Another fight about nothing useful under 40 Hz in music?
Old and new songs have content there.
Will you argue with Tchaikovsky about the 1812 Overture ?
Or argue with Pink Floyd about the Speak to me song ?
Or argue with DJ Tiesto about the Battleship Grey song ?
Now get your FFT tool and analyze, you'll find things under 40 Hz that adds amazing realism and soul to the songs.
Put a steep order high pass filter at 40 Hz now, those songs are now dead, IMO.
Now, we have not even talked about music with organs, those with 8, 16 and 32 Hz pipes...
Old and new songs have content there.
Will you argue with Tchaikovsky about the 1812 Overture ?
Or argue with Pink Floyd about the Speak to me song ?
Or argue with DJ Tiesto about the Battleship Grey song ?
Now get your FFT tool and analyze, you'll find things under 40 Hz that adds amazing realism and soul to the songs.
Put a steep order high pass filter at 40 Hz now, those songs are now dead, IMO.
Now, we have not even talked about music with organs, those with 8, 16 and 32 Hz pipes...
1812 i have heard about but never heard
Organ music is a given that it's below 40Hz right? I mean some of those tubes are 30 40 feet tall.
You make a good point about having a sharp cross over below 40Hz, i think this would make all music dead and lack scale and depth, maybe you guys dont really like deep bass?
I heard a track by a DJ Tiesto or Picottey? (the lizard) i remember watching the cone move so far in and out and slowly and there was not much to hear but it was a bassyass tune with lots of energy in the lowest end of bass.
Organ music is a given that it's below 40Hz right? I mean some of those tubes are 30 40 feet tall.
You make a good point about having a sharp cross over below 40Hz, i think this would make all music dead and lack scale and depth, maybe you guys dont really like deep bass?
I heard a track by a DJ Tiesto or Picottey? (the lizard) i remember watching the cone move so far in and out and slowly and there was not much to hear but it was a bassyass tune with lots of energy in the lowest end of bass.
This is the waveform of the heartbeat sound on Pink Floyd's "Speak To Me" song from "Dark Side Of The Moon" album, I have captured it with my oscilloscope:
The frequency content is quite easy to find out, as there are little high armonics and the fundamental appears very clear in order to measure its period with oscilloscope cursors. The sound has two parts: the "attack" appears clearly in the left half of the image, and and the "tail" is shown the right half.
The "attack" sound starts well above 120Hz and ends with the last oscillation being exactly 30Hz. The frequency is swept from above 120Hz down to 30Hz, spending most of the time in the 50Hz to 80Hz range, where the maximum amplitudes are employed. In fact, the last two 35Hz and 30Hz oscillations may be considered marginal content.
The "tail" sound starts at 40Hz, has its emphasis while it is swept down to 35Hz, and fades away as it continues to sweep down to 30Hz. The 30Hz content may be also considered marginal, as the 40Hz stuff dominates.
The absolutely lowest frequency present in that waveform is 30Hz, and it will be still happily played by any system having its -3dB point in 40Hz, as long as amplitude requirements are not too high (and they aren't, as 70Hz content is three times stronger, thus involving 10 times more amplifier power and almost the same cone displacement in a closed box).
You both should avoid talking about frequencies because you neither are trained to identify them by ear nor have the required equipment to analyze waveforms and measure the exact frequency content. Thus, you are always likely to be wrong when you say that something is 20Hz...
Probably you have never heard or felt 20hz, while I have done a lot of experimentation in that field, as in the beginning I was *very* curious about how these things were actually heard and felt.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The frequency content is quite easy to find out, as there are little high armonics and the fundamental appears very clear in order to measure its period with oscilloscope cursors. The sound has two parts: the "attack" appears clearly in the left half of the image, and and the "tail" is shown the right half.
The "attack" sound starts well above 120Hz and ends with the last oscillation being exactly 30Hz. The frequency is swept from above 120Hz down to 30Hz, spending most of the time in the 50Hz to 80Hz range, where the maximum amplitudes are employed. In fact, the last two 35Hz and 30Hz oscillations may be considered marginal content.
The "tail" sound starts at 40Hz, has its emphasis while it is swept down to 35Hz, and fades away as it continues to sweep down to 30Hz. The 30Hz content may be also considered marginal, as the 40Hz stuff dominates.
The absolutely lowest frequency present in that waveform is 30Hz, and it will be still happily played by any system having its -3dB point in 40Hz, as long as amplitude requirements are not too high (and they aren't, as 70Hz content is three times stronger, thus involving 10 times more amplifier power and almost the same cone displacement in a closed box).
You both should avoid talking about frequencies because you neither are trained to identify them by ear nor have the required equipment to analyze waveforms and measure the exact frequency content. Thus, you are always likely to be wrong when you say that something is 20Hz...
Probably you have never heard or felt 20hz, while I have done a lot of experimentation in that field, as in the beginning I was *very* curious about how these things were actually heard and felt.
The lowest exhaust noise frequency that you can get from a 4-stroke 4-cylinder car engine is in the range of 40Hz at 1200 r.p.m. (do the math if you want). Double that value for 8-cylinder engines.
I sound like you should do some research by yourselves in order to gather some experience, because you are obviously mistaking 40Hz or higher tones as lower frequencies.
I sound like you should do some research by yourselves in order to gather some experience, because you are obviously mistaking 40Hz or higher tones as lower frequencies.
I think we all should. The subject seems to moving to the point where people should switch sides just to get the discussion going.
Many people do mistake 40 Hz and up for VLF bass. Vision-blurring-eye-wobbling(-air-around-you seems-to-attack-you)-bass can be created with a big system using a 40 Hz, 48 dB/octave lowcut/highpass (aka brick wall).
Just use a large radiating area and it will stun you anyway.
Eva, you probably didn't heard every VLF song out there? So even if it is just a small percentage of songs, if you're into that, it could still be good for more than half of your daily listening You would be missing out. And than there's HT...
My artifical VLF experience is limited to few (not so positive) attempts (hearing rumble mostly) but I wouldn't stop before getting 120 dB @ 20 Hz or maybe at 0.1 Hz, just for the science of it.
Still how does thunder and the rest do?
Wkr Johan
Many people do mistake 40 Hz and up for VLF bass. Vision-blurring-eye-wobbling(-air-around-you seems-to-attack-you)-bass can be created with a big system using a 40 Hz, 48 dB/octave lowcut/highpass (aka brick wall).
Just use a large radiating area and it will stun you anyway.
Eva, you probably didn't heard every VLF song out there? So even if it is just a small percentage of songs, if you're into that, it could still be good for more than half of your daily listening
You would be missing out. And than there's HT...My artifical VLF experience is limited to few (not so positive) attempts (hearing rumble mostly) but I wouldn't stop before getting 120 dB @ 20 Hz or maybe at 0.1 Hz, just for the science of it.
Still how does thunder and the rest do?
Wkr Johan
Oh how well I remember the 1812 and the damage it did to a number of well meaning amplifiers. I ended up repairing a bunch of SAE 2400's and Gas (Ampzilla) amplifiers.
The 1812 is one of the few pieces that have any low content and I believe it goes down to 18hZ. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Oh the few uninformed here. The well meaning uneducated that think that in todays world their music will be plum loaded with a **** pot load of low frequency material. And crazier yet because they honestly believe they are going to reproduce it at mind staggering levels.
First of all someone needs to show you what a signal generator is and how it works. Secondly you need to learn that the material
you preceve as being 20hz isn't. Lastly you need to get educated
in the world of sound reinforcement.
Unfortunately I live in the world of very large commercial systems everyday so I have very little patience with the attitudes and ideals of a few of you. I have my fingers on the pulse of 50-75K watts in my systems. With SPL levels over 120DB at the farthest away seats.
I really suggest listening to EVA ( a voice of reason here) because of the reality and fact being presented.
This thread really reminds me of the normal car stereo buffs that have themselves convenced that a 100hz bass note is actually 20hz.
The 1812 is one of the few pieces that have any low content and I believe it goes down to 18hZ. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Oh the few uninformed here. The well meaning uneducated that think that in todays world their music will be plum loaded with a **** pot load of low frequency material. And crazier yet because they honestly believe they are going to reproduce it at mind staggering levels.
First of all someone needs to show you what a signal generator is and how it works. Secondly you need to learn that the material
you preceve as being 20hz isn't. Lastly you need to get educated
in the world of sound reinforcement.
Unfortunately I live in the world of very large commercial systems everyday so I have very little patience with the attitudes and ideals of a few of you. I have my fingers on the pulse of 50-75K watts in my systems. With SPL levels over 120DB at the farthest away seats.
I really suggest listening to EVA ( a voice of reason here) because of the reality and fact being presented.
This thread really reminds me of the normal car stereo buffs that have themselves convenced that a 100hz bass note is actually 20hz.
It goes below 5 Hz actually.
I am fully aware that you definitely have to make a tradeoff between SPL and cutoff frequency for sound reinforcement. Well, you will have to make it in every system actually - but in a P.A. system you will definitely choose the efficiency path for obvious reasons.
But that should not shy us away from building home systems where the choice is taken towards larger bandwidths.
Regards
Charles
Quote:
But that should not shy us away from building home systems where the choice is taken towards larger bandwidths.
Please explain to me what this is going to accomplish?
First of all I seriously doubt that you will have the room or possibly the knowledge to construct an enclosure to take you where you want to go. Secondly, you will pay dearly in terms of drivers and equipment so I hope you have really deep pockets.
Seems like a hell of a price to pay in order to say mine is bigger than yours.
But that should not shy us away from building home systems where the choice is taken towards larger bandwidths.
Please explain to me what this is going to accomplish?
First of all I seriously doubt that you will have the room or possibly the knowledge to construct an enclosure to take you where you want to go. Secondly, you will pay dearly in terms of drivers and equipment so I hope you have really deep pockets.
Seems like a hell of a price to pay in order to say mine is bigger than yours.
"Because we can" is a very good argument for DIY, and a philosophy that I am in general agreement with.
However, in this case the brief was for a very specific system, one that could reproduce rap/hip-hop well and loud. In this case, there is no real content below 30Hz, and the amount of extra cost and engineering required to take a system down to sub 20Hz levels would be completely wasted. Fun, but wasted.
However, in this case the brief was for a very specific system, one that could reproduce rap/hip-hop well and loud. In this case, there is no real content below 30Hz, and the amount of extra cost and engineering required to take a system down to sub 20Hz levels would be completely wasted. Fun, but wasted.
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