enough!
I am not above correction either...I want to learn if I am wrong!
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Clausen, try cutting out a felt ring and place it over the faceplate with a hole in the middle for the dome. Start with 0.5" thick felt and add another layer if needed. I think you'll be surprised by what you hear especially at high volume.
I still think this tweeter has wild dispersion in the presence region which can cause problems with some rooms and some ears. I think it's a good candidate for a waveguide of some sort.
I still think this tweeter has wild dispersion in the presence region which can cause problems with some rooms and some ears. I think it's a good candidate for a waveguide of some sort.
I don't think anyone here is getting near what is wrong with this speaker! 😀
PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
I can see it. 😎
Now come on. Why does it sound horrible? How you gonna fix it?
PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
I can see it. 😎
Now come on. Why does it sound horrible? How you gonna fix it?
