Konnichiwa,
Either by measuring (compare the ESR and capacitance to the nominal datasheet values for the capacitor) or by a "best guess", which is usally around 4 - 6 Years for gear in normal use, a shorter period (2 - 3 Years) for gear "always on" and no more than 10 Years for "Component on the shelf".
Any mixture suggests the shorter period.
All the above is of course estimations and guesswork, capacitors in certain positions age much fater in use than others, it also depends hor far from the limits the ripple current and voltage across the capacitor is.
In some Power Amplifiers (High End ones) these are set such that capacitors are materially degraded as quickly as six month continous operation and would benefit a lot from replacement.
Sayonara
Bricolo said:
Either by measuring (compare the ESR and capacitance to the nominal datasheet values for the capacitor) or by a "best guess", which is usally around 4 - 6 Years for gear in normal use, a shorter period (2 - 3 Years) for gear "always on" and no more than 10 Years for "Component on the shelf".
Any mixture suggests the shorter period.
All the above is of course estimations and guesswork, capacitors in certain positions age much fater in use than others, it also depends hor far from the limits the ripple current and voltage across the capacitor is.
In some Power Amplifiers (High End ones) these are set such that capacitors are materially degraded as quickly as six month continous operation and would benefit a lot from replacement.
Sayonara
Re: Re: What 'lytics to use?
Thanks Thorsten - this is a great, concise reference. There is so much stuff in some of the other threads on capacitors, that go round and round in circles.
Are "secondary" positions things like regulators, or something else?
Point well made and taken. I do understand that the 624 is not a fantastic machine by any stretch of the imagination, however, down this end of the world, we don't have the same choice/cost equation. And, as Jean-Paul says, it's not too bad either.
I have looked at some of the better machines ranging from some older units with CDM1, to one of your favourites - the CD63. As an example - a Marantz CD73, with suspect laser, sold for nearly $200. A Marants CD63 went for almost $400. An Arcam Alpha with skipping problems sold for over $100. An Arcam Delta 70.3 went for $500. I also looked at buying a machine in Europe at a good price - but the shipping costs are not woth it.
For this type of money, I can do all of the mods to my 624 and be confident about reliability. If I'm still not happy with the sound - for a little extra, I can put in a different dac board. Maybe not the ideal solution for the "best" sound, but I think it is a practical approach for improved sound. Also, most of the cost is on specific items like the clock and its PS, extra transformers and their associated capacitors - which will be placed on separate boards. These can easily be moved to another machine or external dac - if it comes to that.
The generic electronic supplier here only stock Jamicon or Hitano. RS Components and Farnell have Os-Con, Rubycon ZA/ZL/YK/YXA/YXF, Panasonic FA/FC, Elna Starget/RJH, Nichicon PM/PS, BC Components 037. An Os-Con SH 33uF/16V cost $4 - a Rubycon ZA 33/16V costs $1.40 - a BC 037 33uF/16V cost $0.33.
I'm not complaining about the prices - just highlighting the need for carefull placement of the costlier items.
For those who are shopping internationally, Percyaudio.com has good prices (relatively) on Nichicon Muse and Black Gates (if they are your thing).
Percyaudio.com
Thanks Thorsten - this is a great, concise reference. There is so much stuff in some of the other threads on capacitors, that go round and round in circles.
Are "secondary" positions things like regulators, or something else?
Point well made and taken. I do understand that the 624 is not a fantastic machine by any stretch of the imagination, however, down this end of the world, we don't have the same choice/cost equation. And, as Jean-Paul says, it's not too bad either.
I have looked at some of the better machines ranging from some older units with CDM1, to one of your favourites - the CD63. As an example - a Marantz CD73, with suspect laser, sold for nearly $200. A Marants CD63 went for almost $400. An Arcam Alpha with skipping problems sold for over $100. An Arcam Delta 70.3 went for $500. I also looked at buying a machine in Europe at a good price - but the shipping costs are not woth it.
For this type of money, I can do all of the mods to my 624 and be confident about reliability. If I'm still not happy with the sound - for a little extra, I can put in a different dac board. Maybe not the ideal solution for the "best" sound, but I think it is a practical approach for improved sound. Also, most of the cost is on specific items like the clock and its PS, extra transformers and their associated capacitors - which will be placed on separate boards. These can easily be moved to another machine or external dac - if it comes to that.
The generic electronic supplier here only stock Jamicon or Hitano. RS Components and Farnell have Os-Con, Rubycon ZA/ZL/YK/YXA/YXF, Panasonic FA/FC, Elna Starget/RJH, Nichicon PM/PS, BC Components 037. An Os-Con SH 33uF/16V cost $4 - a Rubycon ZA 33/16V costs $1.40 - a BC 037 33uF/16V cost $0.33.
I'm not complaining about the prices - just highlighting the need for carefull placement of the costlier items.
For those who are shopping internationally, Percyaudio.com has good prices (relatively) on Nichicon Muse and Black Gates (if they are your thing).
Percyaudio.com
Re: Re: Re: What 'lytics to use?
Konnichiwa,
They are around uP, Remote Receiver, drawer motor functions etc, basically everything that will be in my "optimal power" solution be powered from the local PSU.....
The same has been said about the Bose "Acoustimass" Lifestyle system.
What sort of Dollar are we talking here? Liberian Dollar? Surely not US....
Uk to Oz via surface mail hardly breaks the bank.
In my "commercial" mods I use Sanyo Os-Con SC Series, 22uF/10V for the digital sections. At Farnell/CPC I pay 39 pence each ($ US 0.70). I cannot comprehend how you get prices of $US 4 for the same sort of thing. Shop around a bit more.... Especially in Asia (HK, China, Taiwan, Japan) you should be able to get generic stuff (such as Sanyo Os-Con's, premium grade Rubycon and Panasonic etc.) for very little money. Once I need larger quanteties than current I will switch from my european source to the far east too, as then the extra shipping etc is worth it.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Fin said:
They are around uP, Remote Receiver, drawer motor functions etc, basically everything that will be in my "optimal power" solution be powered from the local PSU.....
Fin said:
The same has been said about the Bose "Acoustimass" Lifestyle system.
Fin said:
What sort of Dollar are we talking here? Liberian Dollar? Surely not US....
Fin said:
Uk to Oz via surface mail hardly breaks the bank.
Fin said:
In my "commercial" mods I use Sanyo Os-Con SC Series, 22uF/10V for the digital sections. At Farnell/CPC I pay 39 pence each ($ US 0.70). I cannot comprehend how you get prices of $US 4 for the same sort of thing. Shop around a bit more.... Especially in Asia (HK, China, Taiwan, Japan) you should be able to get generic stuff (such as Sanyo Os-Con's, premium grade Rubycon and Panasonic etc.) for very little money. Once I need larger quanteties than current I will switch from my european source to the far east too, as then the extra shipping etc is worth it.
Sayonara
It's Bricolo's turn
Just about everyone in this thread has been given a hard time because of their choice of CD player to work with. Some, like Thorsten, have an educated background in this field and have done extensivle testing and listening to arrive at their decissions. Others have more or less stumbled accross their particular CDP, maybe purchasing it before any real knowledge was obtained, while believing the hyped up reviews in th Hi-Fi magazines at the time.
However, there is one person who has just popped up in this thread again
- and who has so far escaped without a roasting!
Bricolo - you received over 400 recommendations from forum members on which CDP to purchase for modifying:- see the following two threads:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11237&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15949&highlight=
Firstly, why did you finally decide on the Marantz CD62, with its plastic Philips case, CDM4/19 mechanism, SAA7310 decoder, SAA7322 digital filter and SAA7350 Bitstream DAC?
And
Secondly, how is your project going?
Bricolo said:
Just about everyone in this thread has been given a hard time because of their choice of CD player to work with. Some, like Thorsten, have an educated background in this field and have done extensivle testing and listening to arrive at their decissions. Others have more or less stumbled accross their particular CDP, maybe purchasing it before any real knowledge was obtained, while believing the hyped up reviews in th Hi-Fi magazines at the time.
However, there is one person who has just popped up in this thread again
- and who has so far escaped without a roasting!Bricolo - you received over 400 recommendations from forum members on which CDP to purchase for modifying:- see the following two threads:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11237&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15949&highlight=
Firstly, why did you finally decide on the Marantz CD62, with its plastic Philips case, CDM4/19 mechanism, SAA7310 decoder, SAA7322 digital filter and SAA7350 Bitstream DAC?
And
Secondly, how is your project going?
Ok
Does the "optimal power" solution change at all if the local PSU is larger than that in the CD723?
Ok - but now you are starting to offend me!
Why would I use the Liberian Dollar, or any other Dollar apart from AUD$, in Australia? The point I was attempting to make by quoting the Dollar prices for the example CDPs, was that it is not so easy for me to pick up a CD723 for GBP15 (like the one on E-Bay in the UK), and that I think the cost of getting a "good" secondhand machine here might be better spent on parts for the player that I already have.
BTW, AUD$1 = GBP0.40 or GBP1 = AUD$2.50. But to get a true representation of value in one country vs another country we would need to do a proper exchange rate analysis including McParity etc.
However, I do see the point that you are making, ie. that no matter what I put into the 624, it will never be any better than the RF produced by the CDM4 and the quality of the I/V opamp in the DAC chip. That it would be better diverting some of the "modding money" to purchase a different machine.
No - it doesn't break the bank - but it is all reflected in the cost / sound quality equation and how far you want to go. Some of the members of this forum in India, find that their best solution is obtained by moddifying the heck out of cassette decks. They are aware that they would get better results working with CD players, but the cost and availability of hardware and software leads them in one direction.
I have no idea why I thought that was relevent!!!!
I looked into shipping two machines from Germany about four months ago. The two players totalled AUD$40, but the shipping cost was AUD$400. Maybe there is a cheaper way to do this (ie. surface mail - with someone packing it for me on that side of the world) and a friend in The Netherlands is investigating it for me.
Agreed, none of these costs are excessive in the overall scheme of things, if the ultimate goal is to achieve the best sound. However, I think Jean-Paul has a valid point about this being an appropriate machine on which to learn. It has reasonable space inside and mostly consists of full size components. As I already have it, and if it is as bad as you say, its cost/value is AUD$0.00. Therefore, if I end up destroying it, I have lost nothing. If it ends up sounding great, then that is a real bonus.
I do need to do more shopping around! The prices quoted for capacitors were in AUD$ as well - I should have been more specific. Also, I quoted for the SH series of Os-Cons. The SC series is cheaper and through Farnell I can get 22uF/10V for AUD$2.80 = GBP1.12.
We are both dealing with the same company and they have an office/distribution in Sydney, but I pay nearly three times as much for the same part?????? Some questions need to be asked?????
The SA series has just become available through RS Components Australia. A 33uF/10V is only AUD$2.00 or GBP0.80. So - only twice the cost for the privelidge of being closer to Japan!
Seems like one option would be to buy the Philips CD723 on E-Bay UK for GBP15, get someone to fill it with Os-Cons from Farnell UK and send it to me.
Re: It's Bricolo's turn
First: the CD62 has a 100% metal case!
Secondly: I had a very good deal on it, that's why I bought it. 40€ (even with shipping, IIRC) and was nearly unused (must have been in a 2nd rig). The laser is in a very good state (reads CDRWs) and aesthetically, it looks brand new too
And the last but not the least, when I opened it I had a good surprise. The boards are 2 layer, one is 100% used as a groundplane. And the player has 2 boards, one for the control and decoder, the other with filter dac and output stage. Both are connected with plain I2S. Changing the dac will be a pleasure
The only drawback is that even if the boards are double sided, there is no via. The connection between a smd IC (under the board) and the groundplane is made with a piece of "through hole" wire, soldered to the groundplane.
I was more looking for a CD72 (and its variations) but they were at least 3 times more expensive.
Fin said:
Just about everyone in this thread has been given a hard time because of their choice of CD player to work with. Some, like Thorsten, have an educated background in this field and have done extensivle testing and listening to arrive at their decissions. Others have more or less stumbled accross their particular CDP, maybe purchasing it before any real knowledge was obtained, while believing the hyped up reviews in th Hi-Fi magazines at the time.
However, there is one person who has just popped up in this thread again
Bricolo - you received over 400 recommendations from forum members on which CDP to purchase for modifying:- see the following two threads:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11237&highlight=
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15949&highlight=
Firstly, why did you finally decide on the Marantz CD62, with its plastic Philips case, CDM4/19 mechanism, SAA7310 decoder, SAA7322 digital filter and SAA7350 Bitstream DAC?
And
Secondly, how is your project going?
First: the CD62 has a 100% metal case!
Secondly: I had a very good deal on it, that's why I bought it. 40€ (even with shipping, IIRC) and was nearly unused (must have been in a 2nd rig). The laser is in a very good state (reads CDRWs) and aesthetically, it looks brand new too
And the last but not the least, when I opened it I had a good surprise. The boards are 2 layer, one is 100% used as a groundplane. And the player has 2 boards, one for the control and decoder, the other with filter dac and output stage. Both are connected with plain I2S. Changing the dac will be a pleasure
The only drawback is that even if the boards are double sided, there is no via. The connection between a smd IC (under the board) and the groundplane is made with a piece of "through hole" wire, soldered to the groundplane.
I was more looking for a CD72 (and its variations) but they were at least 3 times more expensive.
Re: Re: Re: Re: What 'lytics to use?
Konnichiwa,
Not really.
In international settings usually saying $ means $US, if local currencies are quoted other than for colloquial illustration (eg I bought this for five bux, quid or whatever) it helps to include at least the exchange rate to $US.
Well, as said, if you are up for a radical re-build, like perhaps external I2S connected DAC, CD-624 demoted to "transport only" duties and optimised for that including adressing some of the weaknesses of the drive itself you have a good basis.
I just feel that the 624 is not a good platform for what I'd call "traditional" mods.
Royal Mail to/from Oz was not that expensive last time I used it.
Actually, giving the high 2nd hand prices in Oz, you might loose the better part of a contribution towards something more suitable to modifying?
Clearly.
Not a bad start.... ;-)
Even better to get something like a Marantz CD94.....
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Fin said:
Not really.
Fin said:
In international settings usually saying $ means $US, if local currencies are quoted other than for colloquial illustration (eg I bought this for five bux, quid or whatever) it helps to include at least the exchange rate to $US.
Fin said:
Well, as said, if you are up for a radical re-build, like perhaps external I2S connected DAC, CD-624 demoted to "transport only" duties and optimised for that including adressing some of the weaknesses of the drive itself you have a good basis.
I just feel that the 624 is not a good platform for what I'd call "traditional" mods.
Fin said:
Royal Mail to/from Oz was not that expensive last time I used it.
Fin said:
Actually, giving the high 2nd hand prices in Oz, you might loose the better part of a contribution towards something more suitable to modifying?
Fin said:The SC series is cheaper and through Farnell I can get 22uF/10V for AUD$2.80 = GBP1.12.
We are both dealing with the same company and they have an office/distribution in Sydney, but I pay nearly three times as much for the same part?????? Some questions need to be asked?????
Clearly.
Fin said:Seems like one option would be to buy the Philips CD723 on E-Bay UK for GBP15, get someone to fill it with Os-Cons from Farnell UK and send it to me.
Not a bad start.... ;-)
Even better to get something like a Marantz CD94.....
Sayonara
Moving on
Hi Bricolo
My appologies if it seemed like I was having a go at you - I was just trying to enlist some moral support from someone with a similar machine - and who chose it after receiving advice from so many people.
Are you using the service manual of the CD850MK2 that I suggested, or did you get a Marantz one for the CD62?
Wouldn't it be better to do the upgrade to our CDM4s that we know are in good condition? Please tell us more!!!!
I did find this in another thread where they seem to think that the CDM2 can be upgraded to a CDM4!!!!!! Fancy that!!!!!!
CDM2 to CDM4??????????????????????????????????
Hi Thorsten
I think it will eventually evolve into a radical re-build - depending on the outcome of the first round of modifications.
What about an internal I2S connected DAC?
The new DAC board could be placed inside its own metal case - inside the CDP. - Any good?
Understood.
Unfortunately I brought the wrong brand name of CDP with me when I moved here. If it was the Marantz equivalent, it would be a different story.
Constantly on the lookout for something like that. When I eventually find the right one, I can transfer all of the power supplies, clock and experience to that one.
Hi Bricolo
My appologies if it seemed like I was having a go at you - I was just trying to enlist some moral support from someone with a similar machine - and who chose it after receiving advice from so many people.
Are you using the service manual of the CD850MK2 that I suggested, or did you get a Marantz one for the CD62?
Wouldn't it be better to do the upgrade to our CDM4s that we know are in good condition? Please tell us more!!!!
I did find this in another thread where they seem to think that the CDM2 can be upgraded to a CDM4!!!!!! Fancy that!!!!!!
CDM2 to CDM4??????????????????????????????????
Hi Thorsten
I think it will eventually evolve into a radical re-build - depending on the outcome of the first round of modifications.
What about an internal I2S connected DAC?
The new DAC board could be placed inside its own metal case - inside the CDP. - Any good?
Understood.
Unfortunately I brought the wrong brand name of CDP with me when I moved here. If it was the Marantz equivalent, it would be a different story.
Constantly on the lookout for something like that. When I eventually find the right one, I can transfer all of the power supplies, clock and experience to that one.
CD62 for sure is plastic.
Upgrade from CDM2 to CDM4 *lol*
Upgrade from brushless to Mabuchi.
I have two Marantz players with same board. One is CDM1 mkII other is CDM4.
Only difference is that one board got a pair of transistors and a few other parts and the board of the other player does not have these parts.
But 723 or other 7 series might have other electronics and necessary changes different.
Also the MAB servo chip is another version but no idea if this matters,
Upgrade from CDM2 to CDM4 *lol*
Upgrade from brushless to Mabuchi.
I have two Marantz players with same board. One is CDM1 mkII other is CDM4.
Only difference is that one board got a pair of transistors and a few other parts and the board of the other player does not have these parts.
But 723 or other 7 series might have other electronics and necessary changes different.
Also the MAB servo chip is another version but no idea if this matters,
Re: Moving on
Konnichiwa,
Hi Thorsten
What about an internal I2S connected DAC?
The new DAC board could be placed inside its own metal case - inside the CDP. - Any good?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure, internal or external makes little difference, except with an external DAC in an external case you get more milage in the long run and you have more spaceand all that. But it's your choice.
Hi ThorstenConstantly on the lookout for something like that. When I eventually find the right one, I can transfer all of the power supplies, clock and experience to that one. [/B][/QUOTE]
The consider having supplies, Clock and DAC in a seperate case.... ;-)
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Hi Thorsten
What about an internal I2S connected DAC?
The new DAC board could be placed inside its own metal case - inside the CDP. - Any good?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sure, internal or external makes little difference, except with an external DAC in an external case you get more milage in the long run and you have more spaceand all that. But it's your choice.
Hi ThorstenConstantly on the lookout for something like that. When I eventually find the right one, I can transfer all of the power supplies, clock and experience to that one. [/B][/QUOTE]
The consider having supplies, Clock and DAC in a seperate case.... ;-)
Sayonara
Re: Moving on
No problem, Fin
Yes I'm using the CD850MKII's service manual. It's a good help. Nearly everything seems similar (the only differences I've noticed are in the FTS and display+buttons borads)
Yes, if by plastic you meaned the bracing, so yes it's plastic (not sure it's worse, plastic may have more damped resonances). But the outside (U shaped top), meatal bottom plate, the front and rear plate are also metal. That's what I call a metal case, for me the casing is the outside. Maybe we misunderstood.
Yes I'm planning to change the DAc, for the momment I'm trying to get Rudolf's super pair IV to work
I have a +3V DC offset on the output, whatever I do with the pot.
The sound is good, but I'm no reference. This one is my first real cd player.
Yes, for sure
I got one and you don't, who can be sure?
Fin said:Hi Bricolo
My appologies if it seemed like I was having a go at you - I was just trying to enlist some moral support from someone with a similar machine - and who chose it after receiving advice from so many people.
Are you using the service manual of the CD850MK2 that I suggested, or did you get a Marantz one for the CD62?
I obviously made the wrong assumption.
Looking at the photo of the inside, that you posted elsewhere, it appears to have the same internal plastic bracing structure as the 624.
Bricolo's CD62
How is this structure attached to the metal case? Is it a plastic structure inside a metal case or is it a plastic structure with a metal u shaped lid? How is the base constructed?
This info might help us improve the case of both machines.
Well done! You got a bargain.
Looks like the main PCB is almost the same as that in the 624 - except that my DAC and output satge are mounted on the main PCB.
Even the connector which the CD62 uses to join the two boards, is present in the CD624 - an easy place to access I2S. Are you planning to put another DAC inside the CD62?
There are eleven of these on the main PCB - maybe less in the 62 as the DAC is on another board.
What is the sound of the CD62 like at the moment?
Bernhard reckons that the CDM4 is "mediocre" because it doesn't have a brushless motor or a capacitor in place to suppress the noise produced by this inferior motor. While he maintains there is a remedy for this and an upgrade for the CDM4, he seems reluctant to part with any more information.
No problem, Fin
Yes I'm using the CD850MKII's service manual. It's a good help. Nearly everything seems similar (the only differences I've noticed are in the FTS and display+buttons borads)
Yes, if by plastic you meaned the bracing, so yes it's plastic (not sure it's worse, plastic may have more damped resonances). But the outside (U shaped top), meatal bottom plate, the front and rear plate are also metal. That's what I call a metal case, for me the casing is the outside. Maybe we misunderstood.
Yes I'm planning to change the DAc, for the momment I'm trying to get Rudolf's super pair IV to work
I have a +3V DC offset on the output, whatever I do with the pot.
The sound is good, but I'm no reference. This one is my first real cd player.
Bernhard said:
Yes, for sure
I got one and you don't, who can be sure?
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