I think you may need more than a 10" for that sort of efficiency into 8 ohms. You are also likely to have little low frequency extension from a pro driver with >92 dB + baffle step efficiency. Where you are aiming in terms of size vs extension vs efficiency needs to be stated or iterated towards.
I agree that a monitor and a tower should be treated as different types of speakers because a person that wants to build one is unlikely to consider the other as a substitute. In terms of monitors there seems to be broadly three types:
1) modest efficiency with good bass extension home speakers
2) high efficiency with little bass extension and a somewhat ragged response pro/party/valve amp speakers
3) recording monitors with fairly pricey drivers somewhere inbetween.
I agree on the >10". But bass extension should not be the primary concern.
The volume is limited to maybe 80 liters? So the potential for deep bass at 92dbw is simply not there. If people want more deep bass they should just add subs, therefore it's better to make a sealed box because it would ease integration with a sub.
Nothing wrong with making a "poor mans NS-5000", just have to focus, choose the right parts.
My vote goes to single 12", maybe double 10" or single 15" if the "right" driver can be found.
The volume is limited to maybe 80 liters? So the potential for deep bass at 92dbw is simply not there. If people want more deep bass they should just add subs, therefore it's better to make a sealed box because it would ease integration with a sub.
Nothing wrong with making a "poor mans NS-5000", just have to focus, choose the right parts.
My vote goes to single 12", maybe double 10" or single 15" if the "right" driver can be found.
I have just looked up the Yamaha NS-5000 and it appears to be a speaker targeted at the home audiophile based around the appeal of the old NS-1000. Quite a few of the features designed to hook into the marketing like the cone material, resonance suppression chambers,... do not look DIY friendly. The lack of features like directivity control, active crossovers,... indicates it is not intended to have the technical performance of a modern studio monitor.
I can see the appeal of monitor speakers but I am not sure how this speaker could form the basis of a practical DIY group project?
my 5cent's
I think that now day's young people are not into high end big boxes.
Thay are more into compact, small speakers, which you can connect to mobile phone via blue tooth or something like that.
I know that LP is back, but beside that there is only streaming from web.
Apartments in EU are expensive and small, so I think that most young people will look for something that will fit inside their living room.
So my thinking is that something like Kii THREE (hypex), or Kairos/Kalasan mide do the trick (but you can build Kairos/Kalasan without problem)
Ok, Kii is a little to overcomplicated with DSP, etc...
But maybe some 2way, maybe with passive radiator on side, rather than bass reflex.
Or modular 2way with option to add some sub/woofer instead of stands.
My opinion is that sensitivity should not be a problem as now days we have high power D class which can push any loudspeakers.
There are more and more DSP, and good D class amplifiers that are more friendly to use than pasive crossovers.
I must say that I don't like those boxy, clasic, yamaha look
most of my friend's would rether have W5 than some big speakers
so it would be great to have some high end sound in compact design.
(for me SBacoustics have good value ratio)
just my thinking...
I think that now day's young people are not into high end big boxes.
Thay are more into compact, small speakers, which you can connect to mobile phone via blue tooth or something like that.
I know that LP is back, but beside that there is only streaming from web.
Apartments in EU are expensive and small, so I think that most young people will look for something that will fit inside their living room.
So my thinking is that something like Kii THREE (hypex), or Kairos/Kalasan mide do the trick (but you can build Kairos/Kalasan without problem)
Ok, Kii is a little to overcomplicated with DSP, etc...
But maybe some 2way, maybe with passive radiator on side, rather than bass reflex.
Or modular 2way with option to add some sub/woofer instead of stands.
My opinion is that sensitivity should not be a problem as now days we have high power D class which can push any loudspeakers.
There are more and more DSP, and good D class amplifiers that are more friendly to use than pasive crossovers.
I must say that I don't like those boxy, clasic, yamaha look
most of my friend's would rether have W5 than some big speakers
so it would be great to have some high end sound in compact design.
(for me SBacoustics have good value ratio)
just my thinking...
Of course there is a compromise between size, efficiency and bass extension. No surprise. It's just a question of getting the compromise right.
Just in case we will ever stop babbeling about the key design criteria, we might actually start doing the design work. And maybe someone would build a test unit and do some measurements. And with a little bit of luck others will pick up the pieces and fix/improve things. And build a second test unit. Etcetera. The way it's working right now I would be extremely surprised if this ever works out to a finished "community" speaker design, and I certainly don't see us working out a multitude of different speaker types that way. One will be difficult enough.
Someone needs to take the lead on this and define the roads we are allowed to travel on. Aatto?
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So where should it be for this speaker design?
Some of us are trying to get you to continue the design work for the type of speaker you started in post #319. This involves making some decisions to harden the spec. If people can see where the design is going they can get on board with constructive suggestions. Others may baulk at a particular decision and drop out but this is inevitable. You only need a small number of people to get enthusiastic but, obviously, it does need to be more than one.
You continue things for this monitor speaker, I may start to get things going for a $1k tower if nobody else who has spoken for it earlier does, Aatto has expressed an interest in a basszilla-type speaker,... It will soon be clear if some people are getting on board or not and hence if it is worth starting a separate thread or not.
Personally, I do not like the "tower" format for various reasons.
But if that's what people want, limit bass section volume to 80 liters and base the design around a sealed solution, my vote goes to:
2 Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G 10" per channel. Connected in parallel ofcourse.
The Scanspeak 15M/4624G Discovery, 5.5" may be a well suited mid, decent response, not too expensive, and slightly less sensitive than the double 10".
The ScanSpeak Discovery R2604/8320 1" tweeter is a relatively new product, FS is quite low for a 1" dome, at 500hz! It is also reasonably priced, has a very nice frequency response, and also slightly less sensitivity than the 5,5" mid.
Woofers 105.60$ each
Midrange 69.40$ each
Tweeter 50.20$ each
So total cost in drivers per speaker would be 330.80 USD if ordering from Madisound. Crossover frequencies might be 300hz and somewhere between 1800-2300hz, use some overlap on xo to reduce unwanted effects. Spheric enclosures for the mid and tweet (think B&W type solution) with classic tower like enclosure for the double 10"s. And I rather like the solution Yamaha use to reduce internal modes in the cabinets, so maybe we could calculate some cardboard pipes with polyfill inside to further minimize effects from those.
Edit:
Added links for the drivers.
But if that's what people want, limit bass section volume to 80 liters and base the design around a sealed solution, my vote goes to:
2 Scanspeak Discovery 26W/8534G 10" per channel. Connected in parallel ofcourse.
The Scanspeak 15M/4624G Discovery, 5.5" may be a well suited mid, decent response, not too expensive, and slightly less sensitive than the double 10".
The ScanSpeak Discovery R2604/8320 1" tweeter is a relatively new product, FS is quite low for a 1" dome, at 500hz! It is also reasonably priced, has a very nice frequency response, and also slightly less sensitivity than the 5,5" mid.
Woofers 105.60$ each
Midrange 69.40$ each
Tweeter 50.20$ each
So total cost in drivers per speaker would be 330.80 USD if ordering from Madisound. Crossover frequencies might be 300hz and somewhere between 1800-2300hz, use some overlap on xo to reduce unwanted effects. Spheric enclosures for the mid and tweet (think B&W type solution) with classic tower like enclosure for the double 10"s. And I rather like the solution Yamaha use to reduce internal modes in the cabinets, so maybe we could calculate some cardboard pipes with polyfill inside to further minimize effects from those.
Edit:
Added links for the drivers.
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Good question. Several members expressed interest in compatibility with weak amps, but (as far as I remember) there were no explicit requests for "deep bass", or even a -3dB frequency number. Given this, I'd suggest to be rather relaxed and suggest a -3 dB frequency of 50 Hz or so. Clean 50 Hz sounds very deep to my ears. Going much lower will mean a HUGE speaker, or less efficiency (i.e., stronger amps). Or adding a dedicated active subwoofer (easy).
Oh, ok. Really? I didn't realise that. The issue with this is that I see no use of such a speaker for myself, so the motivation to design and build such a speaker (with other members here watching me do it) is not very big.
Ok, well, maybe, that could be a way out, but I am not convinced. I don't like the idea of "some guy develps a speaker and others are cheering or barking at him". While this might qualify as "open source", the result would still be the design of this particular guy. There are a gazillion of (DIY) speaker designs by some guy out there. Some are good, some are not, but they are almost always the result of one guy making all the decisions. This project could be different by being a design of many cooks that worked together in an open way, and this alone would make this speaker design very unique.
I does look like a cool idea, but do we know how well it works? I have never seen or heard about this. Any measurements or models about those tubes? I am just a bit suspicious that this could be something they invented in the marketing department (I'd love to be convinced otherwise).
One of the most important concerns is what is it a potential DIYer may find interesting to build. Without a poll, I am not sure how we will find that out. That is the reason why I suggested that everyone interested in helping to design a loudspeaker solution, presents his case with some data and possibly pictures. Let's keep this as simple as possible so it has some chance of a success.
I really think it's possible to make it work, it is a bit like bass traps and/or sound absorption/diffusion solutions for room treatment. Only scaled down to work inside the speaker, it is quite clever, and allows for minimal material usage to only dampen the right frequencies, instead of the somewhat brute approach of chucking the chamber full of stuff and hoping it will be enough.
This is what I have so far, if there's any mistakes here or if i missed a suggestion it was not intentional, Let me know and I will fix it, if I missed anything just add it to the list.
1- Post #221 by Zvu - 3-Way Tower, 2x 8-10" Woofers on Sides, 5" Midrange, waveguide loaded tweeter.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer, 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
I would suggest to re-post your suggestions with more details and explanations and maybe why you like the idea, this way it will help us to choose, if there s not enough info it will be ignored (Like sensitivity, how low you like it to go, etc...)
1- Post #221 by Zvu - 3-Way Tower, 2x 8-10" Woofers on Sides, 5" Midrange, waveguide loaded tweeter.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer, 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
I would suggest to re-post your suggestions with more details and explanations and maybe why you like the idea, this way it will help us to choose, if there s not enough info it will be ignored (Like sensitivity, how low you like it to go, etc...)
See graphs from Basta, bafflestep and predicted crossover included (Rs 0.3Ohm), bumps around 300Hz are typical for crossover around 300Hz and will have to be suppressed with RLC.
2xNE225W-08 BR70l, sensitivity ~90dB/2.83V/1m
2xNE265W-08 BR80l, sensitivity ~90dB/2.83V/1m
There is also SS6600 measurements with and without WG148R, both taken in baffle with R50 roundovers. Dip at 500Hz for SS6600 + WG148 was caused by air leak around tweeter terminals as I removed rear cup and not properly sealed it afterwards.
Effect of WG is clear. Baffle was tilted back 7deg, that enabled LR2/LR2 crossover.
WG148R has to be modified to accomodate SS6600 without faceplate. This plus CNCed front baffle makes project quite difficult to reproduce, but CNC shops are quite common.
Anyway, it is all just suggestion and inspiration.
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My candidate, Inpired by Dick Olsher's Basszilla.
Goal: Deep powerfull base, possibly -3db of 30Hz-40Hz, High sensetivity of ~90db+, Close to Linear impedance curve, Possibly Transient Perfect.
Will be DSP based for LF and delay and EQ for HF and maybe use passive XO for Mid and Tweeter.
Drivers:
12" Woofer:
BMS 12N630
or
EMINENCE KAPPALITE 3012LF
or
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8
6" Midrange:
Fostex FE168EZ
or
Markaudio Alpair-10M Gen3
or
possibly new Markaudio 11MS (will have to see how it turns out)
Tweeter:
Morel CAT 308
Poorman version - lower sensetivity, perhaps -3db of 40-50Hz:
8-10" Woofer:
SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8
6" Midrange:
Fostex FE166En
or
Markaudio Alpair-10M Gen3
or
possibly new Markaudio 11MS (will have to see how it turns out)
Tweeter:
Peerless XT25BG60-04.
The poorman version will also be DSP based for LF and delay and EQ for HF and maybe use passive XO for Mid and Tweeter.
Goal: Deep powerfull base, possibly -3db of 30Hz-40Hz, High sensetivity of ~90db+, Close to Linear impedance curve, Possibly Transient Perfect.
Will be DSP based for LF and delay and EQ for HF and maybe use passive XO for Mid and Tweeter.
Drivers:
12" Woofer:
BMS 12N630
or
EMINENCE KAPPALITE 3012LF
or
SB Acoustics SB34NRXL75-8
6" Midrange:
Fostex FE168EZ
or
Markaudio Alpair-10M Gen3
or
possibly new Markaudio 11MS (will have to see how it turns out)
Tweeter:
Morel CAT 308
Poorman version - lower sensetivity, perhaps -3db of 40-50Hz:
8-10" Woofer:
SB Acoustics SB23NRXS45-8
6" Midrange:
Fostex FE166En
or
Markaudio Alpair-10M Gen3
or
possibly new Markaudio 11MS (will have to see how it turns out)
Tweeter:
Peerless XT25BG60-04.
The poorman version will also be DSP based for LF and delay and EQ for HF and maybe use passive XO for Mid and Tweeter.
Attachments
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1- Post #221 by Zvu - 3-Way standmount, 2x 8-10" Woofers on Sides, 5" Midrange, waveguide loaded tweeter.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer, 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 #335 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
15- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Deep Powerful bass, 90+db, 12" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
16- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Poorman version - Powerful bass, ~88db, 8-10" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
2- Post #262 by Andersonix - OB5
3- Post#281 by Lojzek - Yamaha NS-5000
4- Post #294 by LineSource - 3-Way SB Acoustic Drivers 12"Woofer + 6.5"Midrange and 1" Dome Tweeter.
5- Post #296 by wesayso - 3 or 4-Way - Narrow bandwidth with DSP.
6- Post #303 by Andersonix - Alon Model I
7- Post #306 by LineSource - 12" DSP Controlled woofer, 12" midrange, Peerless CD+Wave Guide.
8- Post #310 #335 by Pida - 3-Way 90-91db, 2x8" Woofers, 6-7"midrange and waveguide loaded tweeter.
9- Post #319 by mbrennwa - Monkey Coffin 3-Way monitor ~92db, 10" Woofer, Cone Midrange, 1" Dome Tweeter.
10- Post #320 by Lojzek - Dynaudio Evidence Master, 92db, 4x 8" Woofer, 2x 6" Midrange, 2x 1" Tweeter.
11- Post #320 by Lojzek - Wharfedale Heritage Airedale - 90db, 15" Woofer, 8" Bass/Mid, 3" Midrange, 1" Tweeter, 1" Super Tweeter (subject to alterations in our favour).
12- Post#325 by Yoke - Kii THREE
13- Post#325 by Yoke - Kairos.
14- Post#328 by KaffiMann - 3-Way Scan Speak - 2x 10" Woofer, 5.5" Midrange and 1" Tweeter.
15- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Deep Powerful bass, 90+db, 12" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
16- Post #336 by Aatto - 3-Way, Basszilla inspired - Poorman version - Powerful bass, ~88db, 8-10" Woofer, 6" Midrange and 1" Tweeter, DSP+Passive XO.
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Hey Aatto, a good job of presenting your design candidate. It seems as good practice to further attract the interest of the potential builders. With time perhaps we could enrich each of our suggestion posts with some generic simulations to give an idea of sensitivity, low end response and impedance based upon specific brand name drivers. Anyhow, I mean it for those feeling ready to do such additional work. I feel I should stress out that I have no particular personal interest/goal of people accepting my design suggestions, it's just some ideas being offered.
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Harbeth Monitor 40.2 domestic
Perhaps this product has got the potential of being interesting with a modificiation of putting the tweeter into a waveguide. An enclosure design employing solutions found by BBC Research Department 1977/3 in "Factors in the design of loudspeaker cabinets"pdf. A light structure with well damped enclosure panels, sounds like something special, definitely not an everyday sight in a loudspeaker world.
Transducer system 3-way vented:
300mm Harbeth bass unit;
200mm RADIAL2™ mid;
25mm ferro-cooled soft dome tweeter
Frequency response:35Hz - 20kHz ±3dB free-space, grille on, smooth off-axis response
Impedance: 6-8 ohms, easy to drive
Sensitivity :86dB/1W/1m
Dimensions:750 x 432 x 388mm (+12mm for grille and binding posts)
Perhaps this product has got the potential of being interesting with a modificiation of putting the tweeter into a waveguide. An enclosure design employing solutions found by BBC Research Department 1977/3 in "Factors in the design of loudspeaker cabinets"pdf. A light structure with well damped enclosure panels, sounds like something special, definitely not an everyday sight in a loudspeaker world.
Transducer system 3-way vented:
300mm Harbeth bass unit;
200mm RADIAL2™ mid;
25mm ferro-cooled soft dome tweeter
Frequency response:35Hz - 20kHz ±3dB free-space, grille on, smooth off-axis response
Impedance: 6-8 ohms, easy to drive
Sensitivity :86dB/1W/1m
Dimensions:750 x 432 x 388mm (+12mm for grille and binding posts)
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