Previously to following this thread I had been looking at the Zilch Econowave as a possible project. Some people have used the D220Ti with apparently great results. I have always had dome tweets. I have only heard Klipsch speakers with a CD and until reading about the Econowave thought they would all be similar. The Tower XL is the style of speaker I like so will be following the thread and hopefully building. Keep up the good work and thanks to those donating time and effort to get it going��
Ok I have some good news.
pcgab generously offered to provide us with the prototype cabinetthat is pretty amazing, thanks man.
Great! Thanks to pcgab!
Just to give my opinion on dome or CD choice for the tweeter.
I have not heard many CD systems, but with the one I have heard, for sure they sound different.
Then you can discuss about which one is the best, which one do you like, etc.
My experience is that a CD system sounds like you can always hear that the sound is coming out of a horn. Everybody knows the typical sound of a megaphone. If I listen to a CD system, I have the impression I can recognize always a very little part of that megaphone typical sound .
Difficult to describe it, but it is a kind of resonant behavior in the high medium frequency range you can hear.
The sound of a dome is more neutral, more warm, more real.
I totally have no problem if most people prefer a CD for the tweeter for this project, but I am curious if there are other people that share my opinion about the typical CD sound like I describe it.
A general remark concerning directivity. The more directive the speaker is, the more you have to sit in front of the speakers for a flat frequency spectrum. The consequence is also that there is a different power distribution in the room. I more prefer a system that has a stable sound in a room, more independent of the place where you sit, especially for a home application. That means a more omnidirectional system.
With the current choice of the 8 inch AE midrange, a waveguide will be recommend to become a flat DI response. We have to investigate if a tweeter with a deep horn throat is not too much directive at high frequencies, combined with this midrange.
Pre-measurements of the drivers on a large baffle are recommended in case of a CD tweeter choice w.r.t. directivity.
I have not heard many CD systems, but with the one I have heard, for sure they sound different.
Then you can discuss about which one is the best, which one do you like, etc.
My experience is that a CD system sounds like you can always hear that the sound is coming out of a horn. Everybody knows the typical sound of a megaphone. If I listen to a CD system, I have the impression I can recognize always a very little part of that megaphone typical sound .
Difficult to describe it, but it is a kind of resonant behavior in the high medium frequency range you can hear.
The sound of a dome is more neutral, more warm, more real.
I totally have no problem if most people prefer a CD for the tweeter for this project, but I am curious if there are other people that share my opinion about the typical CD sound like I describe it.
A general remark concerning directivity. The more directive the speaker is, the more you have to sit in front of the speakers for a flat frequency spectrum. The consequence is also that there is a different power distribution in the room. I more prefer a system that has a stable sound in a room, more independent of the place where you sit, especially for a home application. That means a more omnidirectional system.
With the current choice of the 8 inch AE midrange, a waveguide will be recommend to become a flat DI response. We have to investigate if a tweeter with a deep horn throat is not too much directive at high frequencies, combined with this midrange.
Pre-measurements of the drivers on a large baffle are recommended in case of a CD tweeter choice w.r.t. directivity.
^I agree with the directivity thing. For home listening, a shallow but wide horn should be chosen for CD. Alike large domes are "too directive" to my taste, but BlieSMA looks like being different. Waveguides usually don't increase directivity above 10K, but too often have a throat issue arond 12-15kHz.
CD+horn 100$ vs. Bliesma 350-400$ other?
CD+horn 100$ vs. Bliesma 350-400$ other?
Well, if this is the time to bring up the topic of tweeters, one might also consider the Fountek Neocd3.5H as one of the cheaper-but-still-good options, costs about 57$/each, needs xo at 2.5khz, so it demands the use of smaller mid than 8".
Going a little bit further up the price list on the ribbon tweeter ladder is the Fountek NeoCd3.0M at 75$/each might go a little bit lower xo freq, but not recommended.
The Fountek NeoCD2.0 5 Might also be an option at 114$/each. Above these the next step becomes even more expensive.
I have no opinion about which type of tweeter to choose, the different solutions all can work very well, it depends largely on the implementation. CD's can sound good or bad pending on the driver, the xo and the horn, ribbons have pretty good dispersion patterns but might need higher xo. etc. Domes also have their +/-
Going a little bit further up the price list on the ribbon tweeter ladder is the Fountek NeoCd3.0M at 75$/each might go a little bit lower xo freq, but not recommended.
The Fountek NeoCD2.0 5 Might also be an option at 114$/each. Above these the next step becomes even more expensive.
I have no opinion about which type of tweeter to choose, the different solutions all can work very well, it depends largely on the implementation. CD's can sound good or bad pending on the driver, the xo and the horn, ribbons have pretty good dispersion patterns but might need higher xo. etc. Domes also have their +/-
Not a good idea from my side trying to calculate the DI of the Founteks, looking to the vertical dispersion curves in the datasheet, only specified at 5 and 10 degrees.
As expected, they look very directive in vertical direction. I miss some extra vertical off axis data to calculate the single hemisphere DI, but I am afraid it will be (too) high.
Not my personal preferred choice these kind of drivers.
+1.
I would not do another poll. Just think about what fits best with the design goals and then go for that ;-)
I agree, no more polls.
Technical discussion of strong/weak points should be enough, the best possible price/performance solution is the common goal.
Paul, yes, they do not have so good vertical dispersion, but that is one part of the compromise. Most of the reason for this is that the drivers are long, and there are some cancellations because of this. Just like with too-short arrays.
This is why small ribbons are better, but they have less sensitivity because of less area.
Brought it up because Ribbon tweeters can sound very good, and they have some strong points, if we are to evaluate everything properly we should also look at all the different designs and evaluate all the pro's and cons before reaching a conclusion.
Technical discussion of strong/weak points should be enough, the best possible price/performance solution is the common goal.
Paul, yes, they do not have so good vertical dispersion, but that is one part of the compromise. Most of the reason for this is that the drivers are long, and there are some cancellations because of this. Just like with too-short arrays.
This is why small ribbons are better, but they have less sensitivity because of less area.
Brought it up because Ribbon tweeters can sound very good, and they have some strong points, if we are to evaluate everything properly we should also look at all the different designs and evaluate all the pro's and cons before reaching a conclusion.
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I have and have used and measured those Fountek 3.5H ribbons. I don't recommend them for Tower XL!
Usable to pair with 6,5" mids LR4 and they measure really well above 2,5kHz. Distortion jumps skyhigh just below 2khz and the ribbon gets streched/deformed easily with high spl there.
If ribbon must considered, it should be Beyma TPL-150H with the waveguide!
Beyma TPL-150H pleated diaphragm horn tweeter - Beyma TPL-150H - Beyma TPL-150H high frequency horn tweeter. Beyma TPL-150H high frequency tweeter is available here at US Speaker. Beyma TPL-150H speaker components.
Usable to pair with 6,5" mids LR4 and they measure really well above 2,5kHz. Distortion jumps skyhigh just below 2khz and the ribbon gets streched/deformed easily with high spl there.
If ribbon must considered, it should be Beyma TPL-150H with the waveguide!
Beyma TPL-150H pleated diaphragm horn tweeter - Beyma TPL-150H - Beyma TPL-150H high frequency horn tweeter. Beyma TPL-150H high frequency tweeter is available here at US Speaker. Beyma TPL-150H speaker components.
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The woofer and midrange are in the same price level (if not higher), so it should be ok to use an expensive tweeter. Otherwise the woofer + midrange would need to be reconsidered, too.
I stumbled of this thread, which might provide some food for thoughts regarding the use of compression drivers in speakers for domestic use.
Remember that the Open Source loudspeakers are meant to be efficient primarily because they should work well with weak amplifiers (AmpCamp type, or small tube amps), not because they are meant to go LOUD.
Remember that the Open Source loudspeakers are meant to be efficient primarily because they should work well with weak amplifiers (AmpCamp type, or small tube amps), not because they are meant to go LOUD.
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CD has large horn portfolio available word wide that didn't cost much.
So if JBL D220ti is considered a good sound source or others brands/models, the target for DI can be achieved with proper Horn.
It's important to mentions the large material options as: aluminum, fiber glass, plastics and currently some 3D print. It's said that material change a lot the taste of the sound, I don't have experience enough to confirm it, but probably this is true at PA level only.
If some money is available, I'd suggest to buy both options (tweeter and CD+Horn) do some measurements and tests before the final decision, would be very interesting to see this comparison. It wouldn't affect too much the budget.
So if JBL D220ti is considered a good sound source or others brands/models, the target for DI can be achieved with proper Horn.
It's important to mentions the large material options as: aluminum, fiber glass, plastics and currently some 3D print. It's said that material change a lot the taste of the sound, I don't have experience enough to confirm it, but probably this is true at PA level only.
If some money is available, I'd suggest to buy both options (tweeter and CD+Horn) do some measurements and tests before the final decision, would be very interesting to see this comparison. It wouldn't affect too much the budget.
Personally I hope the design goals as per the original polls are followed. Efficiency for lower wattage diy amps and sound quality, which I think is paramount. I would like to see the Faital XL or AE XL and Morel tweeter version built and tested. As long as the AE drivers are readily available. Maybe we could do the fund me thing for someone with the time to build and carry it through to completion. I couldn't afford to build more than one option myself but would happily rely on opinions from someone with greater knowledge and understanding than my own. I think $1000 USD for drivers is OK but adding something like the Beyma's would make it too expensive. I like Paul's original box design combined with the goals etc... set out in the first post. Newbie 2 cents with no other technical knowledge to offer
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