but running small custom batches is such good idea, it is a game changer and opens up a lot of opportunities here. Thanks
A one-off batch of custom drivers would mean that the design depends on a driver that will be hard to find in the future (if not impossible).
Anyway, they have a high efficiency, I did again a TSP calculation for 2.83Vrms. It looks like they specify the sensitivity at 1W, I don't know how to explain the differences.
Supravox 135 LB
Calculated with TSP: 97.1 dB < -- > 95.0 dB in datasheet
Supravox 165 GMF
Calculated with TSP: 98.1 dB < -- > 96.0 dB in datasheet
The 165 GMF looks an interesting driver on paper. I see prices around 250 euro.
Remark that these Supravox drivers have very low Mms, it looks these are typical full range drivers with controlled cone break up.
was talking in general, did not mean this project, we have some good choices here
I mentioned this Scanspeak tweeter for the monkey box.
Tweeter – Scan-Speak A/S
Maybe a good idea to look how it behaves in combination with a 6.5 inch midrange? It is not expensive, so I think it has some sense to look at it.
A good test here:
Test Scan-Speak Discovery H2606 / 920000 – Heissmann Acoustics
Tweeter – Scan-Speak A/S
Maybe a good idea to look how it behaves in combination with a 6.5 inch midrange? It is not expensive, so I think it has some sense to look at it.
A good test here:
Test Scan-Speak Discovery H2606 / 920000 – Heissmann Acoustics
well, people at AE certainly taking their time, any ideas ?
is the TD15X trusted enough to go with, without hearing back from AE ?
lets keep thing moving
I believe they are good but this is typical of boutique drivers, which is why I prefer to go with a more easily available product.
well, people at AE certainly taking their time, any ideas ?
is the TD15X trusted enough to go with, without hearing back from AE ?
lets keep thing moving
I ordered drivers from AE some years ago and it took 6 months for them to ship. I was horrified! Never again.
It certainly is an attractive one tho (specs wise)
.Thanks for the heads up, good to see others experiences w AE.
what Audio Elite mentioned about AE delivery time made me look into this, on AE forum itself more and more people complaining about their delivery time, up to 5-6 month w no news from AE and their only reply was that they were busy with some other projects, in AE terms and conditions they mention that the drivers are made to order and it will be at least 4 weeks lead time to build a driver, if it takes more than that (3-6 month!) you still won't be able to cancel your order since once you ordered the sales are final, the last post in AE forum someone asked about an update on his order and after more than 5 month there s still no answer from AE (at least on the forum). also since once you ordered sales are final they have no return policy UNLESS the unit is faulty from manufacturer, so buying a TD6M and see if they are measured up to what they claimed is outta question for me, also have to mention that all that is for orders inside US and anything overseas they literally say that it will take significantly longer.
ok , as much as i would like to own and try AE drivers, I m not at a point to make this kind of investment that may take couple of month just to get my hands on the driver, so with risk of opening a can of worm, I would suggest to forget about AE, of course they have good drivers but waiting at least a month just for them to build a driver in best case scenario is just does not work, we spend a long time on this and looks like it just drags ...
but in other hand I have some suggestions,
I HAVE NOT LOOKED IF ANYONE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE. SO IF YOU DID AND IF IT WAS IGNORED AT THE TIME I APOLOGIZE, lets just move on.
Looks like Beyma 15LX60v2 is the best candidate for now, it can reach -3db 34-35Hz in a 150 liter box. the only thing is they claimed it is a 98db driver but my cals shows it is about 94-95db which is still impressive and will have no problem reaching that half space and about 90-91 full space, this driver has 21.2 Qms !!!
second one would be Beyma SM-115N, looks pretty good can also reach -3db of 37Hz but in a larger box of 215 liter.
Ciare FXE15-4
is interesting as well and can reach ~38Hz (-3db) in a 135 liter box.
I m in for Beyma 15LX60v2.
ok , as much as i would like to own and try AE drivers, I m not at a point to make this kind of investment that may take couple of month just to get my hands on the driver, so with risk of opening a can of worm, I would suggest to forget about AE, of course they have good drivers but waiting at least a month just for them to build a driver in best case scenario is just does not work, we spend a long time on this and looks like it just drags ...
but in other hand I have some suggestions,
I HAVE NOT LOOKED IF ANYONE MENTIONED THIS BEFORE. SO IF YOU DID AND IF IT WAS IGNORED AT THE TIME I APOLOGIZE, lets just move on.
Looks like Beyma 15LX60v2 is the best candidate for now, it can reach -3db 34-35Hz in a 150 liter box. the only thing is they claimed it is a 98db driver but my cals shows it is about 94-95db which is still impressive and will have no problem reaching that half space and about 90-91 full space, this driver has 21.2 Qms !!!
second one would be Beyma SM-115N, looks pretty good can also reach -3db of 37Hz but in a larger box of 215 liter.
Ciare FXE15-4
is interesting as well and can reach ~38Hz (-3db) in a 135 liter box.
I m in for Beyma 15LX60v2.
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nice ! AE mentioned that they have some stock available and it will be shipped immediately, you can check the available stock here.
they still have 4x TD18H available for immediate shipment
more mids ?
BEYMA 605Nd
BEYMA 6MI90
both have rather high fs but other than that may worth looking into (high Qms)
BEYMA 605Nd
BEYMA 6MI90
both have rather high fs but other than that may worth looking into (high Qms)
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Aatto
I did the simulation of the 3 proposed woofers also, with almost the same results.
Beyma 15LX60v2 In 130 L tuned at 37 Hz, F3 = 36.5 Hz, F6 = 31 Hz, F10 = 27.5 Hz, sensitivity 89.8 dB full space.
Beyma Beyma SM-115N in 200 L tuned at 35 Hz, F3 = 39.5Hz, F6 = 33 Hz, F10 = 27.5 Hz, sensitivity 91.4 dB full space.
Ciare FXE15-4 in 130 L tuned at 40 Hz, F3 = 40 Hz, F6 = 35 Hz, F10 = 30.5 Hz, sensitivity 90.4 dB full space.
Remark that the Beyma 15LX60v2 has a light SPL boost of 0.2 – 0.3 dB in the 60 to 200 Hz region, this is due to the rather high Qts = 0.44. With a little series resistance of wiring and coils, this can become even worse. You can improve this lttle boost again with some dampening material, to lower the QL of the basreflex system. It is just acceptable I think.
Beyma Beyma SM-115N needs large cabinet, indeed.
The Ciare FXE15-4 in 130 L is a perfect B4 basreflex alignment.
I did the simulation of the 3 proposed woofers also, with almost the same results.
Beyma 15LX60v2 In 130 L tuned at 37 Hz, F3 = 36.5 Hz, F6 = 31 Hz, F10 = 27.5 Hz, sensitivity 89.8 dB full space.
Beyma Beyma SM-115N in 200 L tuned at 35 Hz, F3 = 39.5Hz, F6 = 33 Hz, F10 = 27.5 Hz, sensitivity 91.4 dB full space.
Ciare FXE15-4 in 130 L tuned at 40 Hz, F3 = 40 Hz, F6 = 35 Hz, F10 = 30.5 Hz, sensitivity 90.4 dB full space.
Remark that the Beyma 15LX60v2 has a light SPL boost of 0.2 – 0.3 dB in the 60 to 200 Hz region, this is due to the rather high Qts = 0.44. With a little series resistance of wiring and coils, this can become even worse. You can improve this lttle boost again with some dampening material, to lower the QL of the basreflex system. It is just acceptable I think.
Beyma Beyma SM-115N needs large cabinet, indeed.
The Ciare FXE15-4 in 130 L is a perfect B4 basreflex alignment.
Thanks for simulations Paul,
Beyma 15LX60v2 looks good but that 89.8db is bugging me, but i m in if others are ok with it.
Ciare FXE15-4 looks better by 0.6db, lol.
Ciare in a larger cabinet of 170 L tuned to 38Hz, F3=35Hz, Paul can you confirm this ? it won't be perfect alignment but still looks good. what do you think ?
Beyma 15LX60v2 looks good but that 89.8db is bugging me, but i m in if others are ok with it.
Ciare FXE15-4 looks better by 0.6db, lol.
Ciare in a larger cabinet of 170 L tuned to 38Hz, F3=35Hz, Paul can you confirm this ? it won't be perfect alignment but still looks good. what do you think ?
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For the Ciare FXE15-4, I think 170 L and fB = 35 Hz is a too large cabinet volume and the tuning frequency a little too low.
--> Ciare FXE15-4 in 170 L tuned at 35 Hz, F3 = 35.5 Hz, F6 = 31 Hz, F10 = 27 Hz, sensitivity 90.4 dB full space.
Look in the plot below what is happening. You see the response in red, compared with a Butterwoth B4 alignment at the same system frequency. It is a little more resonant at 38 Hz than the B4.
Maybe choosing something between, 145 L and tuned at 40 Hz.
--> Ciare FXE15-4 in 145 L tuned at 40 Hz, F3 = 38.0 Hz, F6 = 34 Hz, F10 = 30 Hz, sensitivity 90.4 dB full space.
Looking in the other plot now, you can see the difference, it is almost a B4 now.
Maybe the listening performance in 170 L is ok, but I prefer to choose for some standard response.
Later on, we have to look how the behavior is in the total speaker application, with respect to excursion, minimum impedance with X-over, etc…
The Faital PRO 15PR400 was also an option, but F3, F6 and F10 are a little higher, because Qts is lower for that driver. But the sensitivy is almost 2dB higher.
--> Faital PRO 15PR400 in 170 L tuned at 40 Hz, F3 = 39.3 Hz, F6 = 35.1 Hz, F10 = 31 Hz, sensitivity 92.2 dB full space.
IMO, at this moment, the Ciare looks the best one of the current proposals.
Faital, if you prefer more sensitivity, 92.2 dB full space is not bad.
For wider cabinets the BSC has to be more low frequent than smaller ones, of course. But for very low frequencies the compensation has to be 6dB. You have to create a reference SPL response for a speaker and IMO that is a flat SPL response in full space. For sure, such flat speaker will sound different in small and large rooms, far and close from a wall, but you cannot make a reference for all these different setups.
Later on, I can post a simulation of the complete speaker, designed flat in full space, how it behaves standing on a floor (that is half space) and also standing on a floor close to a wall (that is quarter space). It gives some understanding how a speaker behaves in a room.
Attachments
Once we back to driver discussion, I think some things could be improved for the driver decision process, mainly the ones to make things more clear and transparent, It was said that it's a public project using crow founding.
Paul Vancluysen is leading the simulation process.
My suggestion list was indicated at post #100 in the table at attachment #1
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/327657-source-tower-xl-10.html#post5560141
Paul Vancluysen is leading the simulation process.
- Improve project target (35~40Hz is for F3?? 150L for Vb, for cab net volume?)
- Indicate the software that has been used in the simulation and the input data. Idicate also if advanced tool have been used like losly Le and semi-inductance.
- Indicates the criteria to define Vb and Fb (Thiele BB4 aligment?). As you can see in the post below shared by bjorno attachement #2 there are many criterias to optimized Vb and Fb.
- Trace the entile list of the driver that was simulated
- Share the results for all drivers
- Publish frequency response for the drives that respect the technical targets.
My suggestion list was indicated at post #100 in the table at attachment #1
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/327657-source-tower-xl-10.html#post5560141
To avoid some misunderstanding, a flat SPL in full space is a reference target we can use for a first design and to define the sensitivity.
But it is possible that for some rooms a flat response is not performing well and that another target SPL curve is required. We will do this later for sure.
The books and presentations of Floyd Toole are very constructive concerning the room aspect.
thank you Paul for detailed reply. 1-2Hz difference between Faital and Ciare drivers is not a deal breaker for me, although the Faital has much better acceleration factor (BL/Mms) than the Ciare, I m not sure how this would effect performance, but in the other hand Ciare has 2 times better Qms (12.29 compare to 6.0) than the Faital. so either one of these two will do. My vote goes for Ciare FXE15-4 in 145L.
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Noone has considered the Faital 15FH500?
Just noticed the GD is almost unreadable, it says 6.5888msec/40hz (quite low). Around 15msec/30hz.
Just noticed the GD is almost unreadable, it says 6.5888msec/40hz (quite low). Around 15msec/30hz.
Attachments
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