Hi Jkeny,
Can't wait to hear your impression on the SAXR59. Remember to try different gauge wires and keep the line short to your speakers if you can. The stock unit has very low power reserve; it needs all the help it can get. Many people report it's lean in the mids, but after my power cord mod, it's no longer lean, just not as full as the solid states, but I think we can get close with benefit of clarity and timing. Remember to try it in different modes as well.
Please give an update on the Rubycon if you try them. I don't know how much better they are compare to the stock Panasonic ZE (PS caps) and XE (water) caps. I'm pretty sure the ZE and XE caps are better than the FM which is much better than the FC.
Good mods list, jkeny.
- I will definitely try the Oscons. Thanks again ChuckT for the suggestion.
- I added (2) .47 polypropylene caps on the new AC cord within the chassis to help on some filtering. Rewiring should be a huge plus; you can cut out about half the lengths and improve the conduits! Binding posts are worthy of an upgrade too, will let you know how all this will turn out in about a week.
- The unit is very quiet. I haven't really noticed any crosstalk, but I only have 3 channels. How about adding a thin sheet of shielding between the inductors? Probably worth a try.
Can't wait to hear your impression on the SAXR59. Remember to try different gauge wires and keep the line short to your speakers if you can. The stock unit has very low power reserve; it needs all the help it can get. Many people report it's lean in the mids, but after my power cord mod, it's no longer lean, just not as full as the solid states, but I think we can get close with benefit of clarity and timing. Remember to try it in different modes as well.
Please give an update on the Rubycon if you try them. I don't know how much better they are compare to the stock Panasonic ZE (PS caps) and XE (water) caps. I'm pretty sure the ZE and XE caps are better than the FM which is much better than the FC.
Good mods list, jkeny.
- I will definitely try the Oscons. Thanks again ChuckT for the suggestion.
- I added (2) .47 polypropylene caps on the new AC cord within the chassis to help on some filtering. Rewiring should be a huge plus; you can cut out about half the lengths and improve the conduits! Binding posts are worthy of an upgrade too, will let you know how all this will turn out in about a week.
- The unit is very quiet. I haven't really noticed any crosstalk, but I only have 3 channels. How about adding a thin sheet of shielding between the inductors? Probably worth a try.
eld said:
Hi, can't find any info on the Panasonic ZE or XE caps, but if they are better than FM grade, DON'T CHANGE IT.
I can't get the XR55 yet, maybe later.
But I notice the digital in uses a tranny, this is good, but not sure of the quality of the tranny.
Also, use a good 75ohm digital cable and change the input to BNC should improve things.
Just when I had decided to order the XR59, I got an email from a friend who is going over to the US shortly & is willing to bring one back!
So where is the best deal on-line in the US for a XR57? I will order it in-advance for delivery to his friends place. No harm to have this running for a week or two in case there are any problems with the unit!
I have found $250 in JR.com - is this the best deal or do you guys know better? All help appreciated
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4112933&JRSource=nsa&nsa=1
This is too good an offer to refuse - just about one third the price I would pay over here!
So where is the best deal on-line in the US for a XR57? I will order it in-advance for delivery to his friends place. No harm to have this running for a week or two in case there are any problems with the unit!
I have found $250 in JR.com - is this the best deal or do you guys know better? All help appreciated
http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4112933&JRSource=nsa&nsa=1
This is too good an offer to refuse - just about one third the price I would pay over here!
One other area for possible improvement in these amps would be to bypass the relays through which the signal has to pass - this is usually considered a sonic no-no but I guess it depends on the quality of the relay contacts
So if anybody would like to try an experiment to see how much sonic effect these relays have it would be a simple enough matter to temporarily bypass the whole of the speaker pcb and re-route the signal directly to the speaker terminals not forgetting the caps from signal to ground from each signal cable (1000p in XR55 & 820P in XR57).
If you do this for just one speaker you could compare with/without relay sound!
I know the relays are what give the XR amps dual/biamping functionality but if you are using it in a fixed configuration then this would not be too much of a problem!
So if anybody would like to try an experiment to see how much sonic effect these relays have it would be a simple enough matter to temporarily bypass the whole of the speaker pcb and re-route the signal directly to the speaker terminals not forgetting the caps from signal to ground from each signal cable (1000p in XR55 & 820P in XR57).
If you do this for just one speaker you could compare with/without relay sound!
I know the relays are what give the XR amps dual/biamping functionality but if you are using it in a fixed configuration then this would not be too much of a problem!
I know Kenwood have dropped A/V receivers about 2 years ago & there are some issues with the software that connects this receiver to a PC server but ........
I've just uploaded the Kenwood VRS-N8100 Service Manual to the same place as the Panasonic manuals (http://www.4shared.com/dir/5422093/4db6362a/Panasonic_Service_Manuals.html)
because I can't extract the relevant output schematic as the PDF is copyright protected.
Even though it uses the same TI chips as the Panasonic amps the output stage is different, essentially missing out the amplifiers(?) in the Panny between the Dual H-bridge driver & the mosfets. I'm not sure what this amplifier is - the panny service manual doesn't identify the parts, just gives part numbers for re-order purposes.
Anyway, has anybody compared the VRS-N8100 sound to the XR57? Also is there a setting that devotes all the left speakers to the left channel & right speakers to right channel - called multi-stereo on my Sony DAV-DZ500F HTIB?
Edit: BTW, I have the Service manual for the Sony DAV500F digital amp which I will also load to the same area if anybody is interested - I will be trying to mod this shortly & would like some help
If the sonics were on a par with the panny & it had this multi-stereo setting, I would go for this amp with it's music server link for $400
Any help with this decision?
I've just uploaded the Kenwood VRS-N8100 Service Manual to the same place as the Panasonic manuals (http://www.4shared.com/dir/5422093/4db6362a/Panasonic_Service_Manuals.html)
because I can't extract the relevant output schematic as the PDF is copyright protected.
Even though it uses the same TI chips as the Panasonic amps the output stage is different, essentially missing out the amplifiers(?) in the Panny between the Dual H-bridge driver & the mosfets. I'm not sure what this amplifier is - the panny service manual doesn't identify the parts, just gives part numbers for re-order purposes.
Anyway, has anybody compared the VRS-N8100 sound to the XR57? Also is there a setting that devotes all the left speakers to the left channel & right speakers to right channel - called multi-stereo on my Sony DAV-DZ500F HTIB?
Edit: BTW, I have the Service manual for the Sony DAV500F digital amp which I will also load to the same area if anybody is interested - I will be trying to mod this shortly & would like some help
If the sonics were on a par with the panny & it had this multi-stereo setting, I would go for this amp with it's music server link for $400
Any help with this decision?
Sorry, new link for manuals: http://www.4shared.com/dir/5422093/4db6362a/Digital_Amps_Service_Manuals.html
the internal speaker wirings are very thin so it s obvious that replacing them straight from the output inductors will produce a slightly better speaker control at high level volume
about the PS caps near the output mosfets , it' s not a matter of low ESR , it's a matter of sonic signature ( there are several parameters , like the armature vibrations at high level or inductance ) , Rubycon ZL , Blackgate and Elna For Audio are renowned
about the output MKT caps ( the ones in the LC output filters ) , it's certainly worthwhile to replace them with good MKP , but they are difficult to find because you have to take the same size to avoid EMI interferences !
about the PS caps near the output mosfets , it' s not a matter of low ESR , it's a matter of sonic signature ( there are several parameters , like the armature vibrations at high level or inductance ) , Rubycon ZL , Blackgate and Elna For Audio are renowned
about the output MKT caps ( the ones in the LC output filters ) , it's certainly worthwhile to replace them with good MKP , but they are difficult to find because you have to take the same size to avoid EMI interferences !
Hey guys,
I just uploaded the SA-XR59 service manual to my hosting site (address above). I had a look at the schematics - output stage looks the same as the XR57 so I presume it's using the same TI chips as previous models.
Just trying to tease out any substantial diffs between this model and previous apart from extra hdmi & self calibration.
Has anybody heard one of these?
I just uploaded the SA-XR59 service manual to my hosting site (address above). I had a look at the schematics - output stage looks the same as the XR57 so I presume it's using the same TI chips as previous models.
Just trying to tease out any substantial diffs between this model and previous apart from extra hdmi & self calibration.
Has anybody heard one of these?
My XR57 is ordered but wont arrive until end of Feb when friend is coming back from the US, so just keeping myself occupied and I noticed on page 78 of the XR57 service manual that there is an additional 50V/10uF electro bypass cap on the output of the amplifier (Mosfets?) which feed the Front Right & Left speakers. So there is 1000uF + 100uF + 1000pF to ground on the signal line
This is missing off all other speaker schema (surround, centre). I wonder if it's there to help the mids/highs on the front speakers.
Would it benefit sonics to include it on the other speaker lines also?
Edit: The parts list in the service manual lists these caps C6120 & C6170 as 16V/10pF ? But then it also lists the 50V/1000uF as 50V/1000pF (C6103, C6153)? Can anyone confirm what the correct values for these caps are?
This is missing off all other speaker schema (surround, centre). I wonder if it's there to help the mids/highs on the front speakers.
Would it benefit sonics to include it on the other speaker lines also?
Edit: The parts list in the service manual lists these caps C6120 & C6170 as 16V/10pF ? But then it also lists the 50V/1000uF as 50V/1000pF (C6103, C6153)? Can anyone confirm what the correct values for these caps are?
Hi guys,
Was wondering if there is any advantage of changing the shunt caps in the speaker output line? I was thinking of changing these to Panasonic FM or Nichion caps when I rewired.
Jkeny,
I have try (2) 15,000uF TS-HA Panasonic cap in parallel with the two front water caps. I don't know how long it takes for these caps to burn in, but the initial result is not good. After two hours of listening with these inline, I eventual gave up and pulled them. I did notice that the treble got sharper and soundstage got wider. Negative is that the crystal clear highs and smooth upper mids were gone. Maybe I will try some Rubycon ZL or Jensen 4 poles next or just add more caps of the same type (ZE or ZX caps) inline. Any opinion between the Rubycon, Nichion Muse, and Jensen 4 poles?
Since this is my first modification attempt, if I try the Rubycon or Jensen, should I pull the Panasonic PS caps out? Or can I just add the new caps inline?
I'm planning to skip all the switches in the power board along with the speaker board and direct wire all speakers output to the binding posts with shunted caps to chassis. Also might be worthwhile to hardwire the two fronts with the two back surrounds for dual amping.
Was wondering if there is any advantage of changing the shunt caps in the speaker output line? I was thinking of changing these to Panasonic FM or Nichion caps when I rewired.
Jkeny,
I have try (2) 15,000uF TS-HA Panasonic cap in parallel with the two front water caps. I don't know how long it takes for these caps to burn in, but the initial result is not good. After two hours of listening with these inline, I eventual gave up and pulled them. I did notice that the treble got sharper and soundstage got wider. Negative is that the crystal clear highs and smooth upper mids were gone. Maybe I will try some Rubycon ZL or Jensen 4 poles next or just add more caps of the same type (ZE or ZX caps) inline. Any opinion between the Rubycon, Nichion Muse, and Jensen 4 poles?
Since this is my first modification attempt, if I try the Rubycon or Jensen, should I pull the Panasonic PS caps out? Or can I just add the new caps inline?
I'm planning to skip all the switches in the power board along with the speaker board and direct wire all speakers output to the binding posts with shunted caps to chassis. Also might be worthwhile to hardwire the two fronts with the two back surrounds for dual amping.
eld said:
I think Rha61 said these were MKT type & worth replacing with good MKP but not electros like you mention!
I had a feeling that these water caps were OK in themselves, maybe just could improve with some bypassing using smaller good quality cap like I said above?
I thought the Jensen 4-pole cap was used on the power board to replace or add to C717 & C718 on Page 90 - this is where the 50V PS is generated that is used in the output stage H-bridge section. This is why I questioned rha61 about replacing the 6*1000uf caps with one 12,000uF cap - I just didn't understand it!
What switches on the power board do you mean? I'm interested in what sonic improvement you hear with this mod though - keep us posted! My idea was to do it for one channel only so that A/B comparisons could be made
originally posted by rha61
rha61, are these the ones on the main board right after the coil or did you mean the ones on the speaker board? Thanks!
originally posted by jkeny
I believe C717 and C718 are in parallel to all water caps, so if you add it right after the C717 and C718 and replace all the water caps, then basically all the channels share the same power caps(i.e. the Elna and ZE caps). If you add it after the split (& parallel to the water caps) on the main board, then it will only affect that one channel.
There are six switches that are on the power board to control dual amping and bi-amping. I think you can ignore those and go directly to the binding posts from the main board; you will lose the flexibility of all the different options, but don't have to surfer through the longer runs and tracing. The speaker board is inefficient. All it does is hold the shunt caps, so I think we will gain a lot here by removing it from the signal path totally.
rha61, are these the ones on the main board right after the coil or did you mean the ones on the speaker board? Thanks!
originally posted by jkeny
I believe C717 and C718 are in parallel to all water caps, so if you add it right after the C717 and C718 and replace all the water caps, then basically all the channels share the same power caps(i.e. the Elna and ZE caps). If you add it after the split (& parallel to the water caps) on the main board, then it will only affect that one channel.
There are six switches that are on the power board to control dual amping and bi-amping. I think you can ignore those and go directly to the binding posts from the main board; you will lose the flexibility of all the different options, but don't have to surfer through the longer runs and tracing. The speaker board is inefficient. All it does is hold the shunt caps, so I think we will gain a lot here by removing it from the signal path totally.
I think rha61 is talking about the ones on the speaker board at least this would be the normal place for EMI suppression caps.
I think C717 & 718 being beefed up will allow more current delivery to the output stages - not sure which is most important here C717 or C718?
But local PS bypassing close to the output Mosfets is probably more important sonically so good caps are important here. As rha said:
Now bypassing these caps with a good quality (PP) lower value cap may or may not have a beneficial effect on mids/highs
Ah didn't trace back to the these switches, but they're on the main board according to schematic - coming from the microprocessor. Anyway bypassing them would probably be good.
One other suggestion given was to add Oscon caps to the PS bypass caps for digital ICs - I would suggest 6 ch PWM IC to start with
This is all great stuff - can't wait to get my amp & join in
I think C717 & 718 being beefed up will allow more current delivery to the output stages - not sure which is most important here C717 or C718?
But local PS bypassing close to the output Mosfets is probably more important sonically so good caps are important here. As rha said:
Now bypassing these caps with a good quality (PP) lower value cap may or may not have a beneficial effect on mids/highs
Ah didn't trace back to the these switches, but they're on the main board according to schematic - coming from the microprocessor. Anyway bypassing them would probably be good.
One other suggestion given was to add Oscon caps to the PS bypass caps for digital ICs - I would suggest 6 ch PWM IC to start with
This is all great stuff - can't wait to get my amp & join in
Jkeny,
The switches on the Power Board in the SAXR55 got moved to the Speaker Board in the SAXR57 and SAXR59 it looks like. Also, those filter cap values got changed from 1000uF 50V on the XR55 to 820uF 50V on the XR57.
Any suggestion on a good MKP that will fit in the chassis and have these values? I don't know what type the stock ones are, but they are tiny, about 1mm X .25 mm?
The switches on the Power Board in the SAXR55 got moved to the Speaker Board in the SAXR57 and SAXR59 it looks like. Also, those filter cap values got changed from 1000uF 50V on the XR55 to 820uF 50V on the XR57.
Any suggestion on a good MKP that will fit in the chassis and have these values? I don't know what type the stock ones are, but they are tiny, about 1mm X .25 mm?
So is the schematic wrong? (I wouldn't be surprised) - it states 1000uF
How many mistakes are there on the schematic? Is it useful at all - can it be relied upon when replacing smd parts where the value isn't on the part?
I would try it without the EMI supression caps first & see how it sounds & what effect/if any it has on nearby radios. I don't know if emi transmission from speaker cables will affect the sound? If you must put these caps in then why not solder them internally to the speaker post itself between hot & ground - I've seen this done on the t-amp & it gives you a better choice of cap sizes!
This is why I thought doing one channel as a test is less work than doing/undoing all 6 channels at once and gives a direct A/B test set-up!
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