Just having a look at the Yamaha SW218V box... frequency response is lower than on the JBL SRX728S (which I realized can purchase here in Australia, I found a retailer).
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/speakers/S112VE.pdf
Scroll down to about half way and you'll see it's specs, then lower down they show some frequency response/impedance and horizontal + vertical directivity charts/graphs.
Yamaha SW218V = 2400watts peak @ 4ohms
JBL SRX728S = 6400watts peak @ 4ohms
Would be a lot easier finding an amplifier to power the Yamaha, not to mention cheaper, even if I do have to buy 3, right?
This box (Yamaha SW218V) retails for around $550 USD, so if I get 3 of these boxes, they should perform better than the single JBL box, right? Not to mention I'll have 1800 continuous/3800 program/7200 instead of 1600 continuous/3200 program/6400 peak with the JBL. The frequency response is lower, it has the same sensitivity rating as the JBL, and I'll have more power.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier powering the Yamaha than the JBL? Also, I think there will be many advantages with using 6 18" drivers, instead of only 2. Main advantage = more house shakage
Please help me decide between these 2, as I am having a hard time with my limited knowledge. Thanks in advance again 🙂
http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/speakers/S112VE.pdf
Scroll down to about half way and you'll see it's specs, then lower down they show some frequency response/impedance and horizontal + vertical directivity charts/graphs.
Yamaha SW218V = 2400watts peak @ 4ohms
JBL SRX728S = 6400watts peak @ 4ohms
Would be a lot easier finding an amplifier to power the Yamaha, not to mention cheaper, even if I do have to buy 3, right?
This box (Yamaha SW218V) retails for around $550 USD, so if I get 3 of these boxes, they should perform better than the single JBL box, right? Not to mention I'll have 1800 continuous/3800 program/7200 instead of 1600 continuous/3200 program/6400 peak with the JBL. The frequency response is lower, it has the same sensitivity rating as the JBL, and I'll have more power.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier powering the Yamaha than the JBL? Also, I think there will be many advantages with using 6 18" drivers, instead of only 2. Main advantage = more house shakage
Please help me decide between these 2, as I am having a hard time with my limited knowledge. Thanks in advance again 🙂
Having a look around and it looks to me like I'll be paying around $1500 to power each of those Yamaha SW218V boxes, which ends up being $4500 for 3... + 3 of those boxes will cost a few hundred more than the JBL box, what a mission.
Aren't we going a little bit to fast here, it's for your livingroom right?
My view: I'm using a single 18" PA woofer (13 ft^3 TL) in my livingroom (6000 ft^3), I don't even bother to connect the second as it would be to much. With a humble 700 Wrms amp my neighbours at 150 ft distance have complaints about the bass.
Now at parties I agree that you never seem to have enough power and/or subwoofers and they both do get a lot more power in that case. Six 18" subwoofers would be fine for parties up to say 400-500 people, with complementary tops.
Why don't you start with two 18" subwoofers powered with a good quality amp (important) ranging from 1 to 2 times the rms-powerrating? If you feel you need more, you can always expand later on. Put them in a corner, stand back and enjoy!
Wkr Johan
My view: I'm using a single 18" PA woofer (13 ft^3 TL) in my livingroom (6000 ft^3), I don't even bother to connect the second as it would be to much. With a humble 700 Wrms amp my neighbours at 150 ft distance have complaints about the bass.
Now at parties I agree that you never seem to have enough power and/or subwoofers and they both do get a lot more power in that case. Six 18" subwoofers would be fine for parties up to say 400-500 people, with complementary tops.
Why don't you start with two 18" subwoofers powered with a good quality amp (important) ranging from 1 to 2 times the rms-powerrating? If you feel you need more, you can always expand later on. Put them in a corner, stand back and enjoy!
Wkr Johan
Maybe I missed it, but what size room are you planning on filling with thumping bass? After a certain point, you are just wasting money, since you'll quickly reach the threshold of pain with certain systems.
I've had success filling a large dance hall, about 60x70 feet filled with about 400 people, with very loud, and very satisfying bass for techno and psytrance, with a pair of dual-18" subs (99db/w@1m), powered with around 1000W each, and actively crossed at about 80hz. I don't think we would have wanted it any louder, seriously!
It worked out to an instantaneous max of a hair over 135db at one meter, and an easy sustained max of closer to 130db at one meter. Corner load those bad boys, and they did their job admirably.
I mean, there are potentially reasons to just get as much as possible right away, but there are also good reasons to get what you need now, and then see which direction you want to go later. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, in other words. If you overbuy now, and decide you want them to be different (different drivers, different amps, different enclosures, whatever), you'll be stuck with a lot that you don't need, and a lot of money down the drain. If you start simpler, you can always add capacity.
As to damaging speakers by underpowering them, that can happen, but its more of a threat to tweeters because of the HF distortion components that happen during clipping. Low frequency drivers are not very suceptible to that sort of damage. Just set your levels when setting things up, and put a piece of tape over the final gain knobs so some joker doesn't turn it up further and clip the amps (as is known to happen...). 😉
peace,
sam
I've had success filling a large dance hall, about 60x70 feet filled with about 400 people, with very loud, and very satisfying bass for techno and psytrance, with a pair of dual-18" subs (99db/w@1m), powered with around 1000W each, and actively crossed at about 80hz. I don't think we would have wanted it any louder, seriously!
It worked out to an instantaneous max of a hair over 135db at one meter, and an easy sustained max of closer to 130db at one meter. Corner load those bad boys, and they did their job admirably.
I mean, there are potentially reasons to just get as much as possible right away, but there are also good reasons to get what you need now, and then see which direction you want to go later. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, in other words. If you overbuy now, and decide you want them to be different (different drivers, different amps, different enclosures, whatever), you'll be stuck with a lot that you don't need, and a lot of money down the drain. If you start simpler, you can always add capacity.
As to damaging speakers by underpowering them, that can happen, but its more of a threat to tweeters because of the HF distortion components that happen during clipping. Low frequency drivers are not very suceptible to that sort of damage. Just set your levels when setting things up, and put a piece of tape over the final gain knobs so some joker doesn't turn it up further and clip the amps (as is known to happen...). 😉
peace,
sam
This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. You just need a single decent driver and a 500W plate amp. All this talk of 4.5KW of amps and six drivers is just plain silly...
I can assure that a single (corner) horn loaded 15" speaker driven with 300W is capable of transferring enough LF energy from the amplifier to the air in the 30Hz to 300Hz range to satisfy most people's loudness requirements in any room up to 20m^2. Obviously, the remaining frequency range must be also covered adequately. (I'm currently listening to such a setup and my room is barely 12m^2... It also plays decently outdoors if placed on the floor back to back to a wall to get 1/4 space air load).
p.s: This picture shows the corresponding midrange and tweeter http://eva.eslamejor.com/mid_hi0.jpg
p.s: This picture shows the corresponding midrange and tweeter http://eva.eslamejor.com/mid_hi0.jpg
Wait... Large bedroom? LOL. I don't care what sort of bass-head you think you are, but I thought we were talking about raves and stuff like that. 
I PROMISE that you do not want to listen to music over 120db. I don't care if you THINK you want music over 120db, because if you think that, you clearly haven't really experienced it.
To hit 120db in a large bedroom: Lets say your system is tuned for low efficiency, 85db/w at one meter. Lets conservatively say you'll get 6db of room gain (a low estimate, for sure). To exceed 120dB, you'd need 1000W, like a large PE plate amp.
That will rattle everything in the house, and cause pain in close proximity. Thats all a man can ask for.
peace,
sam
I PROMISE that you do not want to listen to music over 120db. I don't care if you THINK you want music over 120db, because if you think that, you clearly haven't really experienced it.
To hit 120db in a large bedroom: Lets say your system is tuned for low efficiency, 85db/w at one meter. Lets conservatively say you'll get 6db of room gain (a low estimate, for sure). To exceed 120dB, you'd need 1000W, like a large PE plate amp.
That will rattle everything in the house, and cause pain in close proximity. Thats all a man can ask for.
peace,
sam
I can also assure that listening to such a horn loaded system as the one I described at high volumes two or three meters away in a room causes listening fatigue to arise quite quickly (I mean up to 120dB in the high trebble and low midrange region from 300Hz to 1Khz, and up to 130dB below that). Even when properly equalized, it turns progressively unpleasant after no more than 30 minutes and hearing desensitization starts to be noticeable (reached that point, it's better to rest in silence for a dozen hours and avoid repeating such a test for a while).
OKay OKay 😡.. told ya'll I'm not an audio specialist...
Basically I want that type of power because I intend on hosting raves in my local dance hall once a month, it is pretty big and I WOULD be expecting at the very least 300-400 people [looking to make some cash with $10 entry... the area I live in is mainly dominated by teenagers] . That is why I am looking for THIS level of bass, though obviously it will be used mainly at home, I can't turn the level up anything more than 1/4 anyway as my neighbours and the whole street will ring the coppaz, sigh.
So basically when I will be using this system at home, it won't be turned loud at all, just at a decent hearing volume.
Basically I want that type of power because I intend on hosting raves in my local dance hall once a month, it is pretty big and I WOULD be expecting at the very least 300-400 people [looking to make some cash with $10 entry... the area I live in is mainly dominated by teenagers] . That is why I am looking for THIS level of bass, though obviously it will be used mainly at home, I can't turn the level up anything more than 1/4 anyway as my neighbours and the whole street will ring the coppaz, sigh.
So basically when I will be using this system at home, it won't be turned loud at all, just at a decent hearing volume.
Hosting raves isn't as good of a way to make money as it sounds like it is, trust me. 😉
Certainly fun, though. 😀
Certainly fun, though. 😀
Well it's $350 for a day... including electricity + kitchen use 🙂
Got bouncers (personal friends) sorted for if anything get out of hand... don't see why not, heaps of fun + some extra cash.
Got bouncers (personal friends) sorted for if anything get out of hand... don't see why not, heaps of fun + some extra cash.
Oh, I'm not trying to dissuade you, I did it for a few years, and had some great times. You've gotta be in it for the fun, though. The money isn't great, and you know what they say, 'crap flows uphill', when someone breaks the toilet, guess who's getting the call... When the cops show up, who do they want to talk to? Who's the first one in the door, and the last one out? The dude with the biggest subs, thats who. 😉
Anyway, have fun. For reference, we did a lot of 400-500 person events with two of these: http://eaw.com/products/SB528zR.html powered w/ 1000WPC Carvers. Very satisfying.
I think you've got some good info here to get started, just make sure you invite us to the party.
peace,
sam
Anyway, have fun. For reference, we did a lot of 400-500 person events with two of these: http://eaw.com/products/SB528zR.html powered w/ 1000WPC Carvers. Very satisfying.
I think you've got some good info here to get started, just make sure you invite us to the party.
peace,
sam
JohnnyJ said:
Heh.... Don't assume that will include all the electricity you'll need if you do end up building a multi kilowatt system. You could end up with a much bigger bill than you expect.
I used to attend some local events here where the organizers always had to set up a generator in the car park because there simply wasn't enough power available at the hall for their 20kW system.
Some smaller halls have actually banned these kind of event and large LAN parties (1 computer doesn't use much power, but get a few hundred of them together in a place that was never designed with such demands in mind) due to problems with overloading.
Quote:
Post #85
This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. You just need a single decent driver and a 500W plate amp. All this talk of 4.5KW of amps and six drivers is just plain silly...
Granted 4.5KW of amplifier power is riduculous for what he wants to do but then again the plate amplifier idea is totally riduculous also. No offense meant.
It seems that a few of us have had actual work experience in this field and others are self appointed experts. Maybe its time to look back again and define some logical system requirements here.
1.) Majority of system usage as home or club?
2.) Useful system frequency response based on type of usage.
3.) Amount of money to be spent.
As stated by some of us earlier I believe or should have been.
It is totally unnecessary in the realm of commercial usage to try to maintain a frequency response to 3db down at 20hz. Why?
Waste of power and equipment unless you have very deep pockets. Several JBL bass bins will surely provide very adequate bass response for both a club application or home usage. A single QSC CX1202 would provide ALL the power needed to power these to a ear irritating level.
Post #85
This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. You just need a single decent driver and a 500W plate amp. All this talk of 4.5KW of amps and six drivers is just plain silly...
Granted 4.5KW of amplifier power is riduculous for what he wants to do but then again the plate amplifier idea is totally riduculous also. No offense meant.
It seems that a few of us have had actual work experience in this field and others are self appointed experts. Maybe its time to look back again and define some logical system requirements here.
1.) Majority of system usage as home or club?
2.) Useful system frequency response based on type of usage.
3.) Amount of money to be spent.
As stated by some of us earlier I believe or should have been.
It is totally unnecessary in the realm of commercial usage to try to maintain a frequency response to 3db down at 20hz. Why?
Waste of power and equipment unless you have very deep pockets. Several JBL bass bins will surely provide very adequate bass response for both a club application or home usage. A single QSC CX1202 would provide ALL the power needed to power these to a ear irritating level.
Quote:
Anyway, have fun. For reference, we did a lot of 400-500 person events with two of these: http://eaw.com/products/SB528zR.html powered w/ 1000WPC Carvers. Very satisfying.
A good choice for a sub. Personally I haven't had very good luck with the Carvers in the past having lost a number of them in a large system. Carver did however stand behind them by sending replacements very quickly.
This subs response of 3db down at 27hz I believe is a good logical usage of equipment and money. No need to try to go any lower with the frequency response.
Enough equipment to fill both requirements both home or club.
Anyway, have fun. For reference, we did a lot of 400-500 person events with two of these: http://eaw.com/products/SB528zR.html powered w/ 1000WPC Carvers. Very satisfying.
A good choice for a sub. Personally I haven't had very good luck with the Carvers in the past having lost a number of them in a large system. Carver did however stand behind them by sending replacements very quickly.
This subs response of 3db down at 27hz I believe is a good logical usage of equipment and money. No need to try to go any lower with the frequency response.
Enough equipment to fill both requirements both home or club.
The power requirements issue is an important one! Most buildings that will allow parties also don't have great power systems.
I wouldn't plan on needing more than 3 2000W services to power your rig. You might get lucky and get 4 or 5, but don't count on it.
Use one for the mixer/decks/dj monitors, and then one for each stack. But a 2000W feed limits you to about 1500W of output power, and that is reaaaly pushing it (remember to turn the amps on one at a time, so the inrush doesn't trip the breakers!). In a portable pro system, efficient speakers are worth more than you'd think. People love to brag about their high powered amps, but if they can't run them in the venue because they don't have enough services, they don't do anyone any good. Our subs were 99db/w efficient. We could get them to the same level with 1000W that a 'hifi' type sub w/ 89db/w sensitivity would require 10,000W to hit. Thats a big difference, and is really at the heart of why PA drivers are a better choice than 'home' type hi-fi drivers.
Renting a big diesel whisperlite generator for the parking lot isn't actually a terrible idea, you can rent 15kw units for not very much, and they come on their own trailer so you can just tow them to the site.
peace,
sam
PS Glad you like the subs, burnedfingers. 🙂 I've always been fond of the EAW gear, I think its a great value, good sound at reasonable prices. I don't have the big rigs around anymore, but I still use a pair of EAW FR253 3-ways as my home speakers, w/ a Phase Linear 700II amp. A good match. (which actually powered a few smaller parties on their own).
I wouldn't plan on needing more than 3 2000W services to power your rig. You might get lucky and get 4 or 5, but don't count on it.
Use one for the mixer/decks/dj monitors, and then one for each stack. But a 2000W feed limits you to about 1500W of output power, and that is reaaaly pushing it (remember to turn the amps on one at a time, so the inrush doesn't trip the breakers!). In a portable pro system, efficient speakers are worth more than you'd think. People love to brag about their high powered amps, but if they can't run them in the venue because they don't have enough services, they don't do anyone any good. Our subs were 99db/w efficient. We could get them to the same level with 1000W that a 'hifi' type sub w/ 89db/w sensitivity would require 10,000W to hit. Thats a big difference, and is really at the heart of why PA drivers are a better choice than 'home' type hi-fi drivers.
Renting a big diesel whisperlite generator for the parking lot isn't actually a terrible idea, you can rent 15kw units for not very much, and they come on their own trailer so you can just tow them to the site.
peace,
sam
PS Glad you like the subs, burnedfingers. 🙂 I've always been fond of the EAW gear, I think its a great value, good sound at reasonable prices. I don't have the big rigs around anymore, but I still use a pair of EAW FR253 3-ways as my home speakers, w/ a Phase Linear 700II amp. A good match. (which actually powered a few smaller parties on their own).
It should be noted that placing several direct-radiating subwoofers together, due to mutual coupling, lowers the low frequency cut-off point of each one and causes each one to produce the same LF SPL with less cone excurstion, thus improving dramatically output capabilities in the lower octave. Placing the subs on the floor with a wall behind boosts these effects even more.
This means that four very-low-cost 15" or 18" drivers with high sensitivities and Xmax in the range of +-4mm, mounted in smaller-than-optimum bass reflex enclosures but tuned low to around 30Hz (despite the drivers having Fs around 40hz), placed on the floor with a wall just behind, and powered with something like 300W/driver (may be just a single amp), can produce *absolutely* outstanding output for the total setup price. Furthermore, these efficient light-cone low-excursion drivers tend to sound fine up to at least 500Hz (if the enclosures are clean enough) so they can also do the very critical mid-bass job (if stacked vertically to form a vertical array and get good horizontal dispersion).
That happens because all the simulation that you all do and all the published driver specs are only valid for a single driver resting on the floor (half space acoustic load). However, the rules of the game change progressively as more drivers and walls are put together (as long as the waveforms involved are somewhat larger than drive spacing). When four drivers are placed on the floor with a wall behind (1/4th space), each one is actually seeing a 1/16th space acoustical load. As this acoustical load is reduced below 1/2 space (made harder), we enter horn loading territory and things like driver resonant frequency and box volume start to turn more and more *irrelevant* because it's the air in front of the driver what imposes a harder load to the cone and what actually dominates frequency response.
Thus, one of those exotic overpriced drivers rated at thousands of watts and with an inch or more Xmax is JUNK in comparison with a good stack of simple low-cost drivers placed in undersized enclosures.
Concerning electrical power consumption, It's very hard to trip a 10A breaker in a 230V system with amplifiers summing 10KW (or even 20KW) in normal music signal use. Average power consumption is just much lower than peak. It's the lighting what requires a 20KW or even a few 200KW generators in big performances. Power consumption due to amplifiers is just ridiculous.
This means that four very-low-cost 15" or 18" drivers with high sensitivities and Xmax in the range of +-4mm, mounted in smaller-than-optimum bass reflex enclosures but tuned low to around 30Hz (despite the drivers having Fs around 40hz), placed on the floor with a wall just behind, and powered with something like 300W/driver (may be just a single amp), can produce *absolutely* outstanding output for the total setup price. Furthermore, these efficient light-cone low-excursion drivers tend to sound fine up to at least 500Hz (if the enclosures are clean enough) so they can also do the very critical mid-bass job (if stacked vertically to form a vertical array and get good horizontal dispersion).
That happens because all the simulation that you all do and all the published driver specs are only valid for a single driver resting on the floor (half space acoustic load). However, the rules of the game change progressively as more drivers and walls are put together (as long as the waveforms involved are somewhat larger than drive spacing). When four drivers are placed on the floor with a wall behind (1/4th space), each one is actually seeing a 1/16th space acoustical load. As this acoustical load is reduced below 1/2 space (made harder), we enter horn loading territory and things like driver resonant frequency and box volume start to turn more and more *irrelevant* because it's the air in front of the driver what imposes a harder load to the cone and what actually dominates frequency response.
Thus, one of those exotic overpriced drivers rated at thousands of watts and with an inch or more Xmax is JUNK in comparison with a good stack of simple low-cost drivers placed in undersized enclosures.
Concerning electrical power consumption, It's very hard to trip a 10A breaker in a 230V system with amplifiers summing 10KW (or even 20KW) in normal music signal use. Average power consumption is just much lower than peak. It's the lighting what requires a 20KW or even a few 200KW generators in big performances. Power consumption due to amplifiers is just ridiculous.
Good points, Eva, large numbers of drivers in a high output situation behave a lot differently than they do in a home theater. You can almost imagine them as scaled up tweeters. Tweeters produce output that is incredibly high compared to the resonances of their cabinet, so we don't spend much time worrying about their rear enclosure. Just make it small, make it dead, and worry about the load of the air in front of it, as to the suspension load behind it. At very high outputs, subwoofers behave similarly, the air in front is a harder load than the enclosure, and the resonances of the cabinet are overwhelmed by the interaction of the acoustic loading of the room. Thats why PA subs don't have as large of enclosures than you'd think they would, given their output.
Its true that you can go a distance above the rating of your circuit in overall summed power, I'd still be wary about adding too many amps to a circuit, particularly for dance music. For 'typical' music, the equal power frequency is about 300-350hz, for dance music its closer to 80hz. Your subs are carrying a LOT of weight, and if you have 1000w on your mid/highs, and 1000w on your subs, your subs will be using a lot more of that 1000w than the mid/highs are. You can momentarily exceed the power rating of the circuit, but if you keep it up, you can still thermally overload the breakers.
But its true, the lights are the major power suckers. Our parties were fairly minimal on lights, usually some color changing LED types (like color kinetics) for ambience, and some pulsing parcans or a gobos. We rarely used intelligent lights. A 1000W amplifier running at full tilt standing next to a pair of 750W 16x9 ellipsoidal lamps might give you the wrong impression about who is burning more electricity. 😉 People get surprised all the time by the space heater popping more breakers than the uberpower amplifiers.
All this talk makes me want to get back into pro audio... 🙁
peace,
sam
Its true that you can go a distance above the rating of your circuit in overall summed power, I'd still be wary about adding too many amps to a circuit, particularly for dance music. For 'typical' music, the equal power frequency is about 300-350hz, for dance music its closer to 80hz. Your subs are carrying a LOT of weight, and if you have 1000w on your mid/highs, and 1000w on your subs, your subs will be using a lot more of that 1000w than the mid/highs are. You can momentarily exceed the power rating of the circuit, but if you keep it up, you can still thermally overload the breakers.
But its true, the lights are the major power suckers. Our parties were fairly minimal on lights, usually some color changing LED types (like color kinetics) for ambience, and some pulsing parcans or a gobos. We rarely used intelligent lights. A 1000W amplifier running at full tilt standing next to a pair of 750W 16x9 ellipsoidal lamps might give you the wrong impression about who is burning more electricity. 😉 People get surprised all the time by the space heater popping more breakers than the uberpower amplifiers.
All this talk makes me want to get back into pro audio... 🙁
peace,
sam
Does this also swamp the ports 180 degrees shift below tuning? And how many speakers are you talking here?
Wkr Johan
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