And I agree with measures don't tell the whole story BUT....subjectively speaking only, my experience with the HDS inclines me to agree with 5th Element to look elsewhere for the fatigue. The HDS has been one of the finest domes I've ever heard with an excellent balance of resolution and power handling.
IMO most of a tweeters character, off axis notwithstanding, is purely from linear distotion. The HDS isn't exactly te flattest of tweeters out there, it has peaks and dips all over the place and even small ones can influence how we perceive a tweeter to sound. This is why I said if it isn't a tonal balance issue before. Troels design does show the speaker as being pretty flat but who knows what a spacially averaged in room response would show.
EQ isn't the typical approach towards speaker design and if you're using a passive xover it is somewhat harder to implement. With a DSP things get a lot easier and it's just a way of getting the sounnd you're after. This doesn't have to be anything severe, just a dB or two of lift here, or a dB of two less there, maybe you'll need a combination of mild notches to get things sounding how you want. The last tweeters I tried in a pair of my loudspeakers didn't measure particularly well (compared to others) and initially sounded rather bad. I certainly could not live with them even though they measured pretty flat. Instead of giving up, and going back to the previous tweeters, I persevered and started applying subtle amounts of EQ until I had an odd looking EQ curve and now things sound great. Previously they were too forwarad, had real issues with sibilance and had a rough character. Now all of that is gone.
EQ isn't the typical approach towards speaker design and if you're using a passive xover it is somewhat harder to implement. With a DSP things get a lot easier and it's just a way of getting the sounnd you're after. This doesn't have to be anything severe, just a dB or two of lift here, or a dB of two less there, maybe you'll need a combination of mild notches to get things sounding how you want. The last tweeters I tried in a pair of my loudspeakers didn't measure particularly well (compared to others) and initially sounded rather bad. I certainly could not live with them even though they measured pretty flat. Instead of giving up, and going back to the previous tweeters, I persevered and started applying subtle amounts of EQ until I had an odd looking EQ curve and now things sound great. Previously they were too forwarad, had real issues with sibilance and had a rough character. Now all of that is gone.
its all in the filter, i can hear the ringing at 900hz when i crossed it at 1.9khz, but when i modified my filter to 2.7khz, it transform the speakers into a very transparent, easy to listen to and more importantly giving all the details needed elegantly.
I'm using this with PHL 1220 in a 3way.
Friends always surprised how close it is to my other speakers with RAAL tweeters, where honestly if i knew the HDS can sound that way, i wouldn't spend $950 for the RAALs although from time to time I'm reminded by the RAALs how beautiful the cymbals is 😛
Jantzen Super-Z is my favourite, not so for the Silver. another good candidate is Obbligato where it never harsh but still giving a lot of space and details.
If possible, measure the speakers on axis and off axis (0 15 30 45deg) and tell us more how you placed your speakers.
Harshness could be eliminated by speakers positioning, i did this to many friends of mine, where moving the speakers to it's intended listening axis and preference of the listener is one of the most important things to do to get a great musical experience (this is including the state of the art Wilson Alexia with their brilliant multi axis adjustments)
Concerning the HDS tweeter, I found this thread (and project) interresting, measures of the HDS at post #29
The BaSSlines (Lamda TD12H, B&C6md38, Peerless HDS) - AVS Forum
The BaSSlines (Lamda TD12H, B&C6md38, Peerless HDS) - AVS Forum
I think everyone is a bit short on ideas here, much as getting tweeter level right is fairly critical. 😀
Here's something you can try. Let's convert it to third order tweeter using those 6.8uF caps you have.
That gives 6dB better power handling and rolloff down low on the tweeter. Should sound better at high volume. 😎
Here's something you can try. Let's convert it to third order tweeter using those 6.8uF caps you have.
That gives 6dB better power handling and rolloff down low on the tweeter. Should sound better at high volume. 😎
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Joe Rasmussen is crossing this tweeter second order on the Elsinore, sure he does not think it sound bad at high volume 🙂
PS : I've tried this also this kind of mod when i was finding the HDS tweeter sounding harsh ... Changing amp from Poppulse T150 (TA2022 chip) to Roomplayer (IcePower 50ASX2 module) solved the problem.
Five degree toe in only the speakers also improved the sound.
IMHO the rising response of this tweeter is something to take care :
Elsinore Tweeter Test
PS : I've tried this also this kind of mod when i was finding the HDS tweeter sounding harsh ... Changing amp from Poppulse T150 (TA2022 chip) to Roomplayer (IcePower 50ASX2 module) solved the problem.
Five degree toe in only the speakers also improved the sound.
IMHO the rising response of this tweeter is something to take care :
Elsinore Tweeter Test
One thing I didn't mention, (I mentioned it in another thread), Troels told me to raise the inductor to 1.1 MH on the midrange, which I did. Everything I have done was an improvement.
BTW, My amps have distortion LED's which are really nice, because when they light up, you know to lower the volume.
I'll try a few of the suggestions here and keep everyone posted. I don't have any measurement equipment, but I am thinking seriously about acquiring some!
I was thinking today, how hard would it be to change the tweeter and adjust the xover? As that is something I am considering. However, when it is all said and done, I'm going to tweak these, but I'm ready to build something else and put these in the bedroom. I like them so much I don't want to get rid of them, and since I don't listen to music much in the bedroom, that's where they are heading eventually.
BTW, My amps have distortion LED's which are really nice, because when they light up, you know to lower the volume.
I'll try a few of the suggestions here and keep everyone posted. I don't have any measurement equipment, but I am thinking seriously about acquiring some!
I was thinking today, how hard would it be to change the tweeter and adjust the xover? As that is something I am considering. However, when it is all said and done, I'm going to tweak these, but I'm ready to build something else and put these in the bedroom. I like them so much I don't want to get rid of them, and since I don't listen to music much in the bedroom, that's where they are heading eventually.
Jeez, Clausen, you've changed the midwoofer coil from 0.68mH too! 😕
That will make a big hole in the midrange, and change the notch and phase alignment too. It leaves the tweeter too loud, but getting that right leaves you with an excessive "BBC" downward tilt IMO.
PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
Frankly, this speaker is starting to look a mess. 😱
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Well Steve you are right in that we are just guessing as to where the problem might be coming from.
As a recommendation Clausen, one thing you could try is repositioning the loudspeakers and sitting somewhat near field. I do not know how far away you are currently sitting, but if you could make an equilateral triangle out of you and the loudspeakers with around 1.5 meters between everything that might prove useful.
If you sit closer to the loudspeakers and toe them in then to reach the same subjective SPL you wont actually need to turn things up as much. You could listen like that and see if it has the same effect on your ears after a length of time. If the problem goes away then it could help indicate that you're simply driving the system too hard.
As a recommendation Clausen, one thing you could try is repositioning the loudspeakers and sitting somewhat near field. I do not know how far away you are currently sitting, but if you could make an equilateral triangle out of you and the loudspeakers with around 1.5 meters between everything that might prove useful.
If you sit closer to the loudspeakers and toe them in then to reach the same subjective SPL you wont actually need to turn things up as much. You could listen like that and see if it has the same effect on your ears after a length of time. If the problem goes away then it could help indicate that you're simply driving the system too hard.
I'll change it back to .68 mh when the other parts come. I did what Troels suggested.
Also I recently rearranged my listening room. Nothing has changed in the sound. Currently they are further away and closer to the wall than previous. They are about 15 feet form the listening position and about 12 ft apart. Previously they were about 10 feet away 8 feet apart. They were toed in in both locations. Every time I changed the resistor value it was an improvement. I don't think it will take much to get these dialed in, frankly I am almost there, but I was thinking "it can just be a matter of attenuation." But I don't know what I'm doing. 😉
I started to think it's just these tweeters!!!
Also I recently rearranged my listening room. Nothing has changed in the sound. Currently they are further away and closer to the wall than previous. They are about 15 feet form the listening position and about 12 ft apart. Previously they were about 10 feet away 8 feet apart. They were toed in in both locations. Every time I changed the resistor value it was an improvement. I don't think it will take much to get these dialed in, frankly I am almost there, but I was thinking "it can just be a matter of attenuation." But I don't know what I'm doing. 😉
I started to think it's just these tweeters!!!
You have a rather large room, the speakers might be struggling to perform at reasonable SPL level for you.
Elsinore is a 2.5way, i would suggest build a 3way with min of 10" woofers or dual 8" instead so the midrange won't be strained.
cheers
Henry
Yes Exactly what I was thinking...in addition...my listening room is an open floor plan that includes the entrance and my Kitchen plus dining room, with 18 ft vaulted ceilings. Total area is probably 25 ft by 50 ft... or some thing like that. However....
and this is a big HOWEVER...and when I explain this please keep in mind I don't know what the heck I am doing(and don't be mean...although I think this opens me up to a joke or two)....I'll try to make this brief...
I've never liked the way Ported enclosures sound...so when I built this speaker it was always my belief you could tone down the "fake" tube sound ports make that I HATE by dampening them. So I lined the ports with
https://wholesale.parts-express.com...nd-damping-material-with-psa-18-x-24--260-530
Which I used on the cabinet. I only used a small 3/4 by 3/4 strip that I rolled inside the port. I basically filled it...like a 3/4 burrito that filled the port opening. Like a snail...
So last night I decided to pulled that stuff out of the ports. But It was late and my wife and baby were asleep so I couldn't tell any difference.
This part is especially worth comment! I have 2 12 inch powered subs with 1000 watts going to them.
So...when i got home tonight I read the comments here, and then had a chance to listen at a decent level. I switched my B&K to left and right only which excludes the subs. I immediately wondered why my subs were working and checked them. They WERE NOT WORKING! But sounded like they were. So I listened some more...and verified at least twice more...my subs were not working, but they sounded like they were.
So I also realized these speakers sound completely different now also!!! I need further listening, and I'll replace the .68 coil...and go from there....
Now I may sound like an idiot...but the difference is I can learn!!! I do think my listening room requires a good 3 way, but the whole speaker sounds different now. Way different!!! Wow...
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OK...I'm laughing at myself...so feel free to poke some fun. I re-read the above and was laughing.
Well if you've got subs the easiest way to lessen the load on the mains is with a high pass to the main loudspeakers. Plugging the ports completely and going sealed will help with the drivers flapping about with very low stuff they can't reproduce and apply a 12dB/octave filter. If you apply a 12dB active high pass to the mains you will then end up with a 24dB/octave filter on the low end that will really lighten the load to them. Then just have the subs work a little higher to fill in where the mains roll off.
It amazes me the number of people who have 6.5" two ways and subs but don't do this. This is the only way to have them set up. Use a PLLXO for the mains if you have to. This will only work mind you if the subs work from line level and have a separate feed from your pre amp.
It amazes me the number of people who have 6.5" two ways and subs but don't do this. This is the only way to have them set up. Use a PLLXO for the mains if you have to. This will only work mind you if the subs work from line level and have a separate feed from your pre amp.
No. No. No. Don't be embarrassed. It's always good to try things. I'm an inveterate tinkerer. 😀
A good speaker takes MONTHS or YEARS to get right. It has to have that magic! 😎
No one actually knows if closed box or reflex is better. Maybe something in-between like damped reflex or aperiodic is optimum. 😕
But actually, with two basses in a single 2.5 enclosure, there might be some complex interaction going on.
See, I don't like 6" bass at all. It's the very devil to get sounding right. Never mind doing a 2.5.
I've been working at this 8" plus Morel soft dome lately:
It's taken me ages, but it's finally sounding good. 🙂
We'll figure it out. I'm thinking a lower crossover is needed here.
SEAS CURV
Or maybe a waveguide tweeter will help:
H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT
There's no reason why you can't do an MMT either. Where the basses do the same thing. 😎
A good speaker takes MONTHS or YEARS to get right. It has to have that magic! 😎
No one actually knows if closed box or reflex is better. Maybe something in-between like damped reflex or aperiodic is optimum. 😕
But actually, with two basses in a single 2.5 enclosure, there might be some complex interaction going on.
See, I don't like 6" bass at all. It's the very devil to get sounding right. Never mind doing a 2.5.
I've been working at this 8" plus Morel soft dome lately:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It's taken me ages, but it's finally sounding good. 🙂
We'll figure it out. I'm thinking a lower crossover is needed here.
SEAS CURV
Or maybe a waveguide tweeter will help:
H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT
There's no reason why you can't do an MMT either. Where the basses do the same thing. 😎
So you didn't build the speakers within specs 😀.
bad bass from vented if the designer got no clue to tune the box, a good vented box with reasonable group delay and a good woofers (can play at 105db SPL with 50-60% of its xmax) will give you a very very good bass.
i have no idea what your crossover is, but follow what Troels did on his page or any further recommendation by him 🙂
I believe that the Peerless tweeter that Kevin and I used for this speaker (The Exodus Audio "Kepler") is the same that is being discussed.
SoundStage! "D-I-Why & How" -- Exodus Audio Kepler Loudspeakers (4/2008)
The speaker shown here and on the top of the first Soundstage page is actually my personal speaker.
Best Regards,
TerryO
SoundStage! "D-I-Why & How" -- Exodus Audio Kepler Loudspeakers (4/2008)
The speaker shown here and on the top of the first Soundstage page is actually my personal speaker.
Best Regards,
TerryO
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