good luck on the boards ...
we've got our fingers and toes crossed for you!
sometime soon, i'll be sending out the first boards i;ve done with DIPTrace. i've used other tools before, but this one had a fast learning curve for me. Dale's comments about learning time are right on point ...
mlloyd1
we've got our fingers and toes crossed for you!
sometime soon, i'll be sending out the first boards i;ve done with DIPTrace. i've used other tools before, but this one had a fast learning curve for me. Dale's comments about learning time are right on point ...
mlloyd1
I've just switched to DipTrace as well. It's a little frustrating when first figuring out how to edit components but the 3D modelling is a very handy tool.
I don't mind at all.
I don't think the basic structure of that file has changed much over the last 20 years. Back then, the information in that file (except for identifying the Gerber file contents) was more important than it is today. Back then, a live person generally DID look at your fab files and occasionally caught errors or inconsistencies that had slipped through your review process. The "README" file spelled out the ground rules for what you wanted him to manufacture.
Now, on-line ordering pages let you quickly select basic parameters like board thickness silk screen color, etc. The web pages prevent you from selecting incompatible options, and make sure you specify everything that needs to be specified. Automated DRC programs catch errors very effectively - sometimes TOO effectively; flagging errors that are actually deliberate, though somewhat non-standard, design features. The README file is, at best, just a repeat of what you entered on the PWB Ordering page.
I have always included the fab notes from the formal drawing, into my README file. The file I posted has notes for a very generic, basic, PWB. You must alter them appropriately if you need other characteristics - lead free, different colors, flammability ratings, etc. (I doubt that anybody in the low-cost, quick-turn, prototype business even bothers reading fab notes. You're gonna get what you ordered from the web page, and your choices are typically a subset of what is available.)
You can find other examples of complete PWB ordering packages that I produced in the thread "Discrete Opamp Open Design":
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...screte-opamp-open-design-291.html#post3485352
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...screte-opamp-open-design-271.html#post3374536
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...screte-opamp-open-design-289.html#post3470900
I have given serious thought to working with metric units when dealing with PWB vendors outside the U.S. However, the world of thru-hole circuitry is still dominated by the 0.1" grid, and I can think in a 0.1" grid without even thinking about it. Retraining myself to work in metric dimensions would force me to think - and thinking makes my brain hurt.
I addressed part of this question at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/anal...-led-ldr-based-attenuator-48.html#post4156151 Every vendor has minimum and maximum sizes for holes.
In the "good old days" (formerly known as "these trying times") some PWB fabricators actually charged on a per-hole basis, plus a charge for the number of hole sizes you specify. I never worked with a vendor like that. However, the vendors I've used imposed additional charges if your design averaged more than so-many holes per square inch. I don't think any of my designs ever exceeded the vendor's threshold, so I wouldn't worry about that.
I'm not familiar with the details of current production processes. In days gone by, the holes were drilled, then plated. The plating process necessarily reduced the hole size and the PWB manufacturer needed to have a well-controlled process to ensure the finished hole sizes met spec. I don't think there were any machining operations to "finish" the holes after plating.
Dale
True, a lot of the stuff in the specs file is defined in the ordering process (board, thickness, copper weight, etc).
I have simplified it somewhat, removing the references to specifications that a) probably don't matter so much nowadays and b) I don't fully understand anyway!
The fab lab has got back to me confirming the design I sent them (with all the different hole sizes, etc) is fine and they're happy to make it at their initial quoted cost, so will give them a try.
I agree with your comment on unit of distance - it hurts my brain to think imperial 🙂 But I can still understand the easy it brings when working with ICs built on a 0.1" pitch... But I certainly don't want my board to arrive just over 2.5x the required size 😀
I have simplified it somewhat, removing the references to specifications that a) probably don't matter so much nowadays and b) I don't fully understand anyway!
The fab lab has got back to me confirming the design I sent them (with all the different hole sizes, etc) is fine and they're happy to make it at their initial quoted cost, so will give them a try.
I agree with your comment on unit of distance - it hurts my brain to think imperial 🙂 But I can still understand the easy it brings when working with ICs built on a 0.1" pitch... But I certainly don't want my board to arrive just over 2.5x the required size 😀
There's a Gerber file command statement that specifies inches or millimeters. I don't know if there's a default value in the absence of an explicit declaration but I'll bet even the most cursory review of your files (by either a machine or a human) will generate a squawk if the inch/mm declaration is missing.
Along the same lines, there are Gerber commands to specify whether the graphic primitives are written as positive images (i.e., adding copper where you want it to be) or negative images (starting out completely covered in copper, and removing it from where you DON'T want it to be). Also commands to specify whether dimensions are given as absolute distances (X and Y coordinates from an origin), or as incremental distances from the last object placed. Again, the file review process should note any uncertainty and generate a request for more information.
Dale
p.s. - The Gerber files are actually written in plain ASCII text. Put one in your favorite text editor and look at what's there. The structure is pretty straightforward. The commands themselves are rather cryptic - something like the mnemonics used by assembly-language programmers. In theory, a Gerber file is human-readable and human-editable although in practice the sheer volume of data (dozens or hundreds of commands to describe even a single, simple, object) makes it unlikely that normal people would ever read or edit a Gerber file directly.
Thanks Dale.
I've got my head around the gerber file format 🙂
I wasn't aware that negative images were used - but as you say, it's pretty obvious which way round it goes when you look at them (rendered).
Here's where I'm at with mine:
They saw an earlier revision of that and were happy with it.
I've got my head around the gerber file format 🙂
I wasn't aware that negative images were used - but as you say, it's pretty obvious which way round it goes when you look at them (rendered).
Here's where I'm at with mine:
They saw an earlier revision of that and were happy with it.
Hmm, slight annoyance now: on their front page, I was quoted a total of $43 shipped: $23 for PCB, $-5 discount, $25 shipping.
Now I've submitted my order, it's $53: $25 for PCB, $25 shipping, $3 paypal fees. So the price of the board has gone up, the discount has been removed, and Paypal has been added.
Not the end of the world, but still a bit misleading...
I did ask by email to my contact, and they've said it's already 25% off 2014 prices and further discounts are not available. Maybe that's the case, but it's a bit cheeky to still be advertising "2014 prices".
Now I've submitted my order, it's $53: $25 for PCB, $25 shipping, $3 paypal fees. So the price of the board has gone up, the discount has been removed, and Paypal has been added.
Not the end of the world, but still a bit misleading...
I did ask by email to my contact, and they've said it's already 25% off 2014 prices and further discounts are not available. Maybe that's the case, but it's a bit cheeky to still be advertising "2014 prices".
They default to lead free HASL which raises the cost. They are advertising a New Years 25% off special as well.
Hmm well I hope it's OK. I specifically asked lead free and blue solder mask finish.
Now my order is in fabrication process and on the status, it says HASL with lead and green solder mask...
I've emailed my contact, will wait for response...
Now my order is in fabrication process and on the status, it says HASL with lead and green solder mask...
I've emailed my contact, will wait for response...
Argh, my contact is now saying if I want HASL lead free, it's an extra $5.
This is getting really annoying: I knew lead free cost was extra, and that was what I requested in the online tool which quoted me the $43 total ($23 for board). If I wanted HASL with lead, it would have been cheaper ($38 total, 18 for board, 25 for shipping).
But when using their quote tool, I specifically asked for HASL lead free, my discussion with them has always been lead-free, and I agreed to pay the extra on the "manual quote" to get it sorted. Now, it turns out they want another $5 so $58 total for a set of 10 boards when their online tool quoted me $43...
I have a feeling it's been messed up because it was my contact who processed the order from the gerber files I sent her so maybe on her screen, she didn't tick the lead-free (just like she didn't tick the blue solder mask I had requested)...
This is getting really annoying: I knew lead free cost was extra, and that was what I requested in the online tool which quoted me the $43 total ($23 for board). If I wanted HASL with lead, it would have been cheaper ($38 total, 18 for board, 25 for shipping).
But when using their quote tool, I specifically asked for HASL lead free, my discussion with them has always been lead-free, and I agreed to pay the extra on the "manual quote" to get it sorted. Now, it turns out they want another $5 so $58 total for a set of 10 boards when their online tool quoted me $43...
I have a feeling it's been messed up because it was my contact who processed the order from the gerber files I sent her so maybe on her screen, she didn't tick the lead-free (just like she didn't tick the blue solder mask I had requested)...
OK, they're saying that custom quotation is always better in case there is anything special about the requirements, which is fine by me.
I'm now hoping there's a misunderstanding in communication as it sounds like they now want another $12 for panelling the board. I'm waiting for my contact to explain because my initial request which triggered the manual quotation, I had asked whether boards could be split into two and they said "yes, no problem, and here's the quote".
Now it looks like it's:
$25 for PCB
$5 extra for lead free
$12 extra for panelling / splitting into two
$25 delivery
$3 paypal
$72 total...
Which would tend to be confirmed when they say: "but your PCB file show that need to panel, which will need to add extra $12 panel fee. But if you separate these two boards to make 2 orders, then they will cost $36 for lead free ( in total $65 with shipping and paypal fee). So this is the most low-cost way for you to pay extra $5 for lead free."
If I don't understand her next response, I will ask my Chinese friend if she can help out with comms...
Biggest annoyance is I told them everything I wanted from day 1, they said "yes, it costs X", which I have paid (so theoretically, it's a "contract"). Now I've pointed out the mistakes in my order held on their system, it's now costing Y, and Y is going up in every email exchange!
I'm now hoping there's a misunderstanding in communication as it sounds like they now want another $12 for panelling the board. I'm waiting for my contact to explain because my initial request which triggered the manual quotation, I had asked whether boards could be split into two and they said "yes, no problem, and here's the quote".
Now it looks like it's:
$25 for PCB
$5 extra for lead free
$12 extra for panelling / splitting into two
$25 delivery
$3 paypal
$72 total...
Which would tend to be confirmed when they say: "but your PCB file show that need to panel, which will need to add extra $12 panel fee. But if you separate these two boards to make 2 orders, then they will cost $36 for lead free ( in total $65 with shipping and paypal fee). So this is the most low-cost way for you to pay extra $5 for lead free."
If I don't understand her next response, I will ask my Chinese friend if she can help out with comms...
Biggest annoyance is I told them everything I wanted from day 1, they said "yes, it costs X", which I have paid (so theoretically, it's a "contract"). Now I've pointed out the mistakes in my order held on their system, it's now costing Y, and Y is going up in every email exchange!
I always prefer to do any on line ordering without actually talking to anyone or adding any extra instructions. It sounds like a good idea adding an extra text file with instructions, ect but that actually adds another chance for error with the language barrier and translation. The way their ordering process is set up, you upload a file, they check to see if they can interpret the file, you double check the order, then pay. If the order changes after that it's at their expense to correct it. It's also paid for through PayPal so you have the option to dispute the payment if they've messed up the order. The only issue I've had so far is they've messed up and gold plated a couple batches of boards for me at no cost. I didn't complain about that one.
Yeah,
Their agents are nice and willing to help, but I feel it just complicated things further.
I think the biggest issue was that it was the agent who put the order on their system from the gerber files I emailed her. That's where my preferences were lost. The fact they were in a text file also seem to have been ignored 😉
The reason why I went through was that I wanted the board split into two. The other option would have been just to place two seperate orders, that way, nothing "complicated" would have required the involvement of someone where language then becomes an issue.
If the truth is to be told, I was trying to be cheeky and save some money by having just one order instead of two, only because the two boards put together still came in under the 100x100mm size... But that's at the risk of exposing language issues...
Still, she has just come back to me confirming that I will get the boards split, and they will be lead free after I paid the extra $5... Fortunately, the $12 panel fee doesn't seem to apply now...
In future, I might just go for multiple orders, if just to keep it relatively headache-free. The few dollars saved aren't worth the hassle or my time in trying to ensure they've understood the requirements fully!
Their agents are nice and willing to help, but I feel it just complicated things further.
I think the biggest issue was that it was the agent who put the order on their system from the gerber files I emailed her. That's where my preferences were lost. The fact they were in a text file also seem to have been ignored 😉
The reason why I went through was that I wanted the board split into two. The other option would have been just to place two seperate orders, that way, nothing "complicated" would have required the involvement of someone where language then becomes an issue.
If the truth is to be told, I was trying to be cheeky and save some money by having just one order instead of two, only because the two boards put together still came in under the 100x100mm size... But that's at the risk of exposing language issues...
Still, she has just come back to me confirming that I will get the boards split, and they will be lead free after I paid the extra $5... Fortunately, the $12 panel fee doesn't seem to apply now...
In future, I might just go for multiple orders, if just to keep it relatively headache-free. The few dollars saved aren't worth the hassle or my time in trying to ensure they've understood the requirements fully!
I've actually placed one order that I sheared the boards into 20 small pieces after I received them. As long as the files are merged into one there is no issue. They won't cut them apart without extra cost.
I deal online every day. I've always found it more reliable to just communicate with machines. They don't get tired, have sick kids on their mind, get bored or mad at a customer, ect. so there's much less chance of error. These people must be dealing with a staggering number of files in a day to be able to make any money on them and there is a language barrier so things are bound to go wrong.
I deal online every day. I've always found it more reliable to just communicate with machines. They don't get tired, have sick kids on their mind, get bored or mad at a customer, ect. so there's much less chance of error. These people must be dealing with a staggering number of files in a day to be able to make any money on them and there is a language barrier so things are bound to go wrong.
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Out of interest, how did you shear the boards? If it's straight forward / uses minimal tools, I might just do that in future providing it's reliable and I don't make a mess 😀
I have a sheet metal shear that I cut them with. If you order boards with thin FRP you can cut them with a good set of scissors.
It looks like they might not be the most organized bunch there. I received my latest order yesterday, then someone else's order arrived today addressed to me. I would have liked it better if it was at least boards for something cool but it's just some crappy serial connector boards.
When you've received board from them via DHL, have you had any extra hassle with customs clearance / duty / tax ?
I've emailed PCBway my tax and EORI number just in case...
I've emailed PCBway my tax and EORI number just in case...
I let DHL take care of all the taxes and duties. The broker I'm normally stuck dealing with is a crook. DHL is a quarter the cost.
There was never any mention of fees for customs, duties, taxes, etc on my recent order shipped to a U.S. residential address. There are several entries in the tracking log (see atch) that indicate customs officials were notified of the package's movement, but as far as I can tell the package itself was never actually opened for formal inspection.
This may be related to the relatively small value of the goods. The packing list included a copy of the customs declaration. It was straightforward and accurate - five PWB's valued at US$7.00 each, plus $4.00 money transfer fee. This is different from some other small orders I've placed with overseas vendors, where the items were declared as "commercial samples" valued at "$0.00" when in fact I had paid for the goods.
I received a (automated) phone call the day before delivery, advising that a parcel would be delivered on the following day, and a signature would be required. Following instructions given in the call, I left a note on the door identifying myself, the freight carrier (DHL), the package tracking number, signature, and date. The note disappeared and the package was left on the porch sometime before 1:30 PM on Jan 14.
Dale
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