Celef, expanding on those thoughts quickly get me to:
Passive crossover people buy cables costing 15000$ and run them through glorified flower pots filled with crystals, brag about the expensive stuff to their confused friends while watering the crystals with the most expensive champagne to "smooth them out".
Active crossover people measured their systems and found that there was no discernible difference between cables costing 50$ and 15000$, thought the flower pots with crystals looked silly, and feeling smug after buying the cheap-but-excellent cables decided to waste a few more bucks on a DSP setup, and after further measuring and adjusting their system, reached an understanding of how and why things really work.
Edit:
Brett, He didn't see my mum there, did he? She talks so much about all that stuff, mormons and jehovas witness people used to avoid our house by a few blocks. It was fun to see!
Passive crossover people buy cables costing 15000$ and run them through glorified flower pots filled with crystals, brag about the expensive stuff to their confused friends while watering the crystals with the most expensive champagne to "smooth them out".
Active crossover people measured their systems and found that there was no discernible difference between cables costing 50$ and 15000$, thought the flower pots with crystals looked silly, and feeling smug after buying the cheap-but-excellent cables decided to waste a few more bucks on a DSP setup, and after further measuring and adjusting their system, reached an understanding of how and why things really work.
Edit:
Brett, He didn't see my mum there, did he? She talks so much about all that stuff, mormons and jehovas witness people used to avoid our house by a few blocks. It was fun to see!
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Hahahah!
You are the definition of eloquent.
I think you need to take some flowery sentences course though, maybe your unicorn can help?
Maybe. Is her name Whinny?
I agree with the rest of your post. Before I pulled my system apart recently to make nice looking enclosures (for a change) it hadn't been touched for years. Reading many forums, most conventional 2ch passive audiophiles make far, far more changes to their systems than I do to mine. Once mine is set up, it's left alone and it takes a major change to get the mic and laptop out again. Celef really has no idea what he's talking about, based upon that comment.
Some thoughts on analogue vs DSP vs passive...
- If you have a digital source, DSP is clearly the way to do it. You can put together a system that's digital end-to-end, which means no conversions between digital and analogue. Having played around and tried that, it's easily the best sound I've heard from a digital source, and I wasn't using extra DSP-based EQ to get there.
- If you have an analogue source, converting to and from digital (for DSP) is clearly going to lose some fidelity. People spend a lot of money on DACs, and still find better out there. For an all-analogue system, I'd stick with line-level active processing.
- Passive crossovers are a compromise for convenience. If you want a simple system (ie, integrated amp and a couple of sources), passive crossovers are the solution. It is possible to make them sound good, even at fairly high power levels. It does take a fair amount of work, though. Calculated values should be avoided, as they're never calculated for your driver(s). XSim is a great start, but even then, you still need to go back and test to make sure you're attenuating the tweeter enough to keep it out of distortion.
Chris
- If you have a digital source, DSP is clearly the way to do it. You can put together a system that's digital end-to-end, which means no conversions between digital and analogue. Having played around and tried that, it's easily the best sound I've heard from a digital source, and I wasn't using extra DSP-based EQ to get there.
- If you have an analogue source, converting to and from digital (for DSP) is clearly going to lose some fidelity. People spend a lot of money on DACs, and still find better out there. For an all-analogue system, I'd stick with line-level active processing.
- Passive crossovers are a compromise for convenience. If you want a simple system (ie, integrated amp and a couple of sources), passive crossovers are the solution. It is possible to make them sound good, even at fairly high power levels. It does take a fair amount of work, though. Calculated values should be avoided, as they're never calculated for your driver(s). XSim is a great start, but even then, you still need to go back and test to make sure you're attenuating the tweeter enough to keep it out of distortion.
Chris
I agree. But a mere 7 minutes later...
As it's "a fact" you'll be able to substantiate this comment objectively, right? To prove you're not just making an ad hominem claim against a group of enthusiasts.Dudes with active crossovers and dsp are only in it for the tech and totally deaf to music, it is a fact
I agree, i have a ship load of proac’s at home and each of every one of them have a sound quality that no active and dsp loudspeaker can match
Active and dsp loudspeakers are for tech freaks, and there is nothing wrong if you are in to that, but passive speakers are for music lovers!
"no big deal" with regards to horns refered to the fact that time alignment can be done by physical arrangement in a usual horn system easily while when stuck with a baffle it's a hassle and delay lines might be necessary.
Dudes with active crossovers and dsp are only in it for the tech and totally deaf to music, it is a fact
LOL.
At this point, I'm certain you're trolling.
I'd expect something DSP-based like the Dutch & Dutch 8C to change your views completely.
Chris
Yeah, he's just trying to toss a few jerry cans of gasoline on the bonfire.
Passive xo's have the potential to be excellent, but no matter how much money you throw at a passive xo, the values will change when you start feeding the lossy filters with wattage.
This is the biggest advantage of active filters, no passive components to heat up other than the voice coils of the speakers. No wasted power, can use smaller amps with cheaper parts to get the same spl and with a more predictable result.
Passive xo's have the potential to be excellent, but no matter how much money you throw at a passive xo, the values will change when you start feeding the lossy filters with wattage.
This is the biggest advantage of active filters, no passive components to heat up other than the voice coils of the speakers. No wasted power, can use smaller amps with cheaper parts to get the same spl and with a more predictable result.
Credit for calling the thread as you see it. I could post my gran's recipe for carrot cake and get a positive response.
Please do so! I can try and find a good recipe for spice cake if you'd like.
Hard to beat the tried and tested classics! I think the classic lemon sponge is quite nice too, no need for the fancy stuff coated in coloured sugar paste.
I made lemon fromage like this one a while ago, but for some reason I had to eat it alone, not sweet enough apparently...
Lemon fromage ! - Sweets 2 Share
If I'm to throw gasoline on the bonfire, I like to do it a bit more around the bush, so to speak. Don't understand this direct approach at all.
Hard to beat the tried and tested classics! I think the classic lemon sponge is quite nice too, no need for the fancy stuff coated in coloured sugar paste.
I made lemon fromage like this one a while ago, but for some reason I had to eat it alone, not sweet enough apparently...
Lemon fromage ! - Sweets 2 Share
If I'm to throw gasoline on the bonfire, I like to do it a bit more around the bush, so to speak. Don't understand this direct approach at all.
Oh no, no, I am not trolling, I just trying to say I have a different mind on this, you guys like speakers with lots of extra gear to it, and I do not. And honestly, I give a **** what you like, I see you guys as early adopters, jumping on new tech as soon as they come out, I bet your refrigerator and vacuum cleaner sends you daily sms and you love it too! So please spare me with your ******** that your dsps and active loudspeakers sounds better then mine, they do not! Period!
It’s all in how you hear it
I’ve had and heard many systems over the years. Each one has it sweet sound and it’s not so sweet sound. All that matters is if your the one spending the money and it makes you happy then more power to you
I do agree with the simple crossover makes for a great sound and using all the dsp‘ and the electronic crossovers with multiple amps has its place as well. I have and use all of these and they all sound great. To me,
I do believe that at some point , you will not be able to hear the difference between a $50 cable or the $5000 cable. At some point
It’s just hog wash and it stops making any difference to the sound. Most of these people try to justify these over priced cables with with some type a measurement device to show that there’s a huge difference between them ,which in fact there’s not,
the only way you can tell that there’s a difference is by using some high-end measurement device and with your hearing you cannot hear any difference
I’ve had and heard many systems over the years. Each one has it sweet sound and it’s not so sweet sound. All that matters is if your the one spending the money and it makes you happy then more power to you
I do agree with the simple crossover makes for a great sound and using all the dsp‘ and the electronic crossovers with multiple amps has its place as well. I have and use all of these and they all sound great. To me,
I do believe that at some point , you will not be able to hear the difference between a $50 cable or the $5000 cable. At some point
It’s just hog wash and it stops making any difference to the sound. Most of these people try to justify these over priced cables with with some type a measurement device to show that there’s a huge difference between them ,which in fact there’s not,
the only way you can tell that there’s a difference is by using some high-end measurement device and with your hearing you cannot hear any difference
Have you heard the speakers I mentioned in my previous post? Didn't think so.
They do things that no speaker with a passive crossover ever could, and they consistently impress some of the top studio sound engineers in the world.
Chris
There is one thing that you (and many others on this forum) don't get. Not everybody is looking for the same in audio gear and there is not one method to come to good sound. For some this is important, and for others something else.
I don't like digital in general, i prefer analog and with analog passive crossovers it's most easy for me to get where i want. But i know that is not flat and perfect in phase. But the sound of a full analog chain is more important than that for me. Especially as a lot of flat sounding speakers of high quality (like hi end studio monitors) does not sound good to my ears. They are very analytical but clinical and lifeless. Then i prefer the very coloured sound of old Altec and Tannoy speakers. I enjoy music way more with those. And that is what counts at the end.
If you like DSP and flat, phase coherent speakers, and don't miss what i miss in them, then you need dsp the way you do it. But hearing is very subjective, and your truth is not that of everybody. So people must stop on this forum (especially in this section) to attack everybody who like passive crossovers and don't like dsp's. You are just chasing people away and removing a part of the options that are discussed here, wich makes this forum less interesting for a big part of the diy crowd. And i'm not the only one who think this way.
Do your dsp thing, discuss it here like you wish (the more the better), but let people also discuss passive or active analog crossovers without starting a flamewar like you did now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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