Re: Re: Jean-Paul
Hi Fin,
I can try to tell you what I think of the 1Bit DAC's, but Jean-Paul is better at this than I am. I can only say that I bought a DAC7 to replace the DAC in my partners CD-Player and after a few months she wanted it the way it was befor cause it did'n sound better.
And I had to agree, it was not good!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
Fin said:
Hi Fin,
I can try to tell you what I think of the 1Bit DAC's, but Jean-Paul is better at this than I am. I can only say that I bought a DAC7 to replace the DAC in my partners CD-Player and after a few months she wanted it the way it was befor cause it did'n sound better.
And I had to agree, it was not good!
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
If CDM 4 is mediocre I truely wonder how mediocre a CDM 12 or even CD Pro is. Maybe some mechanics are more mediocre that others ???
Only VRDS mechanics are real good IMO ( I have no real experience with the CEC cdplayers ). However the used DAC's in those cdplayers are less than mediocre and the lasers fail earlier than those in CDM 4. The newer generation mechanics in CD723 live a bit longer than their predecessors but still leave a lot wish for. Mechanical/pcb/whatever quality of those flimsy boxes is Mediocre with a capital.
So please tips on which newer mechanics are an alternative, I haven't found a good quality one yet....
Only VRDS mechanics are real good IMO ( I have no real experience with the CEC cdplayers ). However the used DAC's in those cdplayers are less than mediocre and the lasers fail earlier than those in CDM 4. The newer generation mechanics in CD723 live a bit longer than their predecessors but still leave a lot wish for. Mechanical/pcb/whatever quality of those flimsy boxes is Mediocre with a capital.
So please tips on which newer mechanics are an alternative, I haven't found a good quality one yet....
I stock new CDM 9 and those are better but definitely live shorter than any of the CDM 4 variants.
CDM 12 is *not* a swingarm mechanics, it is a poorly designed, short living result of engineering off-days. Just as the new lasers in Philips DVDplayers. One year, maybe two and they're gone ( in general, exceptions confirm the rule as they say ).
CDM 12 is *not* a swingarm mechanics, it is a poorly designed, short living result of engineering off-days. Just as the new lasers in Philips DVDplayers. One year, maybe two and they're gone ( in general, exceptions confirm the rule as they say ).
Fin, no worries mate (excuse my pitiful stereotyping) on your CD624 threadjacking.
Jean-Paul, same comment. Discuss mechs to your heart's content, it's all of interest in the general discussion of whether a cheap (or maybe expensive) player is worth the effort to mod and how far you can go.
I'm still amazed that nobody except KYW and Nuuk is prepared to offer any info on improving the mechanical aspects of CD players - maybe that is worth starting a new thread for?
Where does VAM1201 fit into the CDMxx lineup?
Jean-Paul, same comment. Discuss mechs to your heart's content, it's all of interest in the general discussion of whether a cheap (or maybe expensive) player is worth the effort to mod and how far you can go.
I'm still amazed that nobody except KYW and Nuuk is prepared to offer any info on improving the mechanical aspects of CD players - maybe that is worth starting a new thread for?
Where does VAM1201 fit into the CDMxx lineup?
Re: So considerate!
Konnichiwa,
Hmmm. Considered an E-Bay Shanling CD T-100 or SCD T-200? ;-)
Are you sure? If so first step in the reclamation project, replace all the ancient 'lytics.
Whenever supply voltages change drastically or the laser ages. Hard to say, every 4/5 years maybe if used often.
Now you are talking. But earlier you where asking how to bes power a rather junky DAC, not if it was a good idea to chuck it out and put something decent on a seperate PCB in....
Start with the DAC, it's a good place...
What for? The limit is the on-chip junk.
Ahhm, you actually cannot do that, trust me.
Well, key parts of the analog stage are on teh DAC chip, so it's "bypassing" the lot.
You don't HAVE to skip it. But do you want play around or get good sound?
Maybe. How good are you designing High End Gear? Small Mod's are one thing, effectively from scratch design another....
Generic CDM-12. Mine still works after almost 10 years. The good quality swingarm mechanisms are better, the lower grade ones IMHO not., too many cost saving compromising.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Fin said:
Hmmm. Considered an E-Bay Shanling CD T-100 or SCD T-200? ;-)
Fin said:This CDM4 has hardly been used.
Are you sure? If so first step in the reclamation project, replace all the ancient 'lytics.
Fin said:How often would adjustment be required?
Whenever supply voltages change drastically or the laser ages. Hard to say, every 4/5 years maybe if used often.
Fin said:The SAA7310 decoder has 1*fs I2S out and the SAA7321 DAC has 4*fs I2S out - allowing the use of many multibit DACs, and O/S or Non O/S. Maybe extreme - but it could even be possible to have three different approaches to D/A conversion in one CDP.
Now you are talking. But earlier you where asking how to bes power a rather junky DAC, not if it was a good idea to chuck it out and put something decent on a seperate PCB in....
Fin said:
Start with the DAC, it's a good place...
Fin said:
What for? The limit is the on-chip junk.
Fin said:
Ahhm, you actually cannot do that, trust me.
Fin said:
Well, key parts of the analog stage are on teh DAC chip, so it's "bypassing" the lot.
Fin said:
You don't HAVE to skip it. But do you want play around or get good sound?
Fin said:and connect a TDA1541 to the SAA7321 or SAA7310, or a SM5842/PCM63 combination to the SAA7310, then it could be a worthwhile project?
Maybe. How good are you designing High End Gear? Small Mod's are one thing, effectively from scratch design another....
Fin said:
Generic CDM-12. Mine still works after almost 10 years. The good quality swingarm mechanisms are better, the lower grade ones IMHO not., too many cost saving compromising.
Sayonara
Now we are talking!
Hi Bernhard
This was my understanding after reading a lot of related threads on this forum. It is also one of the main reasons I thought the CD624 would be worth keeping.
I'm quite happy to leave things as they are - if everyone else is - and if it's not breaking too many of the forum rules.
Hi Dave
Stereo-typing - the first part of the word is applicable - (but my typing is bad). Actually, I'm not a genuine Ozzie, but I do love some of the fair dinkum expressions.
For mechanical upgrades, I have mainly thought about strengthening the base and providing some shielding at the same time. The plan is to add a 3 - 5mm aluminium plate to the base and back plate. Shielding could then be applied to the inside of the case in the form of copper or aluminium sheeting/foil. All of the shielding, the base, and backplate could be joined together with strips of copper to provide a complete metal enclosure.
Another thought was to add small rubber/polyeurothane washers on top of the supports for the pcb. I have no idea if this would be good or bad - but it seems to make sense.
Not sure if I'm game, at this stage, to start pulling the mechanism out or apart to do specific mechanical mods there - but if I end up doing Bernhards suggested conversion - it might be worth looking at.
Hi Thorsten
Yes - there are six Shanling CDPs on E-Bay at present. Three are in the UK and range in price from GBP300 to GBP1,000. The other three are in th US and range in price from US$1,500 to US$1,700. I wonder how heavy they are and what it would cost to ship them around the world. But this would defeat the whole purpose of DIY for me.
Absolutley sure! I bought it new in 1991 and it has spent much of the time since then in storage.
So - it's not really a problem.
Exactly - I asked how to best power the existing DAC - not if it was a good idea to chuck it out.
However, I do appreciate your additional suggestions.
OK!
The final ones can be bypassed at pins 10 and 44 - but, as you have already said, the ones before these that are used for I/V, cannot be bypassed - so maybe there is no point.
Yes - but the SAA7321/2/3 can be used just as a filter, as in the Philips CD850MK2, Marantz CD62, Arcam Delta 70.2/70.3........
Both. I would like to turn what I have got, into the best it can be.
Do I have to be good at designing High End Gear? A lot of people buy DAC kits and learn from building them. I could buy Guido Tent's Tube DAC Digital PCB, place it in the convenient space in the CD624 and connect the I2S from the SAA7310 directly to the SM5842. This could end up being the final destiny of the CD624 - but sorting out many of the other issues with this CDP seems to be more logical. When I have learned how to build good power supplies, fix the groundplane, apply good decoupling, get the servos working at their best and hear how good or bad the SAA7321 sounds under optimum conditions - then I would like to evaluate which way to go. Fortunately, all of the parts purchased or built (clock, power supplies, etc.), are applicabe to the SAA7321, TDA1541 or PCM63 based DACs.
I still don't see the point in dismissing a perfectly functional CDM4 with a known history, only to replace it with someone else's offcast unknown.
Hi Bernhard
This was my understanding after reading a lot of related threads on this forum. It is also one of the main reasons I thought the CD624 would be worth keeping.
jean-paul said:
I'm quite happy to leave things as they are - if everyone else is - and if it's not breaking too many of the forum rules.
Hi Dave
Dave S said:
Stereo-typing - the first part of the word is applicable - (but my typing is bad). Actually, I'm not a genuine Ozzie, but I do love some of the fair dinkum expressions.
For mechanical upgrades, I have mainly thought about strengthening the base and providing some shielding at the same time. The plan is to add a 3 - 5mm aluminium plate to the base and back plate. Shielding could then be applied to the inside of the case in the form of copper or aluminium sheeting/foil. All of the shielding, the base, and backplate could be joined together with strips of copper to provide a complete metal enclosure.
Another thought was to add small rubber/polyeurothane washers on top of the supports for the pcb. I have no idea if this would be good or bad - but it seems to make sense.
Not sure if I'm game, at this stage, to start pulling the mechanism out or apart to do specific mechanical mods there - but if I end up doing Bernhards suggested conversion - it might be worth looking at.
Hi Thorsten
Yes - there are six Shanling CDPs on E-Bay at present. Three are in the UK and range in price from GBP300 to GBP1,000. The other three are in th US and range in price from US$1,500 to US$1,700. I wonder how heavy they are and what it would cost to ship them around the world. But this would defeat the whole purpose of DIY for me.
Absolutley sure! I bought it new in 1991 and it has spent much of the time since then in storage.
So - it's not really a problem.
Exactly - I asked how to best power the existing DAC - not if it was a good idea to chuck it out.
However, I do appreciate your additional suggestions.
Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Start with the DAC, it's a good place...
OK!
The final ones can be bypassed at pins 10 and 44 - but, as you have already said, the ones before these that are used for I/V, cannot be bypassed - so maybe there is no point.
Yes - but the SAA7321/2/3 can be used just as a filter, as in the Philips CD850MK2, Marantz CD62, Arcam Delta 70.2/70.3........
Both. I would like to turn what I have got, into the best it can be.
Do I have to be good at designing High End Gear? A lot of people buy DAC kits and learn from building them. I could buy Guido Tent's Tube DAC Digital PCB, place it in the convenient space in the CD624 and connect the I2S from the SAA7310 directly to the SM5842. This could end up being the final destiny of the CD624 - but sorting out many of the other issues with this CDP seems to be more logical. When I have learned how to build good power supplies, fix the groundplane, apply good decoupling, get the servos working at their best and hear how good or bad the SAA7321 sounds under optimum conditions - then I would like to evaluate which way to go. Fortunately, all of the parts purchased or built (clock, power supplies, etc.), are applicabe to the SAA7321, TDA1541 or PCM63 based DACs.
I still don't see the point in dismissing a perfectly functional CDM4 with a known history, only to replace it with someone else's offcast unknown.
You are a lucky guy
I dare to say the CDM 12 must be one of the most replaced mechanisms on this planet. I know CD63 owners that had to replace them twice !! First generations were plagued by the breaking spindle ( made of plastic ! ), that alone made impressive replacement numbers. Some newer variants are less crappy than their predecessors but nevertheless I avoid them out of quality concern. Only thing worse are the mechanics used for playback in cdrecorders Philips produces. Cost saving compromising is what CDM 12 made see the light ( and CDrom applications of course ). Just see how the laser bearing is made
Its predecessor CDM 9 was much better but too expensive to produce, just as CDM 4 which was already a costsaving excercise. The most expensive to produce was CDM 1 for various reasons.Last time I ordered CDM 12.3 they costed about 40 euro ( complete mechanism with laser ). A new CDM 4 or 9 was about 40 to 50 euro more expensive IIRC......
Something to think about
Yesterday I bought a CD304mkII ( Nr. 3 in my collection ) for 17 (T)euros on a fleamarket.
Perfect condition, full aluminum chassis, cdm1 transport, good old TDA1541, double sided pcb, very nice sound....
IMHO it is lost time and money to play around with CD4XX, 5XX, 7XX series players.
Anyway the proposed mods will obviously end up as rat nests.
Also got two CDpro/proII (?) transports as B&O spare parts marked as VAMsomething...
Does CDpro have linear magnet laser transport ??? These don't.
Yesterday I bought a CD304mkII ( Nr. 3 in my collection ) for 17 (T)euros on a fleamarket.
Perfect condition, full aluminum chassis, cdm1 transport, good old TDA1541, double sided pcb, very nice sound....
IMHO it is lost time and money to play around with CD4XX, 5XX, 7XX series players.
Anyway the proposed mods will obviously end up as rat nests.
Also got two CDpro/proII (?) transports as B&O spare parts marked as VAMsomething...
Does CDpro have linear magnet laser transport ??? These don't.
Re: Something to think about
Glad you think of it like that, it leaves that other series to us The thread *is* about CD7xx so please let's keep to that subject and things that have to do with these cdplayers.
Although I like a very tidy cdplayer I prefer a cdplayer with controlled ratsnests that sounds excellent to one that looks tidy but sounds less good....
Bernhard, if you read the label on the CD Pro you'll see the number written behind the VAM label. I don't have to tell you these are the professional newer versions of CDM 12 as the looks of VAM mechanics tell more than a 1000 words. I did not keep pace with all its incarnations/versions but enough info can be found here if you put some effort in it.
Bernhard said:
Glad you think of it like that, it leaves that other series to us
The thread *is* about CD7xx so please let's keep to that subject and things that have to do with these cdplayers.Although I like a very tidy cdplayer I prefer a cdplayer with controlled ratsnests that sounds excellent to one that looks tidy but sounds less good....
Bernhard, if you read the label on the CD Pro you'll see the number written behind the VAM label. I don't have to tell you these are the professional newer versions of CDM 12 as the looks of VAM mechanics tell more than a 1000 words. I did not keep pace with all its incarnations/versions but enough info can be found here if you put some effort in it.
We have chosen our projects
I wish those machines were so easily available here.
I think Dave and I have already decided to keep our respective CD players. Sure - there are better models out there with better mechanisms and chipsets and more potential to sound better to some people - but that will always be the case.
I don't see why it has to end up as a rats nest.
Are you going to tell us how to do the upgrade to the CDM4?
Or are you just passing through this thread making negative comments without any constructive input?
"The Controlled Ratsnest". I would like to reserve that title for a thread in the future, where I will report on the progress of the CD624.
Bernhard said:
I wish those machines were so easily available here.
I think Dave and I have already decided to keep our respective CD players. Sure - there are better models out there with better mechanisms and chipsets and more potential to sound better to some people - but that will always be the case.
I don't see why it has to end up as a rats nest.
Are you going to tell us how to do the upgrade to the CDM4?
Or are you just passing through this thread making negative comments without any constructive input?
"The Controlled Ratsnest". I would like to reserve that title for a thread in the future, where I will report on the progress of the CD624.
What 'lytics to use?
What is a good gereral approach for this?
I suppose we have covered a lot of this in the discussion on power supplies and transformers. Just to re-cap (another pun!) and make sure we haven't missed anything:-
Analogue stage - Op Amp
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF: BC Components 037 or audio grade caps.
Decoupling: 100uF: Audio grade caps
DAC
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF: BC Components 037 or Os-Cons.
Decoupling: 22uF: Os-Cons. What about the analogue side of the DAC? What if the original values are different to this?
Digital filter and decoder
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF:
Decoupling: 100uF: Os-Con? What about Rubycon ZA??
Servos
Power supplies: 10,000uF: Panasonic FC???? What else??
Around the regulators: up to ??uF
Decoupling: ???
The rest ot the CDP
As standard?????
Any other experiences or comments applicable to these budget CDPs would be most welcome.
I've just added up the the cost of replacing all 'lytics and the cost of the new ones for the additional transformers. It starts to get a little bit pricey when top notch caps are included. Any good strategies for using good cheaper units like BC 037 and Rubycon ZA instead of some of the costlier items would also be great.
What is a good gereral approach for this?
I suppose we have covered a lot of this in the discussion on power supplies and transformers. Just to re-cap (another pun!) and make sure we haven't missed anything:-
Analogue stage - Op Amp
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF: BC Components 037 or audio grade caps.
Decoupling: 100uF: Audio grade caps
DAC
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF: BC Components 037 or Os-Cons.
Decoupling: 22uF: Os-Cons. What about the analogue side of the DAC? What if the original values are different to this?
Digital filter and decoder
Power supplies: 470uF and 4700uF: Panasonic FC????
Around the regulators: up to 100uF:
Decoupling: 100uF: Os-Con? What about Rubycon ZA??
Servos
Power supplies: 10,000uF: Panasonic FC???? What else??
Around the regulators: up to ??uF
Decoupling: ???
The rest ot the CDP
As standard?????
Any other experiences or comments applicable to these budget CDPs would be most welcome.
I've just added up the the cost of replacing all 'lytics and the cost of the new ones for the additional transformers. It starts to get a little bit pricey when top notch caps are included. Any good strategies for using good cheaper units like BC 037 and Rubycon ZA instead of some of the costlier items would also be great.
Re: What 'lytics to use?
Konnichiwa,
Either straight replacement with equivalents or carefull upgrades.
For upgrades I'd put Sanyo Os-Con in the digital section, Elna Silmic (or Black Gate NX-HiQ/NX/N) in the Analogue stages (unless you replace them anyway, then just use generic Low-Z 'lytics) and Panasonic FA/FC in the actual supplies and "secondary" positions. Anyway that is how I approach "recapping" old machines, it keeps the order quanteties for each item high, prices low tends to work well and keeps logistic headaches to a minimum.
Hence my point to do all that work only on a platfor that's "worth it". More modern players tend to have much fewer IC's and fewer PSU Nodes, which makes them a more effective modification platform.
Os-Con's cost only fractionally more than ZA's, if you shop around well. Silmics are definitly worth the extra, which is fractional over good low Z types. Just avoid buying from "High End Audio" scalpers and find the generic electronic suppliers carying them.
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Fin said:
Either straight replacement with equivalents or carefull upgrades.
For upgrades I'd put Sanyo Os-Con in the digital section, Elna Silmic (or Black Gate NX-HiQ/NX/N) in the Analogue stages (unless you replace them anyway, then just use generic Low-Z 'lytics) and Panasonic FA/FC in the actual supplies and "secondary" positions. Anyway that is how I approach "recapping" old machines, it keeps the order quanteties for each item high, prices low tends to work well and keeps logistic headaches to a minimum.
Fin said:
Hence my point to do all that work only on a platfor that's "worth it". More modern players tend to have much fewer IC's and fewer PSU Nodes, which makes them a more effective modification platform.
Fin said:
Os-Con's cost only fractionally more than ZA's, if you shop around well. Silmics are definitly worth the extra, which is fractional over good low Z types. Just avoid buying from "High End Audio" scalpers and find the generic electronic suppliers carying them.
Sayonara
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.